"F-22 raptor " to India ?

aditya bhatia

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"Muilenburg also flagged the F-22 Raptor, a fifth-generation fighter jointly developed with Lockheed Martin Corp, as a future sales prospect for India, calling it "an area of future investment for which we are interested".

http://www.reuters.com/article/india-boeing-superhornet-idUSKCN0VC0IB

^will they sell their top secret plane to India ?? USA has been reluctant to provide the F-22 even to allies like Japan , Israel & Britain .

what is the meaning of "Idea of future investment " ? possibility of make in India ??

and we need this plane or Pak-fa is sufficient for us ?

is it just an American strategy to sell F-18 ??
"Muilenburg also flagged the F-22 Raptor, a fifth-generation fighter jointly developed with Lockheed Martin Corp, as a future sales prospect for India, calling it "an area of future investment for which we are interested".

http://www.reuters.com/article/india-boeing-superhornet-idUSKCN0VC0IB

^will they sell their top secret plane to India ?? USA has been reluctant to provide the F-22 even to allies like Japan , Israel & Britain .

what is the meaning of "Idea of future investment " ? possibility of make in India ??

and we need this plane or Pak-fa is sufficient for us ?

is it just an American strategy to sell F-18 ??
Better stay away from american fighters for a while.first of all it would be offered at a very high price and even if its at a lower reasonable price still are we ready to trust americans.but if they offer to built these fighters in india under make in india and trannsfer the technology which i doubt they would.in my prospect say no if they offer
 

sasum

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Ha Ha Ha Ha :rofl:Good one bro. A Death Star would be a fine addition to our arsenal.

Now moving on to serious matters-
If anybody has read my previous posts it's quite obvious that I simply hate the JSF F-35 no matter how many fucktards defend it with all their lame ass arguments of 'ooohhh it's stealth' or 'wow look it's got all these sensors which can look over and beyond'. To hell with stealth & sensors that plane is a sitting duck and simply cannot fight an aerial battle simple.

But the F-22...oh man! that's a completely different story. What wouldn't I do to get my hands on this marvel of a fighter.

Yes all the concerns regarding it being super duper expensive and a maintenance nightmare is 100% correct beyond doubt.
But what is also 101% correct is that it's the world's best fighter any given day. It was built to fly high and fly fast and beat the enemy to pulps without even being seen and it does a mighty fine job of that. Not to mention that it's a hell lotta better than the F-35 in a dogfight. The fuckin' Ferrari of the skies indeed.

For once I wouldn't mind the govt. coffers running dry to acquire this masterpiece. I know it's like one of those guilty pleasures which is gonna bankrupt you but hey can't help it, can we?

In the end it's all just wishful thinking anyways. The F-22 is banned under American federal law and I don't see it being lifted anytime soon. True initially the F-15 & F-16 were also under export ban but was later lifted due to upcoming competition from the Russian Su-27 and MiG-29 who were gonna mass export downgraded variants anyways regardless of the Americans. The Raptor as of date has no known competition and I can safely say wouldn't have any till 2030 at the earliest.

Bhakts who are worried about China stealing a march on us with their stealth J-31 and J-20 fighters don't get your panties in a wad, here's their radar signature



and this high resolution close up



:lol:

Need I say more...ultimately it's Chinese man. The nut bolt might fall apart anytime. We all know how capable the Pakis JF-17 fighters are. They don't even have the balls to go toe-to-toe against our Tejas.

Even if the Raptor is cleared for sale it would be sold only to Israel and Japan and maybe the UK at a later stage. India would be quite down the list. Sorry for bustin' all ye daisies' fuckin' bubble but that's the simple fact. India ain't a hotshot yet on the global stage. Maybe by 2050 according to PwC but by then the Americans would have moved on to 7th gen.

Till then keep dreamin' and believe in the PAKFA even if we don't get it by 2030 :india:. Not to mention HAL AMCA. God only knows if it'll ever get off the drawing board.
Proponents of Pak Fa point out that Raptor doesnt have 3d trust vectoring nozzle and its APG-77 radar has only 250 km range against Pak's 400 km, that Raptor lacks IRST etc. But both boeing & Lockheed Martin are quietly upgrading avionics to ensure that at any point of time Raptor will be a few steps ahead of Pak Fa.
 

SajeevJino

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Proponents of Pak Fa point out that Raptor doesnt have 3d trust vectoring nozzle and its APG-77 radar has only 250 km range against Pak's 400 km, that Raptor lacks IRST etc. But both boeing & Lockheed Martin are quietly upgrading avionics to ensure that at any point of time Raptor will be a few steps ahead of Pak Fa.
All these will fail when they hit by a AMRAAM launched by Raptor. Raptor use it's Stealth and LPI radar to lock the PAK FA in medium range, while PAKFA can rely on the IRST to find the Raptor
 

Peter

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Bhakts who are worried about China stealing a march on us with their stealth J-31 and J-20 fighters don't get your panties in a wad, here's their radar signature



and this high resolution close up



:lol:
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::doh:

No offense,but where did you get this picture that you claim to be a radar signature of a Chinese plane.


