Cow slaughtering mob clashes with Cops in Gujarat village

Simple_Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
938
Likes
578
Avoid cow slaughter on Eid: Darul Uloom

Leading Islamic seminary Darul Uloom Deoband has appealed to Muslims to avoid cow slaughter during Bakrid or Eid al-Adha as a mark of respect for the feelings of Hindus. The three-day festival of sacrifices begins on October 16 and will continue till October 18.

Darul Uloom V-C Maulana Abul Kasim Noamani said: "The seminary has asked Muslims in the country to avoid cow slaughter on the occasion of Eid al-Adha." The statement assumes significance as cow slaughter is banned in many states in India and there have been clashes over the issue in the past at many places.
The incidents in Gujarat, AP, and other places happened after this statement, showing that fanatics are hell bent on creating clashes and will not listen to clerics.
 

civfanatic

Retired
Ambassador
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
4,562
Likes
2,572
What I meant was, regardless of how conservative or misguided the American politicians be, they still can not repudiate the constitution. In Islamic societies the constitution itself is derived from the Quran.
It is true that the medieval Islamic world did not have a constitution to protect certain freedoms, but what is the relevance of that? I was not comparing the medieval Islamic world with modern America, but with the current Islamic world. Even without a constitution, freedom of religion and speech still existed in the medieval Islamic world to a considerable degree, as proven by the existence of rationalists and freethinkers.

Also, not all Islamic countries today are run according to the Quran. Many Islamic countries, including Turkey, all the Central Asian republics, Bosnia, and Albania have no Shar'ia law in their judicial system (not even for personal/family matters like India does). The medieval Islam world wasn't exactly run according to the book either, because the punishment for apostasy (i.e. death) was seldom actually applied. If it were, there wouldn't be any rationalists or freethinkers in the medieval Islamic world.


I'll expand on this. Say, a religion was conceived in 2050, the inventor would have access to all the knowledge present at that time and would fashion his religion around that knowledge. Now the inventor of the religion tells his followers that his holy book is the word of god, is the unquestionable truth and beyond reproach. People following this religion would be able to reconcile scientific knowledge with their religious ideas quite easily for the first few decades, it would give an impression that the society is open minded and progressive and not averse to new ideas in contrast to say, a religion conceived in 1950's which did not have access to the data that the newer religion had but is still as dogmatic. However, as science progresses and deviates from the earlier believed theories even the religion conceived in 2050 would find it harder to keep up and would appear as obsolete as all that preceded it.
How much understanding of science did the 7th century Bedouins of the Quraysh tribe have? What did Mohammed know about Indian astronomy and mathematics, or Greco-Roman logic and philosophy? The advancements in science and philosophy that the medieval Islamic world was famous for, took place several centuries after the Quran was written.


There are several Muslims who openly criticize Islam and ask for reform and are ignored, simply because they do not have the sway to damage Islam in anyway. There were women who protested the Saudi driving ban on women. Compare this to the case of Salman Rushdie who faced a fatwa because his book was critical of Islam directly.

Yes, Al-Ma'arri would be lynched for his literature in today's world just as Salman Rushdie would be ignored for his in the medieval era since there is no way of his work reaching the masses to constitute any threat.
Salman Rushdie's book was not "directly criticizing" Islam. The actual plot of the book has almost nothing to do with Islam; there are just a few humorous references to Mohammed and his wives, and the angel Gabriel. There is nothing in the book remotely approaching a scholarly critique of Islam. It was just a piece of fiction that Muslims interpreted as blasphemous and insulting, and this apparently justified the death of Rushdie.

Saudi women can protest the ban on driving all they want, but they wouldn't dare to publicly insult Islam or Mohammed. The medieval rationalists did, and they got away with it. It doesn't matter if they were "influential" or not. In a strict Islamic theocracy, the punishment for apostasy is death, and open denunciation of Islam would not be tolerated.


Geocentric theory was the most widely accepted one in medieval Islamic societies.
Not because of religious reasons. As I said before, several Islamic astronomers considered heliocentrism, but their state of knowledge was not advanced enough to decisively prove the heliocentric model. Geocentric theory was also the most widely accepted one in ancient and medieval India, and Indian astronomy was one of the most advanced in the world. If even Indian astronomers could not come up with a true heliocentric model, then it is not too surprising that Islamic astronomers could not either.


