Discussion in 'Europe and Russia' started by lcafanboy, Apr 8, 2017.

  1. lcafanboy

    lcafanboy Senior Member Senior Member

    Mar 24, 2013
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    A Mikoyan MiG-29 Air Superiority Fighter - How Malaysia can keep its MiGs and Save billions - More than 30 nations either operate or have operated the MiG-29 "Fulcrum" fighter jets
    by Rakesh Krishnan Simha
    The nearly $300 million French Rafale is a luxury the Royal Malaysian Air Force can ill afford when cheaper and arguably better Russian options are available.
    Malaysia is looking for a replacement for its twenty-two year old MiG-29 fleet. France wants to sell its Rafale medium fighter to the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF). Having tasted success in the Malaysian market by bagging an order for four A400M military transport aircraft and two Scorpene submarines, France believes it is on a roll. No less than French President Francois Hollande landed in Kuala Lumpur in March 2017, offering industrial and credit inducements to get the Malaysians to pick the Rafale as the winner in its Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) competition.
    However, the Malaysians don’t seem to be in a big rush to order, especially at time when there’s a fighter glut globally. According to RMAF chief Tan Sri Roslan, Malaysia will take an informed decision after evaluating several types of fighter aircraft. “We are now in the final stages of studying which of the companies are able to meet with our requirements and the decision to be made is not for a short term,” he says.
    Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Razak agrees: “Although Malaysia is not ready yet, it will take note of the aircraft's success in several countries. We will take note of the possibility of that particular aircraft being the subject of cooperation and collaboration in those countries as well.”
    Rafale: Costliest Fighter on Earth
    At approximately $300 million per fighter, the Rafale will blow a hole the size of France in the Malaysian defense budget. Last year the Indian government after haggling with the manufacturer, Dassault, for four long years, brought down the price to $220 million. Malaysia doesn’t have India’s clout nor can it match the Indian order of 36 aircraft. The RMAF will buy only 18 jets – enough to replace its MiG-29 fleet. Kuala Lumpur could therefore end up paying closer to $300 million for each Rafale.
    That’s plane insanity. Fifth generation stealth jets like Russia’s PAK-FA and the American F-35 cost less than the Rafale. Malaysia may be an economic tiger but it doesn’t have that kind of cash to throw around. Countries like Malaysia with limited defense needs – and budgets – need a no-frills, honest fighter that will do the job of patrolling the country’s airspace without too much fuss.
    It is understandable that Malaysia would want to diversify its air force, but that is not a reason to splurge when cheaper and more effective alternatives are available.
    MiG-35: Six for the Price of a Rafale
    Compared to the almost gold-plated Rafale, the Russian MiG-35 is a bargain at approximately $50 million. The MiG-35 is a multi-role aircraft that can not only provide cover for ground troops by establishing air dominance, but also attack ground targets with a vast array of weapons.
    While some say it is a MiG-29 in new garb, in reality the MiG-35 is a vastly improved aircraft that’s 30 percent larger and is classified as a 4++ generation jet fighter. The Russian Air Force and Egypt have placed larger orders for the MiG-35 and next in line is Serbia.
    Sukhois: Tried and Tested
    If Malaysia wants air dominance but has no more faith in the MiG-29, then the Su-30MKM is a tried and tested option with a fearsome reputation. It is the most potent 4.5 Generation fighter in the world and could even take on the latest American stealth jets.
    Malaysian soldier armed with rifle stands on guard near Royal Malaysian Air Force Sukhoi Su-30MKM jet fighters at the 2007 Langkawi International Maritime & Aerospace Exhibition (LIMA 2007) in Malaysia. Source: Marina Lystseva/TASS
    The Su-30MKM, which the RMAF operates, costs only marginally more at $65 million per aircraft. To be sure, the Sukhoi belongs to an entirely different class of heavy aircraft that is costlier to operate and own than the lighter the MiG-29. But the RMAF does very limited flying (we’ll come to that in the next section) so deploying the Sukhoi instead of the MiG won’t add significantly to operational costs.