This is a movie still from
Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Powers:_The_Spy_Who_Shagged_Me


https://www.google.co.in/search?q=A...ved=0ahUKEwjtrbyksazMAhXYCo4KHVV1C7UQ_AUIBigB



This is not the signature of any flying plane let alone a Chinese warplane.

P.S. I have no idea or opinion of F-22 or PAK FA.
 

Bahamut

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All these will fail when they hit by a AMRAAM launched by Raptor. Raptor use it's Stealth and LPI radar to lock the PAK FA in medium range, while PAKFA can rely on the IRST to find the Raptor
Buddy even PAK FA has LPI.LPI stands for low probability of Intercept and it does by changing the frequency of the radar but F 35 has locked on it so even PAK FA will lock on it .Radar can be detected as it is a active sensor while IRST is passive sensor .By the way PAK FA has sensor and missile which lock on Electronic signature like radar ,jamming, communication etc also it has UV sensor giving it better range then IR sensor.
 

sasum

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:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::doh:

No offense,but where did you get this picture that you claim to be a radar signature of a Chinese plane.


This is a movie still from
Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Powers:_The_Spy_Who_Shagged_Me


https://www.google.co.in/search?q=A...ved=0ahUKEwjtrbyksazMAhXYCo4KHVV1C7UQ_AUIBigB



This is not the signature of any flying plane let alone a Chinese warplane.

P.S. I have no idea or opinion of F-22 or PAK FA.
Lol....no body took the image seriously. It was just usual bulletin-board bantering. Btw, JF-31 looks entirely different in reality.
images.jpeg
 

SajeevJino

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Buddy even PAK FA has LPI.LPI stands for low probability of Intercept and it does by changing the frequency of the radar .
Oh really .. I really don't know about LPI

but F 35 has locked on it so even PAK FA will lock on it .Radar can be detected as it is a active sensor while IRST is passive sensor .By the way PAK FA has sensor and missile which lock on Electronic signature like radar ,jamming, communication etc also it has UV sensor giving it better range then IR sensor
:hmm::hmm::hmm:
 

Bahamut

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But both boeing & Lockheed Martin are quietly upgrading avionics to ensure that at any point of time Raptor will be a few steps ahead of Pak Fa.
There is no upgrade for F 22 in near future ,USAF is struggling to maintain the present fleet.No amount of avionic can fix a hardware problrm
 

sasum

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By the way PAK FA has sensor which lock on Electronic signature
Which sensor it is?
F-22 has AN/ALR-94 passive radar receiver system, made by BAE systems, capable of detecting the radar signals in the environment. Composed of more than 30 antennae smoothly blended into the wings and fuselage. With greater range (250+ nmi) than the APG-77 AESA radar, it enables the F-22 to limit its own radar emission which might otherwise compromise its stealth. As the target approaches, AN/ALR-94 can cue the AN/APG-77 radar to keep track of its motion with a narrow beam, which can be as focused as 2° by 2° in azimuth and elevation, furthermore the ALR-94 is able to comunicate with the APG-77, allowing the F-22 to lock on targets without using the radar, making it even stealthier.
As for heat-seeking censors, deploying flares are the best counter-measure.
 

sasum

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There is no upgrade for F 22 in near future ,USAF is struggling to maintain the present fleet.No amount of avionic can fix a hardware problrm
The main problem in maintenance of Raptor is the stealth coating. It degrades easily and has to be redone frequently. I dont know any other major hardware problem F-22 is facing. Please provide link..I failed to find any.
 

SajeevJino

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Which sensor it is?
F-22 has AN/ALR-94 passive radar receiver system, made by BAE systems, capable of detecting the radar signals in the environment. Composed of more than 30 antennae smoothly blended into the wings and fuselage. With greater range (250+ nmi) than the APG-77 AESA radar, it enables the F-22 to limit its own radar emission which might otherwise compromise its stealth. As the target approaches, AN/ALR-94 can cue the AN/APG-77 radar to keep track of its motion with a narrow beam, which can be as focused as 2° by 2° in azimuth and elevation, furthermore the ALR-94 is able to comunicate with the APG-77, allowing the F-22 to lock on targets without using the radar, making it even stealthier.
As for heat-seeking censors, deploying flares are the best counter-measure.
Copied from Mention the source please
 

Bahamut

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F-22 has AN/ALR-94 passive radar receiver system, made by BAE systems, capable of detecting the radar signals in the environment.
Only a fool will use RADAR against F 22,PAK FA will not use it radar but relies on its passive sensor .F 22 will not use radar as it risk itself being tracked and locked on .Leaving it blind.
As for heat-seeking censors, deploying flares are the best counter-measure.
QWIP equipped IRST cannot be fooled by flares ,flares are use for missiles not to fool IRST of planes as they have enough computing power to differentiate between the two .
 