Yes. Not many Christians agree with evolution and I am aware that in some American schools creationism is taught as fact. But does it take away from the fact that some of the most cutting edge research in the field of genetics is done in predominantly Christian countries? I am not saying that Christianity or any other nation is more liberal than Islam, but many Christians have been able to dilute their religiosity enough to adopt rational thought.
You are contradicting your earlier statement, when you said that "dogma was still pervasive" in the medieval Islamic world, but not in the post-Renaissance West. If anything, the study you quoted shows that religious dogma is still pervasive in the West (or at least in America), since the percentage of Muslims who believe in evolution is about the same as the percentage of Americans overall (according to the study), and actually much higher than certain American Christian groups (Evangelicals and Mormons).

It is true that, despite containing many religious nutjobs and idiots, America is still a global center of cutting-edge scientific research. You can draw parallels to the 17th century West, when people were being executed for witchcraft even while Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz were inventing calculus and laying the groundwork of modern physics. What this shows, is that you can have great scientific progress even if a large portion of society is stupid and backwards. This was true of the medieval Islamic world as it was of the West since the 16th century. It is the educated elites, and not the dumb religious masses, who drive scientific progress.


Or maybe equally unsophisticated. We can only speculate since the theory had not been proposed by then.
Ibn Khaldun claimed that humans descended from monkeys, as I showed above. That itself is not the modern theory of evolution, but this is what the religious layman takes offense at. If a 14th century Muslim writer could make such a claim without worrying about religious dogma, then it does show that a modern Muslim who rejects the theory on religious grounds is less intellectually sophisticated than an educated Muslim of the 14th century.


Mu'tazila school was pretty much Islam-B, they reasoned that Quran could not be co-eternal with God(wiki) and was created and was to be interpreted allegorically. They never said that Qur'an was not the word of god or it was not infallible.
If the Quran was a human creation, as the Mu'tazilites believed, then how could it be the "word of God" or "infallible"? Orthodox Muslims treat the Quran as infallible because they don't consider it to be a mere creation; they consider it to be the "revealed words" of Allah himself, to Mohammed. The Mu'tazilites reject that claim. It should also be mentioned that this school was not some fringe sect; it actually received state sanction at one point, and was officially endorsed by the Abbasid Caliphate:
First, they [the Mu'tazila] stressed the absolute unity or oneness (tawḥīd) of God. From this it was logically concluded that the Qurʾān could not be technically considered the word of God (the orthodox view), as God has no separable parts, and so had to be created and was not coeternal with God. Under the ʿAbbāsid caliph al-Maʾmūn, this doctrine of the created Qurʾān was proclaimed (827) as the state dogma, and in 833, a miḥnah or tribunal was instituted to try those who disputed the doctrine (notably the theologian Aḥmad ibn Ḥanbal); the Muʿtazilī position was finally abandoned by the caliphate under al-Mutawakkil c. 849. The Muʿtazilah further stressed the justice (ʿadl) of God as their second principle. While the orthodox were concerned with the awful will of God to which each individual must submit himself without question, the Muʿtazilah posited that God desires only the best for man, but through free will man chooses between good and evil and thus becomes ultimately responsible for his actions. So in the third doctrine, the threat and the promise (al-waʿd wa al-waʿīd), or paradise and hell, God's justice becomes a matter of logical necessity: God must reward the good (as promised) and must punish the evil (as threatened).
Link: Mu'tazilah (Islam) -- Encyclopedia Britannica
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
The aspect of Muʿtazilah sect, if one can all them so, is a fascinating part of Islam.

One should also know about them.

I wish @cvifanatic could start a thread and educated all so that there is a better understanding amongst all.

******************************

Since there are references to Muʿtazilah, here is what an Arab writer has to say.

ISLAMIC HISTORYTHE BATTLE FOR REASON
by Amir Ahmed Nasr*
The war between Islamic Rationalists and Traditionalists isn't just a thing of history. Looking back at the philosophical battles of the past could hold the key to a better, brighter Arab future.

How did Islamdom lose her virtue?
Versions of this question had echoed in my head for a while – growing unbearably louder each time a religious fanatic coopted the Qur'an to suit nonsensical purposes, violence, or oppression. How did this loss happen? And when?