    What’s more, the Su-30MKM can be upgraded with some stealth features so if the RMAF decides to upgrade to Russia’s PAK-FA, the transition to stealth platforms would be smooth. Malaysia’s hopes of obtaining stealth aircraft from the U.S. are next to zero. The Korean stealth program is heavily dependent on American technology and security clearances. By expanding its Su-30MKM program, the RMAF will be well prepared for the rapidly evolving nature of air combat.
    MiG-29 Upgrade
    The most sensible option for Malaysia is to upgrade its existing MiG-29. Currently, half of the RMAF’s 18 MiGs are grounded, but Malaysia may have acted in haste by calling for their replacement. In comparison, India – the first export customer of the MiG-29 – has been flying the same aircraft a lot longer without permanently grounding any aircraft.
    In fact, the Malaysian MiGs have a lot of life left in them. According to Defense News, the current airframe life of the MiG-29 is pegged at 4000 flight hours, although the highest number of hours logged by any Malaysian MiG is just 1800 hours in 20 years of service. This clearly shows the RMAF trains an extremely limited number of hours.
    Declassified Soviet archives show a new picture about the air war over Korea in the 1950s. Source: USAF
    Two years ago Malaysia's Aerospace Technology Systems Corp (ATSC) had launched a bid to upgrade the MiG-29s for a fraction of the cost of a new fighter. Company CEO Mohammad Fadzar Suhada said the program was launched in conjunction with Russia’s MiG Corporation and the RMAF was in favor of it.
    According to Suhada, the ATSC’s program was similar to the MiG-29 upgrade being undertaken by India and was therefore a proven blueprint. “It is not an interim solution until MRCA comes along,” he said. “It is a medium- to long-term solution for Malaysia's fighter requirement.”
    Russian Support
    Even as the MRCA competition continues, the Russian side continues to be hopeful. Says Victor Chernov, Deputy Director General for marketing and sales at MiG Corporation: “Implementation of the project for modernization of MiG-29 aircraft will allow the RMAF to extend the life of the aircraft systems and make them more effective.”
    First up, the structural upgrade will increase the life of the airframe to 6,000 hours. The upgrade will equip the MiG-29 with air-to-ground capability, which Malaysia will find handy while dealing with insurgents. Larger fuel tanks will increase operational range by 30 per cent.
    Interestingly, ATSC was formed in 1994 as part of Malaysia's original purchase of the MiG-29, with 70 per cent of the equity owned by Malaysia and 30 per cent by Russian stakeholders. It was originally set up to support the MiGs and today also provides support for the RMAF's Sukhoi fleet.
    Unlike the Rafale, which will contribute nothing to the Malaysian economy, the MiG-29 upgrade program will not only save billions of dollars but also help Malaysians gain considerable technical experience.
    Service and Support
    As a large operator of Russian aircraft, India plays a key role in helping the RMAF maintain its Su-30MKM fleet. While Sukhoi supplies the major components, the aircraft’s canards, stabilizers and fins are manufactured by India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
    Sukhoi Su-30SM fighter aircraft of the Russkiye Vityazi (Russian Knights) aerobatic team perform at the 2017 Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition (LIMA), March 21, 2017. Source: Marina Lystseva/TASS
    In 2008 India accepted Malaysia’s request to train RMAF personnel on the operation and maintenance of its Sukhoi fighters. Subsequently, a composite team of flying and technical training instructors was deployed at Gong Kedah Base as part of the Indian Air Force Training Team.
    Support from India has been possible with Russian permission. But will France allow third-party support? Since the Rafale is not yet inducted in India and the first jets are likely only in 2019, India won't master Rafale support at least for another decade. So the Indian Air Force may not be able to service Malaysian Rafales even if France is okay with it.
    The RMAF’s dalliance with hyper expensive French and British aircraft needs to be seen in the backdrop of Malaysia cutting its defense budget by 12.7 per cent to $3.41 billion in 2017, as the country grapples with growing public discontent over rising living costs. If sound economics were a factor in Malaysia’s defense procurement, the Rafale would have crash-landed a long time ago.