Bahamut

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Air Combat:
Russia’s PAK-FA versus the F-22 and F-35

Air Power Australia - Australia's Independent Defence Think Tank

Air Power Australia NOTAM
30th March, 2009


WGCDR Chris Mills, AM, BSc, MSc(AFIT), RAAF (Retd)

Contacts: Peter Goon
Carlo Kopp

Mob: 0419-806-476 Mob: 0437-478-224


The F-22 Raptor is the only US fighter design with the stealth, speed and agility to defeat the new Russian PAK-FA design. To be highly effective against the PAK-FA, it will need a range of upgrades, including a new technology infrared sensor. Depicted technicians at the USAF AEDC performing low observables testing on an electro-optical sensor fairing, developed for the AIRST sensor. The AIRST was deleted from the F-22 avionic suite during development as a cost saving measure (US Air Force image).

February 2010 APA Analyses Journal
Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA

Imagine an apocryphal story of three fighter pilots meeting in the bar at an air combat conference in Stockholm, in the year 2015. Chuck is a NATO F-22A Raptor pilot based in Germany, Boris an Su-35-1 Flanker E Plus pilot flying from one of the bases protecting Moscow, and Johan, a F-35A Lightning II pilot from the Netherlands. All are masters of their craft and after drinks, “merely to lubricate the vocal chords”, they do what fighter pilots all over the world do – swap stories and make claims about their beloved aircraft.
Chuck starts. “I’m king of the skies,” he claims. “I supercruise at 52,000 feet and Mach 1.7. Boris, I can see you from ~100 nm, and my AIM-120D launch range at this Mach is 70 nm. You are one dead Flanker.” Boris acknowledges the performance of the APG-77 and the Raptor, but replies, “Your missiles are easy to avoid. When you fire, my OLS-35 will see the flare, and I will turn away to out-run the missile. You need to fire closer than 50 nm – even then at 50,000 feet and Mach 1.2, my Flanker can out-turn your missile. If you are side or rear on I can get a lock-on at ~40 nm and I have a choice of seeker heads, so you might wear an R-77M in the backside.” “No way Boris,” Chuck replies, “I know that game. I’m head on and you can’t see me until about ~15 nm. If I have not killed you at 50 nautical, I’m outa there at the speed of heat.” Boris and Chuck concede that there might be a nil-all draw, with Chuck being untouchable because of the Raptor’s stealth, altitude and speed and the well defended Su-35-1 defeating the Raptor’s missiles [1].
Now Boris makes his point. “Comrade Johan, I have something special for you. My IRBIS-E will see you head-on at ~25nm, but I fly my boys very wide and share the paints on our digital network. At side and rear looks, I see you at ~45 nm and my ramjet RVV-AE-PDs can get you at that range.” “No way”, Johan responds, “my APG-81 radar will see you at ~75 nm and I can launch at 50 nm. If you fire, my DAS will see the missile at launch, so I’ll turn away to break lock”. “And my wingman will see you in the turn, computer network will still know where you are, and we will skewer you in the cross-fire” is Boris’s riposte, “and you will run out of missiles before I do, If I duck your AIM-120D shots, I will win easily”. They bicker about the strengths of their own aircraft and weaknesses of the other’s and Johan grudgingly agrees the Flanker might be the winner.
Chuck and Johan stay in the bar after Boris is unexpectedly ‘called away’ by men in dark coats, and agree that work needs to be done on improving the AIM-120D’s terminal lethality.
Essentially, this is a deadly play between stealth, agility, sensors and missiles. From the front quarter the Raptor’s 0.0001 square meter Radar Cross Section (RCS) and the Lightning II’s 0.001 square metres make them difficult targets. The Flanker-E Plus, while having a reduced radar signature, still has a residual RCS of about 2 square metres, such that the F-22A and the F-35 will see the Su-35-1 way beyond their missile launch range. The Su-35-1 struggles to see the F-22A on radar, but can find the F-35’s 0.01 square metre lower side and rear RCS. The AIM-120D is a fine missile, but the Su-35-1 has finer defences, so the missile kill probabilities are likely to be low. When out of missiles, the F-22 Raptor can escape. The F-35 Lightning II cannot.
A more likely future scenario is that Boris will be banned from subsequent air combat conferences, so we must rely on more conventional air combat operations analyses. If we move forward just a couple of years, say to the year 2017, and the PAK-FA is operational, there is a profound change in air combat engagements.
Suppose the Russians don’t quite master stealth to the degree of the F-22A, but manage a RCS of 0.01 square metres from all aspects. The F-22A’s APG-77 will detect the PAK-FA at ~40 nm and the F-35’s APG-81 at ~30 nm. Passive electronic surveillance might increase detection ranges, but this still makes long-range missile shots problematic, as tracking depends upon the opponent emitting, which smart opponents will try not to do.
The PAK-FA’s radar can be expected to be an improvement on the IRBIS-E so at front-on aspects might detect the F-22A at ~15 nautical miles and the F-35 at ~28 nautical miles; and from side and rear aspects, the F-22A at ~43 nautical miles and the F-35 at ~51 nautical miles.
Infrared sensors are the next growth area in air combat. Every air combat jet has unavoidable infrared signatures – converting kerosene into thrust at prodigious rates does that. The existing OLS-35, developed for the Su-35BM, is credited with the ability to detect a ‘fighter type’ target head on from 27 nautical miles, and from behind at around 50 nautical miles, through a 90° sector. It uses conventional detector technology, and provides similar performance to the Eurofighter Typhoon PIRATE infrared sensor. It is likely the PAK-FA will have infrared signature management as is found on the designs of the YF-23A, B-2A and the F-22A, but not on the F-35 [2].
The emerging technology of Quantum Well Imaging Photodetectors (QWIP) is set to cause an upset in this market sector.