The question persisted and, tired of bemoaning the current state of things with no answers of my own, I decided to research. Hours of delving into Islam's history handsomely paid off; I not only found many answers I was looking for. I also found, in that answer, a new set of heroes cooler than any action figures from my childhood. These new heroes of mine were called the Mu'tazila.

The Mu'tazila were an early group of Muslim religious philosophers and theologians who emerged during the formative years of Islam. At this time, they gained ascendency over another group of Muslim theologians called the Ash'ariyya, with whom the Mu'tazila engaged in a spirited war of ideas on numerous issues including the ontological nature of the Qur'an.

I could imagine the various battles as I read about them in black-and-white, and in my eyes, their verbal and ideological disputes resembled an epic exchange of blows and stunts.

Here's how it went. The Mu'tazila, sometimes referred to as the "Rationalists," held philosophy in high-esteem, emphasized free will, and believed that the interpretation of the Qur'an and the Hadith are subordinate to human reason. They also believed that all theological propositions must conform to the principles of rational thought, and if for instance a certain Qur'anic verse didn't, then it had to be interpreted allegorically. The Ash'ariyya on the other hand, who were known as the "Traditionalists," had less appreciation for philosophy, emphasized predestination, were more literalist in their interpretation of the Qur'an, and insisted that reason should be subordinate and subservient to revelation – a stance I personally find repulsive and appalling.

Thus, by virtue of their positions, the Mu'tazila and Ash'ariyya found themselves at each other's throat, each determined to have their views prevail over the other's. But it gets better, because Team Mu'tazila and Team Ash'ariyya each had their changing political backers and patrons as well. The whole affair was as complex and filled with intrigues as modern historical fiction!

In the 9th century, the Caliph leader of Baghdad, al-Ma'mun, declared the Mu'tazila's creed as the religion of the state and persecuted the Ash'ariyya. But a few years later, the political situation changed dramatically, and a new leader, al-Mutawakkil, took over. He reversed al-Ma'mun's policy, favoring the Ash'ariyya instead, and hunted the Mu'tazila with a vengeance.

The Ash'ariyya's belief in predestination, that everything happens as a result of "God's will," proved to be an advantage for the politically manipulative, who used the doctrine as a way of coercing the people to accept their rulers – whether just or unjust, kind or oppressive. After all, their rule was part of "God's will," and therefore beyond contestation. The Ash'ariyya prevailed mercilessly. Luckily for Muslims, the Mu'tazila's views had already spread to other parts of Islamdom where they flourished and contributed significantly to the rise of the Islamic Golden Age – an age of science, progress, and discovery, which affirmed independent reasoning and empiricism.

How did Islamdom lose her virtue? It wasn't because of moral decadence, nor because of the infidels. No, it was because of one main cause: the abandonment of reason. Our philosophical thinkers faded to the background as religious literalists rose to the fore.
Not so luckily, the Mu'tazila as a distinct movement came to an end and the Ash'ariyya became the orthodox theology dominant to this day. One person I came to despise for his role in defeating Mu'tazila-oriented ideas and spreading the shackling dogmatism of the Ash'ariyya is the revered Traditionalist Muslim theologian, al-Ghazali. Not surprisingly then, the one person I came to admire most was al-Ghazali's opponent, the Spanish-Arab Muslim philosopher Ibn Rushd, defender of Aristotelian philosophy. Those in the West know him as Averroes and attribute Western Europe's modern secular thought with his inspirational writings.

All of my research left me high on historical revelations, but frustrated by the fall and devastation.

"If only the Mu'tazila had survived. If only they had won. If only al-Mutawakkil didn't screw things up. If only al-Ghazali and his ilk had been defeated. If only Ibn Rushd had prevailed! If only," I grieved in despair. But at least I'd found one of my crucial answers.

So, how did Islamdom really lose her virtue?

Simply, she forgot the importance of reason. It wasn't because of moral decadence nor because of the infidels. No, it was because of one main cause, and that was the abandonment of reason. Our philosophical thinkers faded to the background as religious literalists rose to the fore. The freedom of thought, expression, experimentation, and questioning fell under the rule of obdurate Traditionalists, who quashed the use of reason. It is because of this that Islam's virtue has disappeared.

We have to bring back reason. We have to re-establish philosophy so we can liberate the Muslim mind from the shackles of dogma, so we can re-establish a Muslim culture of science, so we can rise again. It's possible – but it requires work, strong leaders, stronger thinkers, and the support of a people unwilling to remain subservient to literalism and faith.

