Frontier Infrastructure: What's up on the PRC or Chinese side?

Discussion in 'China' started by pmaitra, Jun 22, 2013.

  1. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    The road pattern at the LAC near DBO/Depsang plain is as follows. There are two roads that run for a few km parallel to the LAC. One is a big lollipop loop in the south and the northern one is a T.
    [​IMG]



    The "T" roads that the Chinese have here and elsewhere at the LAC have a characteristic loop at the end to allow patroling vehicles to do a U-turn and retuen to patrol up the other way. Here is an enlargement of the southern end of the T road in the above image. The road is about 5-6 meters wide
    [​IMG]

    To my mind this pattern of roads at the LAC indicate the following things
    1. The fact that it runs parallel to the LAC appears like a de facto acceptance of the LAC as it is.
    2. The Chinese keep a close watch on the LAC by patrolling in vehicles. I wonder if the drivers have oxygen bottles while they patrol. I have read that O2 bottles are provided for some patrols. That is good for soldier's comfort, but it only delays acclimatization
    3. If the parallel roads are a de facto acceptance of the LAC, then the 18 km provocation westwards on the Depsang plain mean that the Chinese are constantly on the lookout to extend their territory and will simply move across if they feel an area is unattended - somewhat like a Kargil intrusion. IOW they cannot be trusted.
     
  2. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The maps at Post # 21 are most interesting.

    Could you also append such maps for all the areas of the LAC. I know I am asking for too much, but then it will be a great reference.

    @Singh, @Yusuf,

    Once this thread runs its life, it would be wise to Archive it. The maps and the discourse is more exhaustive than what is available in the open fora.


    On coming into High Altitude, one has to undergo a minimum Three Stage Acclimatisation before one can operate.

    Thereafter, one is 'normal' and can undertake all type of work to include heavy duty work, though one would still require more frequent breaks than one would require in the plains.

    The locals are of course a different kettle of fish and display greater efficiency than the plainsmen.

    O2 bottles are not required in vehicles as such, but carrying them is a good precaution.

    Notwithstanding, there is no guarantee that High Altitude ailments, to include pulmonary oedema, will not strike you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  3. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Ray saab - than you for this valuable post. This is exactly the sort of information I was searching for but could never find.

    Each branch road from the G 219 to the LAC in Aksai Chin varies from 120 to over 200 km in length and none of them are "pucca" all the way. All cross river beds at some place or other, All are above 5 km high in altitude. Below is an image of a truck on the track from the DBO area to G 219. The truck appears to be going to the G 219 and is 15-20 km away from the G 219. The track is about as wide as the truck - i.e. 4 meters and is hardly a highway. It appears to be a kutcha track. A trail of what might be dust is seen behind the truck.
    [​IMG]

    Note that this truck is on the shortest road from the G 219 to the LAC. The lines I have drawn along the highway indicate the length of this road - so the distance from the G 219 to LAC to be 170 km on this track/road. There is another road/track to the south leading from the G 219 to the DBP/Depsang area. That is over 220 km long.
     
  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    @bennedose.

    The Methodology that I have appended, is a rough and ready reckoner and is not universally applicable.

    The track that you show on that map will surely make movement slower than what maybe predicted.

    What is important to note is that more the passes of vehicles over these types of tracks, the worse the surface becomes, and in the end, if not maintained, they can even vanish!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  5. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    No Sir you are not asking for too much. My intention is to try and provide everyone with exactly this information. And hopefully after I am done with Aksai Chin I can do the same for the Tibet side of the Arunachal Pradesh border. Of course another name for Tibet is "North Arunachal" LOL!

    I hope you have Google Earth installed on your computer. If not you wil have to install it - it is free.

    To see all the roads and marks I have made please download the following file
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bZW1jckYxRWVWTWM/edit?usp=sharing

    Click on the downloaded file and it will open in Google Earth to display all the marks I have made. it looks like a confusing mess but you can see details if you zoom in
     
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  6. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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  7. sesha_maruthi27

    sesha_maruthi27 Senior Member Senior Member

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  8. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Ray, Tibetans have a genetic mutation dating from 10,000 years ago that allows them to survive at altitude better than plainsmen.
     
  9. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Why not take the Indian general at his word. He is our general and we must trust him in peacetime as we must trust him at wartime.
     
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  10. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    Very appropriate.

    Salman should learn of this and he will be wiser! [​IMG]
     
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  11. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    It would be wise if there are no political interference in military plannings, which is highly unlikely when talking about present Gov..

    ===========================

    [​IMG]

    Srinagar-Leh national highway widened for T-72 tanks

    ===========================

    About Light tanks, Its not in option for us..

    But other sides is well prepared..

    ------------

    Though this is an off-topic, And want to keep this minimum..

     
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  12. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Towards Sikkim area, It is proposed long time back, I am assuming works is already on the way that too is some time back..

    [​IMG]

     
  13. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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  14. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    Kunal sir may be for this reason we have purchased those US CBU-100 Cluster Bomb.
     
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  15. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Looking at the terrain in the Aksai Chin area I doubt if tanks would be appropriate for various reasons. Aksai Chin is a plateau and it ends on the Indian side in mountainous terrain with alternating high mountains and deep valleys. Because Aksai chin is flat in some (but not all) areas it is conducive to road transport although the Chinese do not appear to have built pukka highways. So while I am sure tanks would be useful on the plateau itself, the logistics of keeping anything other than a small number there would be impractical. No road through Aksai Chin fails to pass through mountains or over rivers

    On the other hand I have always felt that the terrain is great for fast lightly armoured vehicles and a special breed of armed helicopter that can operate effectively that those altitudes. I suspect our Dhruv would do well here. Less sure about Apaches.

    Could the Chinese bring tanks to the area? I am sure they can bring them, but their logistics lines are also over 150 km in length through rough terrain situated at 5000 plus meters. Interdiction of supply roads would leave the tanks vulnerable to air attack in the open spaces of Aksai Chin. besides - once the tanks get further west towards India you get mountains that tanks cannot negotiate.
     
  16. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    In the DBO area, about 70 km from the LAC are these buildings, almost certainly Chinese military - many over 100 feet long. The total floor area is over 20,000 sq feet maybe double that if there are two floors as appears to be the case. I suspect this is accomodation for at least a thousand men.

    kmz file:
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4IY8u2bRm80bERRdm11aWs/edit?usp=sharing
    [​IMG]
     
  17. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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  18. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    I am unsure of the exact location of Raki Nala, but I know approximately where it is and it is east of this area. There is a river that flows east across the LAC from the Depsang plain area that joins the Karakax rtiver a little south of the 75 meter bridge. Most of the Chinese installations and buildings are along this river all the way to the LAC, and that includes 2 smaller (20-25 meter) bridges, several crossings across river beds and a barnch road that leads a tunnel - all of which I have marked on the map/kmz.
     
  19. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Raki Nala
    Holistic map (very important)

    That is the Kizil Jilga.

    Understandably. It is a river valley, and gives direct access to DBO and Depsang Plain area.
     
  20. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Does this mean that Raki Nala is part of the. watershed of the Tarim basin?

    OK got it - just saw that very informative holistc map.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013

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