Quantum Well Imaging Photodetectors


Advances in QWIP technology single chip imagers will see a new generation of infrared sensors deploy over the next decade. Not limited in infrared colour sensitivity like legacy bandgap imagers, QWIP imagers offer the potential to detect cooler targets are greater distances, and provide the high resolution required for standoff identification of targets. Above 10.2 micron band 10242 pixel longwave image produced by a US Army Research Lab / L-3 Cincinnati corrugated QWIP [no image enhancement applied], depicted below. QWIP technology is now available in the US, EU and Russia (Images refer Choi and Forrai, Corrugated quantum-well IR photodetectors see light in higher definition, 16 September 2008, SPIE Newsroom. DOI: 10.1117/2.1200808.1237.).



Legacy bandgap detector imagers cannot compete against the emerging higher resolution colour tuned QWIP imagers. Above: current podded variant of the longwave LM AAS-42 InfraRed Search Track sensor (C. Kopp image). Below: AAS-42 installation on the F-14D Tomcat, now retired (US Navy image).

QWIP based imaging Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) detectors can be “tuned” by design for sensitivity in a particular infrared band, using a fundamentally different detection technique to conventional “band gap” detectors where the material determines the colour sensitivity of the detector. First commercialised by Germany’s AIM/Diehl-BGT, QWIPs have since been adapted for ballistic missile defence applications. QWIPs have also been built to operate not only in the “conventional” midwave and longwave infrared bands, but also in the “very longwave” 15 micron band to detect very cool targets. QWIPs capable of simultaneously imaging in two, three or four infrared bands have also been manufactured and marketed. QWIP technology, therefore, opens up the potential for even greater detection ranges against targets cooler than what current production infrared sensors can track, and provide for much better infrared background rejection.
Consider a QWIP technology “OLS-50M” installed in the PAK-FA. Such a device could be design-optimised for simultaneous detection and tracking of aircraft exhausts, jet-plumes and missile flares to ranges of 70 nm and beyond – the limiting factors are the size of the optics, cooling system and detector area. Russia has decades of experience in the integration of infrared sensors into its weapons systems, and QWIPs could well become the primary sensor and radar the secondary. This means that the F-22A AN/ALR-94 will be denied signals to detect and track the PAK-FA.
The ‘shooting match’ shifts from radar-centric to ‘infrared centric’. The problem here is that the PAK-FA will have it, the F-22A does not, and the ability of the F-35 EOTS and DAS to make long range aircraft detections and guide weapons is at best ‘unproven’. The F-35 systems have not been designed to be highly sensitive at the task of searching and tracking distant aircraft at those infrared colours where aircraft and their jet engines emit most of their infrared energy. An understanding of the physics, or for the ever-hopeful, a simple Developmental Test and Evaluation exercise will demonstrate this.
With the Beyond-Visual-Range (BVR) radar detections being reduced to distances below 60 nautical miles and infrared sensor detection ranges growing beyond 50 nautical miles, a new generation of missiles will be required to dominate the battlespace.
Russian missile companies have shown much more flexibility and adaptability in the design of missiles, so the PAK-FA could have a new-generation of shorter range, but higher agility missiles – a fusion of the ideas in the R-74 and R-77M, with a diverse mix of seeker heads. These missiles will likely be cued by the IRST sensor, be equipped with inertial midcourse guidance and, probably, mid-course guidance update capability transmitted either by radio, or possibly infra-red laser or millimetric wave links.
Expect the PAK-FA to have vectored thrust and high levels of agility like the Flankers it is to either replace or complement. Long missile range requires large rocket or ram-jet motors and these heavy weapons lack the agility to pull high terminal ‘G’, and may be ‘ducked’ by the PAK-FA as easily as by the Su-35-1.
The PAK-FA will use a new super-cruising engine, based on technology from the Al-41F series, so its tactic might be to maintain combat speeds of about Mach 1.5 and use a more compact version of the ramjet RVV-AE-PD. A supersonic launch enables a ramjet to light without a powerful booster – thereby denying an opponent the detection of the usual missile launch flare.
Fights between the F-22A and the PAK-FA will be close, high, fast and lethal. The F-22A may get ‘first look’ with the APG-77, the Advanced Infra Red Search and Track (AIRST) sensor having been deleted to save money, but the PAK-FA may get ‘first look’ using its advanced infrared sensor. Then, the engagement becomes a supersonic equivalent of the Battle of Britain or air combat over North Korea. The outcome will be difficult to predict as it will depend a lot on the combat skills of the pilots and the capabilities of the missiles for end-game kills. There is no guarantee that the F-22 will prevail every time.
The fate of the F-35 Lightning II would be far worse in an air combat environment challenged by the PAK-FA. If the Mach 1.5 PAK-FA is using its infrared sensor as the primary sensor and observes radio frequency emission control (EMCON), then the first detection by the F-35’s APG-81 radar could be at ~20 nautical miles or less with a missile launched by the PAK-FA’s infrared sensors already inbound from 60 to 70 nautical miles away. The PAK-FA could easily break to a direction outside the F-35’s AIM-120 engagement zone.
The sustained turning performance of the F-35A Lightning II was recently disclosed as 4.95 G at Mach 0.8 and 15,000 ft. A 1969 F-4E Phantom II could sustain 5.5 Gs at 0.8 Mach with 40 percent internal fuel at 20,000 feet. The F-35 is also much slower than the 1960s F-4E or F-105D. So the F-35A’s aerodynamic performance is ‘retrograde’ when compared with 1960s legacy fighters. The consequence of such inferior JSF performance is that its DAS might detect an incoming missile, but the aircraft lacks the turn-rate to out-fly it. As the F-35 also lacks the performance to engage or escape, repeated ‘freebie’ shots from the PAK-FA could inflict high losses. Expect the exchange rate to be of the order of 4:1 in favour of the PAK-FA, possibly much higher[3].
Russian aerospace companies have demonstrated an ability to outpace US aerospace manufacturers in terms of delivery of an operational capability and also the diversity of the capabilities of their weapons systems. The cumbersome US acquisition system, and marketing rather than technology driven aerospace industry, put the US at a distinct competitive disadvantage in rapidly adapting to an evolving threat environment.
The most dangerous situation the US could face, is where the high and upwardly spiralling development and production costs of the JSF ‘cuckoo’ the available resources, which are needed to develop the advanced capabilities necessary to counter the new Russian PAK-FA, and the generation of new weapons which the PAK-FA will inevitably be armed with.
Complacency is not an option. Having ruled the roost for the decade out to 2015, the F-22A may be knocked off its perch by a newcomer, unless the US invests in new sensors, especially, and advanced technology Infra-Red Search and Track, stealth improvements and a new generation of missiles for the F-22 – assuming it even builds more than the token number of F-22s currently planned. The F-35 has already been neutralised and negated by the Su-35-1/35BM and will be substantively overmatched by the PAK-FA. The West needs to think long, hard and fast about the PAK-FA, as the current and retrograde “F-35 centric” future fighter fleet model guarantees certain defeat in future combat.
 