As for the Traditionalists of today, they love to brag about Islamdom's Golden Age of achievements. They love to gloat about her past glory and relative harmonious openness. They love to point out her former flourishing and her sciences and innovations. But those achievements were the work of persevering Rationalism – the very intellectual foundation that Traditionalists still attack today. If Islamdom is to ever rise again to its former stature, it must look to its past, to its real heroes, and turn once more to the reason and empiricism that made it great.

* This article is adapted from Amir Ahmad Nasr's forthcoming book "My Isl@m".

Free Arabs - Islamic History The Battle for Reason
 
Last edited:

civfanatic

Retired
Ambassador
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
4,562
Likes
2,572
^^ That is a great article @ray. This sums it up:
How did Islamdom lose her virtue? It wasn't because of moral decadence, nor because of the infidels. No, it was because of one main cause: the abandonment of reason. Our philosophical thinkers faded to the background as religious literalists rose to the fore.
The history of the rise and fall of civilizations, is very often parallel with the conflict between the open-minded rationalists and the narrow-minded traditionalists. When a civilization embraces rationalism and freedom of thought, it advances; when it becomes subservient to blind dogma and suppresses free speech, it declines.

What is ironic is that many orthodox Muslims today boast about the "Islamic Golden Age", as if it were some proof of Islam's inherent greatness. They don't realize that the reason for Islamic civilization's greatness, was precisely because rationalism flourished instead of the dogma of religion. It was because of orthodox traditionalists like them, that Islamic civilization declined and became backward.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Virendra

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 16, 2010
Messages
4,697
Likes
3,041
Country flag
Apostates still exist in Islam. People still criticize Islam. Al- Ma'arri did not only criticize Islam but all religions, hence it was not seen as an attack on Islam.
One small question if it is not too OT.
With same intension and nature of work, if Al- Ma'arri criticized only Islam in his work not other religions; in your opinion would he have still survived back then?

In regards to your specific query regarding heliocentrism, while Islamic science did not make the leap towards a heliocentric model, there were actually several astronomers in the Islamic world who did consider heliocentrism, including al-Beruni, Najm al-Din al-Qazwini, and Qutbuddin Shirazi. In an age of limited technology, it was rather difficult to conclusively prove heliocentrism, but what is important is that the models were at least openly discussed, and religious dogma was not the reason why they were rejected. Even Indian astronomy, which was one of the most advanced in the world, never developed a true heliocentric model.
About heliocentricism, I thought the Chandogya Upanishad 3.11.1 states that the Sun is the "madhye-sthata" i.e. lying at the centre. I don't know about development of models though.
Arabs were the first powerful Islamic civilization. They had benefited from interaction with Indians 8th century onwards.
I don't know where exactly in the timeline, rationality took to extinction in Islamic countries.
 

civfanatic

Retired
Ambassador
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
4,562
Likes
2,572
One small question if it is not too OT.
With same intension and nature of work, if Al- Ma'arri criticized only Islam in his work not other religions; in your opinion would he have still survived back then?
Yes, because there were also non-Muslim writers who were following their own religions, and who criticized Islam in preference to their own. One example would be Abd al-Masih b. Ishaq al-Kindi, a Christian writer at the court of the Caliph who wrote a book propounding Christianity over Islam. In the book, he invites Muslims to embrace Christianity, and gives reasons why it is superior to Islam.

Link: The apology of Al Kindy, written at the court of Al Mâmûn (A. H. 215; A. D. 830) in defense of Christianity against Islam. With an essay on its age and authorship read before the Royal Asiatic Society : Abd al Masih ibn Ishak, al Kindi : Free Downl
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
@civfanatic,

Start the thread that I requested of you.

Great information you are giving, but sadly, when egged on.

Educate us on your own and let people ask you questions and you clarify.

I aim to download that thread as a reference so that I am more educated and aware.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

maomao

Veteran Hunter of Maleecha
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2010
Messages
5,033
Likes
8,354
Country flag
Sufis are among the most radical and fervent Muslims.