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  3. Bahamut

    Bahamut Senior Member Senior Member

    Oct 31, 2015
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    somewhere in space time
    Its for Malaysia not for India
  4. Bornubus

    Bornubus Chodi Bhakt & BJPig Hunter Senior Member

    Oct 13, 2015
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    Hope it don't get crash within few months or year in Indian service.
  5. Tarun Kumar

    Tarun Kumar Regular Member

    Dec 12, 2016
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    The article is a complete piece of Trash. Firstly F35 does not cost 100 million. 100 miliion is flyaway cost whereas 220 million cost of rafale is lifecycle cost. If we factor lifecycle, F35 will be closer to rafale cost which India paid. This however does not factor the enormous advantage of autonomy which India has if we purchase french stuff unlike the kill switch infested american stuff. Moreover Mig 35 has a major weakness-its engine. The biggest problem with Russian engines is their low MBTU. For Mig, its mere 3000hours, whereas for rafale its 7000 hours. This already means for 1 mig , 2 rafales will always be available. Also in term of capability, no fighter comes close to rafale except F35. Rafales electronic sensor system is extremely advanced and at least 1 generation ahead of Russian counterpart. If France develops it further and we tie up with them, franlky we may not even need a fifth gen aircraft. 100-150 rafales will be much better than FGFA. Stealth is quite overated.
    Mikesingh likes this.
  6. Mikesingh

    Mikesingh Senior Member Senior Member

    Sep 7, 2015
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    Tora Bora
    Spot on!

    Secondly, as you mentioned, stealth is quite overrated. The new SAMs coming out like the Russian S-500 systems can see through stealth with ease and has got the US air force worried too! The F-22, the greatest and costliest stealth fighter ever produced will stick out like a sore thumb in the sky! Within 5-10 years, stealth would be passé. So is it worth investing in and paying an enormous amount for stealth capability which would soon be worthless as tits on a boar hog?
  7. Immanuel

    Immanuel Senior Member Senior Member

    May 16, 2011
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    Kill Switches wouldn't apply to India since none of the US products in India have any US comms or datalinks or other sensitive goodies which would allow such a kill switch. F-35 in India will hence end up with plenty of local stuff much like the Israeli version. For Mig the 3000 hrs is the life for overhaul which when done is still cheaper and the upgrades can come faster. For Rafale, the MLU will have to wait for 7000 hrs and during such an MLU you'll pay an additional 70% value of a new Rafale for upgrade. MTBFs are relative on usage, if Rafales are used quite like the MKI, you can be sure the availability will struggle to be around 60-70%.

    Malaysia should order more Super MKI based on upgrades that HAL will implement shortly, this will put the MKI over and significantly more powerful than the Rafale in over all capability. Apart from some VLO tech Rafale is overrated and can be defeated and has been done so by the MKI many a time. It is quite ridiculous to say 5th gen aircraft are not needed. Sure new gen radars have plenty of counter stealth capabilities but with already stealthy air frames like F-35, F-22 and combined with next gen radar defeating EW solutions it is possible to delay/ deteriorate radar performance largely, while using stand off stealthy munitions you can still be quite effective.

    You also claim 100-150 Rafales will be better than similar number of FGFA again is entirely the wrong premise. FGFA from the start is a VLO/stealth air frame, combined with next gen GaN based sensors and a wider set of weaponry including Brahmos etc will be a far more formidable aircraft
    Bahamut likes this.
  8. Vinod DX9

    Vinod DX9 Senior Member Senior Member

    Apr 4, 2017
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    Six Mig-35 in a price of a Rafale? And maintenance cost? Total lifetime cost? How many Rafales can we buy instead of a Mig if life time cost is calculated?

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