Bahamut

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A Solution to America's F-35 Nightmare: Why Not Build More F-22s?

Dave Majumdar
September 16, 2015




America’s F-35 clearly has its share of problems. Such challenges only compound the U.S. Air Force’s real dilemma: not having enough dedicated air superiority fighters as potential competitors like Russia and China beef up their own capabilities. The problem stems from the fact that the Air Force’s Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor fleet was terminated after only 187 aircraft were built–less than half of the 381 jets the service needed as a bare minimum.

Speaking to reporters at the Air Force Association convention in National Harbor, Md., just outside the capital, Air Combat Command commander Gen. Hawk Carlisle said he would love to see the Raptor back in production. “I dream about it every night,” Carlisle said.

Indeed, the Raptor has proven to be a formidable warplane with its unique combination of stealth, speed, maneuverability, altitude and sensors. It’s simply the best air superiority fighter the United States has ever produced and it was a foolish, shortsighted decision to end its production run prematurely.

But while many within the Air Force would dearly love to see the Raptor back in production, it is not likely to happen. The first problem is that while Lockheed and the Air Force supposedly made every effort to carefully squirrel away the tooling and instructions for building the F-22, problems have emerged when maintenance crews have attempted to pull the equipment in order to repair damaged jets.

One recently retired Air Force official with direct knowledge about the service’s efforts to repair two damaged Raptors said that they faced severe difficulties with retrieving the correct tooling. In one example, Air Force maintainers needed to build a particular component from scratch to replace a severely damaged part for an F-22. The crews went into the Conex boxes where the tooling and instructions to build the part were allegedly stored, but to their considerable surprise and aggravation, the container was empty. The same pattern repeated itself several times—and as of the last time the source checked–the issue remains unresolved. The bottom line is that even if the Air Force wanted to, it may not be physically possible to restart the line—at least not without a huge additional investment in time and money.