The Islamic world needs a resurgence of the Mu'tazila school and a return to the rationalism and openness of the medieval Islamic world. The Sufis, Salafis, and Wahhabis are all mindless radicals, just in different flavors.
Are you actually referring to Sufis or you wanted to say Barelvis?
 

civfanatic

Retired
Ambassador
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
4,562
Likes
2,572
My contention is, free thinkers existed in all eras throughout the world. You can not gauge how open minded a society is from isolated examples of rationalists. A society would be considered rational, if reason is allowed to dictate the discourse.
Of course freethinkers existed in all eras throughout the world. What matters however is how tolerant society is of these rationalists, freethinkers, and nonconformists. What I said is that the medieval Islamic world was more open-minded and accepting of such individuals than the modern Islamic world (overall). There were always religious fundamentalists in both the West and the Islamic world, but the fundamentalists in the West ceased to suppress the rationalists and freethinkers after about the 16th century, while the opposite happened in the Islamic world.


Turkey is regressing to fanaticism rather swiftly
The case of Turkey is actually similar to that of the U.S. Like America, Turkey has a secular constitution that separates religion from public life (for example, it is illegal to wear a hijab in public buildings in Turkey). Even if Islamist parties seize power in Turkey, they cannot reverse the basic secularism of the state, just like highly religious American politicians cannot reverse the First Amendment.


I don't believe that Quran was written by a single individual alone or the Quran we that see today is the original draft. It has surely been revised and course corrected, at least in the earlier centuries. Greco-Roman logic, specially Aristotle's and Ptolemaic's was the one prevalent in the Arabic world when Islam was developing as a religion and hence you see it reflected in the Quran. This further corroborates my assertion that religions in their earlier years tend to give an impression of being progressive.
What influence of Greco-Roman logic is seen in the Quran? Where in the Quran does it indicate any knowledge or even awareness of foreign mathematics and astronomy?


Attack/Insult/Cartoon/Humorous joke on Prophet Muhammad is an attack on Islam. A scholar would never be attacked for the simple reason that the uneducated masses have no means to interpret his work and largely they don't have access to it. Hence an academic work/research paper constitutes negligible threat. A popular novel on the other hand is a different matter altogether. Compare this with VHP wallahs, thousands of scholarly articles criticizing the very idea of Hinduism and questioning it's beliefs are published every year and yet they riot over some paintings depicting Indian gods immodestly while happily going to pray in temples that have the same murals engraved on the walls in the evening. The point being, as long as the masses are not influenced by rational thought free thinkers are generally ignored.
Yes, making jokes about Mohammed can be perceived as an "attack on Islam" by fundamentalists, because insulting Mohammed is considered blasphemous, but that is not the same thing as a criticism of Islam.A criticism of something involves making negative judgments about it, expressing disapproval about it, and/or finding fault with it. For example, a criticism of Islam would say, "Islam is bad/wrong/misguided because of x, y, and z (insert reasoning)". Rushdie doesn't do that in his book, because his book is not a critique of Islam. Also, I highly doubt the uneducated masses actually read his book; they were simply following the fatwa issued by Khomeini. Without the fatwa, I doubt the book would have had anywhere near the attention that it did.

One example of actual criticism of Islam in modern times that resulted in negative consequences, would be the film Submission by Theo von Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The film was about the abuse of women in Islamic societies. Von Gogh was murdered by an Islamic fanatic, and Hirsi Ali had to go into hiding. Unlike in the Rushdie case, there was no fatwa involved; it was simply a spontaneous act of religious intolerance and hatred. However, there was no comparable reaction when the medieval rationalists and freethinking poets and writers publicized their work. They were not killed for criticizing Islam, even if many people of the time undoubtedly took offense to their views.


Not many free thinkers that you mentioned earlier were apostates either, most of them never rejected Allah, they simply differed in their interpretation of the Quran or how the clergy was misguiding the masses. We can only speculate how open apostates would have been treated in medieval times. Only Al-Ma'arri in the examples you provided would be considered an apostate, but I'd call it an exception rather than a rule. Anyway, Al-Ma'arri was actually charged for heresy(not prosecuted) and scholars attribute it to him including verses to assuage the orthodoxy in his works.
Al-Razi and al-Rawandi were even more fierce in their criticism of Islam and Muhammad than al-Ma'arri. Al-Rawandi was even expelled from the Mu'tazila school for being too radical, which is saying something, since the Mu'tazilites themselves would be considered kafirs by most modern Muslims.

What is the point of being "charged" with heresy if you do not face any punishment? Of course al-Ma'arri was a heretic, as were many others of the time, but the point is that they weren't killed for their views.