The second factor to consider is that the Raptor’s avionics were dated even before the jet was declared operational in December 2005. While the Raptor is the most advanced operational warplane in the Air Force’s inventory, its computer architecture dates back to the early 1990s. The core processors run at 25MHz–since it took so long to get the jet from the design phase to production. Moreover, the Raptor’s software is particularly obtuse and difficult to upgrade–which is partly why integrating the AIM-9X and AIM-120D missiles onto the aircraft has been so problematic. The jet’s avionics would have to be completely revamped for a production restart, not just because they’re obsolete, but also because the jet’s antique processors and other components haven’t been made in decades. That would be a very expensive proposition at a time when the Air Force’s budgets are shrinking.

The third factor to consider is that the basic F-22 airframe design originates from the 1980s. The Raptor, as of this year, has been in service for a decade. The technology is old—stealth, propulsion, avionics and airframe design have come a long way since the F-22 was designed. If the Air Force were to invest several tens of billions of dollars into an aircraft, it has to ensure that those technologies are still relevant to threats decades from now. By 2035, the Raptor will have been in service for 30 years—most of its systems would be hopelessly obsolete by then.

The reality is that the Air Force likely will never restart the Raptor production line. The technology is dated and the jet may not be relevant to the threat environment past the 2030s–especially if one considers that PAK-FA and J-20 are both around the corner. The Air Force has already started laying the groundwork for a next generation air superiority capability it is calling the F-X. We don’t yet know how it will shape up, but it will surely be designed to fight the threats of tomorrow.
 

Bahamut

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These may be the only F-22’s Achilles’ heels in a dogfight against 4th gen fighter jets
Sep 30 2014 - 94 Comments

By Dario Leone
Considered almost unbeatable in the air-to-air role, the F-22 successfully debuted in combat, taking part in air strikes against ISIS targets. But what if the F-22 found a 4th Gen. opponent?
Even though we don’t know much details about them, missions flown by the F-22 Raptor over Syria marked the combat debut of the stealth jet.

As already explained, the radar-evading planes conducted air strikes against ISIS ground targets, in what (considering the 5th Generation plane’s capabilities) were probably Swing Role missions: the stealth jets flew ahead of the rest of the strike package to cover the other attack planes, dropped their Precision Guided Munitions (PGMs) on designated targets, and escorted the package during the way back.

Considered that it could not carry external fuel tanks (to keep a low radar signature), the F-22 were refueled at least two or three times to make it to North Syria and back to the UAE, flying a mission most probably exceeding the 6 – 7 hours flying time.

Raptor’s stealthiness is maintained by storing weapons in internal bays capable to accomodate 2x AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles, some AIM-120C AMRAAM air-to-air missiles (the number depending on the configuration), as well as 2x 1,000 pound GBU-32 JDAM or 8x GBU-39 small diameter bombs: in this way the Raptor can dominate the airspace above the battlefield while performing OCA (Offensive Counter Air) role attacking air and ground targets. Moreover its two powerful Pratt & Whitney F-119-PW-100 engines give the fifth fighter the ability to accelerate past the speed of sound without using the afterburners (the so called supercruise) and TV (Thrust Vectoring), that can be extremely useful, in certain conditions,to put the Raptor in the proper position to score a kill.

All these capabilities have made the F-22 almost invincible (at least on paper). Indeed, a single Raptor during one of its first training sorties was able to kill eight F-15s in a mock air-to-air engagement, well before they could see it.

These results were achieved also thanks to the specific training programs which put F-22 pilots against the best US fighters jocks in order to improve their abilities to use the jet’s sophisticated systems, make the most out of sensor fusion, then decide when and to execute the correct tactic.

The Raptor has a huge advantage against its adversaries as demonstrated by the F-22’s incredible kill ratio against USAF Red Air (which play as enemy air forces during exercises) and its F-16s and F-15s, during the exercises undertaken in the last decade: for instance, during exercise Noble Edge in Alaska in June 2006, few F-22s were able to down 108 adversaries with no losses, while during the 2007 edition of the same exercise, they brought their record to 144 simulated kills.

In its first Red Flag participation, in February 2007, the Raptor was able to establish air dominance rapidly and with no losses.

As reported by Dave Allport and Jon Lake in a story which appeared on Air Force Monthly magazine, during an Operational Readiness Inspection (ORI) in 2008, the F-22s scored 221 simulated kills without a single loss.

Still, when outnumbered and threatened by F-15s, F-16s and F-18s, in a simulated WVR (Within Visual Range) dogfight, the F-22 is not invincible.



Apparently along with the Rafale, one aircraft which proved to be a real threat for the F-22 is the Eurofighter Typhoon: during the 2012 Red Flag-Alaska, the German Eurofighters not only held their own, but reportedly achieved several kills on the Raptors.

Even though with don’t know anything about the ROE (Rules Of Engagement) set for that training sorties and, at the same time, the outcome of those mock air-to-air combat is still much debated (as there are different accounts of those simulated battles), the “F-22 vs Typhoon at RF-A” story, raised some questions about the threat posed to the Raptor by advanced, unstealthy, 4th Gen. fighter jets.

In fact, even though these aircraft are not stealth, Typhoons are equipped with Helmet Mounted Display (HMD) systemsand IRST (the Infra-Red Search and Track), two missing features on Raptors.

The Typhoon’s HMD is called Helmet Mounted Symbology System (HMSS). Just like the American JHMCS (Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System) which is integrated in the U.S. F-15C/D, F-16 Block 40 and 50 and F-18C/D/E/F, HMSS provides the essential flight and weapon aiming information through line of sight imagery. Information imagery (including aircraft’s airspeed, altitude, weapons status, aiming etc) are projected on the visor (the HEA – Helmet Equipment Assembly – for the Typhoon) , enabling the pilot to look out in any direction with all the required data always in his field of vision.

The F-22 Raptor is not equipped with a similar system (the project to implement it was axed following 2013 budget cuts). The main reason for not using it on the stealth jet is that it was believed neither an HMD, nor HOBS (High Off-Boresight) weapons that are fired using these helmets, were needed since no opponents would get close enough to be engaged with an AIM-9X in a cone more than 80 degrees to either side of the nose of the aircraft.

Sure, but the risk of coming to close range with an opponent is still high and at distances up to 50 km an aircraft equipped with an IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system, which can detect the IR signature of an enemy fighter (that’s why Aggressors at Red Flag carry IRST pods….), could even be able to find a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22″ as a Eurofighter pilot once said.

Summing up, the F-22 is and remains the most lethal air superiority fighter ever. Still, it lacks some nice features that could be useful to face hordes of enemy aircraft, especially if these include F-15s, Typhoons, Rafales or, in the future, theChinese J-20 and Russian PAK-FA.
 

sasum

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Only a fool will use RADAR against F 22,PAK FA will not use it radar but relies on its passive sensor .F 22 will not use radar as it risk itself being tracked and locked on .Leaving it blind.

QWIP equipped IRST cannot be fooled by flares ,flares are use for missiles not to fool IRST of planes as they have enough computing power to differentiate between the two .
You are right. When two stealth fighters engage, the detection will shift from RF to IR signature. F-22 junked AIRST to save money, but Pak Fa will go ahead and have it. At the same time, there is nothing to presume that if India buys f-22, it is to engage in a duel with Pak Fa !! Pakistan will be overwhelmed by Raptor or Pak Fa equally. Only advantage of Raptor is, it is tried & tested, battle-hardened and can be aquired at short notice, if both govts. agree.
 
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Bahamut

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High-Priced F-22 Fighter Has Major Shortcomings

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By R. Jeffrey Smith
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, July 10, 2009


The United States' top fighter jet, the Lockheed Martin F-22, has recently required more than 30 hours of maintenance for every hour in the skies, pushing its hourly cost of flying to more than $44,000, a far higher figure than for the warplane it replaces, confidential Pentagon test results show.

THIS STORY
The aircraft's radar-absorbing metallic skin is the principal cause of its maintenance troubles, with unexpected shortcomings -- such as vulnerability to rain and other abrasion -- challenging Air Force and contractor technicians since the mid-1990s, according to Pentagon officials, internal documents and a former engineer.

While most aircraft fleets become easier and less costly to repair as they mature, key maintenance trends for the F-22 have been negative in recent years, and on average from October last year to this May, just 55 percent of the deployed F-22 fleet has been available to fulfill missions guarding U.S. airspace, the Defense Department acknowledged this week. The F-22 has never been flown over Iraq or Afghanistan.

Sensitive information about troubles with the nation's foremost air-defense fighter is emerging in the midst of a fight between the Obama administration and the Democrat-controlled Congress over whether the program should be halted next year at 187 planes, far short of what the Air Force and the F-22's contractors around the country had anticipated.

"It is a disgrace that you can fly a plane [an average of] only 1.7 hours before it gets a critical failure" that jeopardizes success of the aircraft's mission, said a Defense Department critic of the plane who is not authorized to speak on the record. Other skeptics inside the Pentagon note that the planes, designed 30 years ago to combat a Cold War adversary, have cost an average of $350 million apiece and say they are not a priority in the age of small wars and terrorist threats.

But other defense officials -- reflecting sharp divisions inside the Pentagon about the wisdom of ending one of the largest arms programs in U.S. history -- emphasize the plane's unsurpassed flying abilities, express renewed optimism that the troubles will abate and say the plane is worth the unexpected costs.

Votes by the House and Senate armed services committees last month to spend $369 million to $1.75 billion more to keep the F-22 production line open were propelled by mixed messages from the Air Force -- including a quiet campaign for the plane that includes snazzy new Lockheed videos for key lawmakers -- and intense political support from states where the F-22's components are made. The full House ratified the vote on June 25, and the Senate is scheduled to begin consideration of F-22 spending Monday.

After deciding to cancel the program, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates called the $65 billion fleet a "niche silver-bullet solution" to a major aerial war threat that remains distant. He described the House's decision as "a big problem" and has promised to urge President Obama to veto the military spending bill if the full Senate retains F-22 funding.