In post renaissance west dogma might have been pervasive but it was reason that steered the society. This was not true for medieval Islamic world.
What do you mean by that? If reason "steered" the whole society, why were people being killed for witchcraft at the same time that a few Europeans were laying the foundation of modern science? The average European of those times was as God-fearing and superstitious as any Muslim, with deism, atheism, and rationalism being limited to an educated few.


Regarding that study, Protestants form the crux of American society followed by Catholics and are all ranked higher than Muslims, further the study is for US only, I would assume that the percentage of Muslims who believe in evolution is much lower in their home countries.
In the study, mainstream Protestants and Catholics only score a few percentage points higher than the Muslims. I don't see any significant statistical difference between the Muslims and the American population overall, with regards to acceptance of evolution.

With regards to the Islamic world itself, it is true that evolution is not widely accepted in many countries (though there are exceptions here, like Kazakhstan), and this is because many of them are indeed backwards and excessively religious. I never argued against that.


This brings us back to my original point that Islam has not actually regressed since the Middle ages but it has essentially remained the same(or progressed slightly). I think you agree now that a large section of the Islamic society was backwards during the medieval era as it is now. The free thinkers were few and far between. However, unlike the west eventually, they were never allowed to dictate the discourse and reason never took off in Islamic society. Take the case of Pakistan, a country with constitutionalized anti-apostasy law, yet Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy, an open atheist lives there, has held a governmental position there and freely discusses his anti-religious ideas. Does this make Pakistan an open/rational society that the rest of the Islamic world should emulate? No. Because he is an exception, just as most scholars throughout the world in earlier times were. All societies to an extent have progressed from the past, to say a society would become more open-minded by going back is not right in my opinion.
Did Pervez Hoodbhoy ever publicly denounce Islam and Mohammed? Did he ever publicly argue that the Quran was a human creation, and not the word of Allah? If so, when?

I never denied that a large section of medieval Islamic society was backwards. I simply said that the medieval Islamic world was more open-minded and more tolerant of rationalists and radical freethinkers, than it is now. I think it is quite clear that rationalist discourse was far more common and accepted during that time, than now.


Ibn Khaldun was a devout Muslim. He never rejected any Islamic theories of creationism and didn't make any solid claims on evolution. His observation was revolutionary for that time, no doubt. But it was apparently ignored completely, neither did he himself expanded upon it.

I think it is unfair to compare a pioneer in one era to a common man in another. A proper comparison would be to compare the two societies.
An average middle-class Muslim in the modern world has access to far more knowledge than a medieval elite like Ibn Khaldun could have ever dreamed of. If a modern Muslim, despite having access to so much information, still rejects the idea that humans evolved from apes on religious grounds, then he/she is indeed less intellectually sophisticated than a 14th century educated Muslim.


My knowledge on Mu'tazala Sect is limited to Wikipedia. I would defer to your expertise on the matter. However, I would be interested to know why would such a sect succumb to an ideology such as Sunni Islam.
The powers in the Islamic world came to favor orthodox Islam over the more rationalist, heterodox versions, because the former was more conducive to their own political ambitions. By the 12th century, most of the Islamic world came under the rule of Turkic slave dynasties, who replaced earlier indigenous dynasties of Arab and Iranian origin. Since these dynasties were of foreign origin, and were newcomers to both the land and the religion, they came to rely increasingly on the Islamic clergy to provide sanction for their rule. These new rulers took the title of "Sultan" and considered themselves the "shadow of God on earth" (zill Allah f'il-alem), or the earthly representative of God's Will. Basically, religion became more fused with politics, and was being used more openly as a political tool. Eventually, almost the whole Islamic world would come under the rule of Turkish-origin "sultans", from North Africa to Bengal, and this persisted until the rise of European colonialism.
 

TrueSpirit

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
1,893
Likes
841
Re: Attack on Police

Yeah that is the thing which bothers me, I have seen a similar incident in my city when police went to arrest a Muslim in their Muhalla, police were attacked.
IMHO, this is a common phenomena throughout North India since last 2 decades (cannot say how this was before 2 decades). Law-enforcement machinery (agencies) do not dare enter any Muslim mohalla, lest they are hellbent on getting sliced by mob or getting shot from some mohalla rooftop. Few incidents that come to mind are DM being shot in Kanpur (along with many policemen & PAC) when trying to soothe/assuage restive Muslim mobs (who were protesting collection of long-pending Electricity bills).