The administration's position is supported by military reform groups that have long criticized what they consider to be poor procurement practices surrounding the F-22, and by former senior Pentagon officials such as Thomas Christie, the top weapons testing expert from 2001 to 2005. Christie says that because of the plane's huge costs, the Air Force lacks money to modernize its other forces adequately and has "embarked on what we used to call unilateral disarmament."

David G. Ahern, a senior Pentagon procurement official who helps oversee the F-22 program, said in an interview that "I think we've executed very well," and attributed its troubles mostly to the challenge of meeting ambitious goals with unstable funding.

A spokeswoman for Lockheed added that the F-22 has "unmatched capabilities, sustainability and affordability" and that any problems are being resolved in close coordination with the Air Force.

'Cancellation-Proof'

Designed during the early 1980s to ensure long-term American military dominance of the skies, the F-22 was conceived to win dogfights with advanced Soviet fighters that Russia is still trying to develop.
 

Bahamut

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High-Priced F-22 Fighter Has Major Shortcomings

PHOTOS
Previous Print

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By R. Jeffrey Smith
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, July 10, 2009


The United States' top fighter jet, the Lockheed Martin F-22, has recently required more than 30 hours of maintenance for every hour in the skies, pushing its hourly cost of flying to more than $44,000, a far higher figure than for the warplane it replaces, confidential Pentagon test results show.

THIS STORY
The aircraft's radar-absorbing metallic skin is the principal cause of its maintenance troubles, with unexpected shortcomings -- such as vulnerability to rain and other abrasion -- challenging Air Force and contractor technicians since the mid-1990s, according to Pentagon officials, internal documents and a former engineer.

While most aircraft fleets become easier and less costly to repair as they mature, key maintenance trends for the F-22 have been negative in recent years, and on average from October last year to this May, just 55 percent of the deployed F-22 fleet has been available to fulfill missions guarding U.S. airspace, the Defense Department acknowledged this week. The F-22 has never been flown over Iraq or Afghanistan.

Sensitive information about troubles with the nation's foremost air-defense fighter is emerging in the midst of a fight between the Obama administration and the Democrat-controlled Congress over whether the program should be halted next year at 187 planes, far short of what the Air Force and the F-22's contractors around the country had anticipated.

"It is a disgrace that you can fly a plane [an average of] only 1.7 hours before it gets a critical failure" that jeopardizes success of the aircraft's mission, said a Defense Department critic of the plane who is not authorized to speak on the record. Other skeptics inside the Pentagon note that the planes, designed 30 years ago to combat a Cold War adversary, have cost an average of $350 million apiece and say they are not a priority in the age of small wars and terrorist threats.

But other defense officials -- reflecting sharp divisions inside the Pentagon about the wisdom of ending one of the largest arms programs in U.S. history -- emphasize the plane's unsurpassed flying abilities, express renewed optimism that the troubles will abate and say the plane is worth the unexpected costs.

Votes by the House and Senate armed services committees last month to spend $369 million to $1.75 billion more to keep the F-22 production line open were propelled by mixed messages from the Air Force -- including a quiet campaign for the plane that includes snazzy new Lockheed videos for key lawmakers -- and intense political support from states where the F-22's components are made. The full House ratified the vote on June 25, and the Senate is scheduled to begin consideration of F-22 spending Monday.

After deciding to cancel the program, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates called the $65 billion fleet a "niche silver-bullet solution" to a major aerial war threat that remains distant. He described the House's decision as "a big problem" and has promised to urge President Obama to veto the military spending bill if the full Senate retains F-22 funding.

The administration's position is supported by military reform groups that have long criticized what they consider to be poor procurement practices surrounding the F-22, and by former senior Pentagon officials such as Thomas Christie, the top weapons testing expert from 2001 to 2005. Christie says that because of the plane's huge costs, the Air Force lacks money to modernize its other forces adequately and has "embarked on what we used to call unilateral disarmament."

David G. Ahern, a senior Pentagon procurement official who helps oversee the F-22 program, said in an interview that "I think we've executed very well," and attributed its troubles mostly to the challenge of meeting ambitious goals with unstable funding.

A spokeswoman for Lockheed added that the F-22 has "unmatched capabilities, sustainability and affordability" and that any problems are being resolved in close coordination with the Air Force.

'Cancellation-Proof'

Designed during the early 1980s to ensure long-term American military dominance of the skies, the F-22 was conceived to win dogfights with advanced Soviet fighters that Russia is still trying to develop.
 

Bahamut

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You are right. When two stealth fighters engage, the detection will shift from RF to IR signature. F-22 junked AIRST to save money, but Pak Fa will go ahead and have it.
So why buy F 22, no upgrades planned till now give it IRST ,so it means F 22 simply cannot fight against PAK FA.Even Rafale took this advantage their SPECTRA made sure that F 22 cannot use it radar,since PAK FA will use more power sensors and processor the gap will only widen
 

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