As everyone is already aware, in UP/Bihar sh**holes (like Varanasi/Allahabad/Azamgarh/Meerut/Aligarh/Moradabad etc.), law has completely given up against Muslim mobs. One is led to believe it would be much worse in W.Bengal, Assam & Tripura. Thankfully, HP & Uttaranchal populace do not allow this menace to raise its head.
 

maomao

Veteran Hunter of Maleecha
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2010
Messages
5,033
Likes
8,354
Country flag
I am referring to Sufis. It is a popular myth that all Sufis are "tolerant liberals".
There are hardly any Sufis left and trust me they are nothing like Barelvis or Salafis. You may find sufis more fundamentalist when compared to missionaries or Hindu Right. But still they are nothing like Barelvis who have hijacked Sufism!
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
It may not sound politically correct, but because of the political reasons, none wish to upset a hornets nest that may label those acting as being communal and then receiving harsh penalties.

Then the mohallas are very congested and the workplace is in the mohalla. The people, in such mohallas have this feeling (again encouraged by the political people) that they are being always discriminated. Discrimination maybe true or maybe imagined. There is no doubt that India is not a perfect place.

Therefore, the feeling of being discriminated runs high and the lumpen and anti socials take advantage and usually since these mohallas have lower class of society, these lumpen elements run a riot!

In Calcutta, places like Metiaburz, Port, Picnic Gardens are places where none, l;et alone the police, wish to go or pass through, if they can avoid it.

Here is an example from Kolkata Police website:


Vinod Mehta laid his life to keep city peaceful.

A quarter century has passed but Vinod K. Mehta, DC, Port Division, is still remembered in the rank and file of Kolkata Police for the enormous courage that made him face this villains and also for the tragic end to this courage that would have probably won him a place in the pages of history.

It was one black morning on 18.03.1984 at around 11.45 A.M. some miscreants attacked V. K. Mehta, DC, Port Division, his guard, Constable Moktar Ali and others on Ramanajan Lane with bombs / brickbats and other lethal weapons. Mehta with Constable Moktar Ali, close on heels, faced these criminals who were equipped with lethal weapons. Faced with an attack, the duo along with other Policemen took shelter in side a mosque at Ramanajan Zone when the miscreants launched attack at the said mosque and demanded explanation from the Police Force. They were soon overpowered as the criminals took the mosque on seize and started hurling bombs. A Constable was injured. Mehta tried to escape through Battikal towards Garden Reach Road. Mehta took refuge in a house at 228/3, Battikal, but the killers follow him there. Moktar tried to save his superior's life, but was dragged out and assaulted. His eyes were dug out, his revolver was snatched away and his limbs were chopped off. Moktar bled to death but the killers handn't had enough with him. They set his body on fire.

By this time Mehta had managed to run off to another house in the neighbourhood at G 222, Battikal, but was soon spotted by the killer gang. They attacked him with sharp weapons and he died instantly. Stripping him of his uniform and shoes, the killers threw Meheta's body into a canal. The IPS Officer's body was recovered later from the Kutcha drain near premises No.F59, Attabag.

A specific case was started in connection with this incident and was presented before the Ld.Court of Shri N. K. Bhattacharjee, 9th Court, Additional Session Judge, Alipore.

http://www.kolkatacops.com/kolkata-cop/kolkata-cop/
 
Last edited:

civfanatic

Retired
Ambassador
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
4,562
Likes
2,572
There are hardly any Sufis left and trust me they are nothing like Barelvis or Salafis. You may find sufis more fundamentalist when compared to missionaries or Hindu Right. But still they are nothing like Barelvis who have hijacked Sufism!
Please find out who Ahmad Sirhindi was.
 

TrueSpirit

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
1,893
Likes
841
It may not sound politically correct, but because of the political reasons, none wish to upset a hornets nest that may label those acting as being communal and then receiving harsh penalties.

Then the mohallas are very congested and the workplace is in the mohalla. The people, in such mohallas have this feeling (again encouraged by the political people) that they are being always discriminated. Discrimination maybe true or maybe imagined. There is no doubt that India is not a perfect place.

Therefore, the feeling of being discriminated runs high and the lumpen and anti socials take advantage and usually since these mohallas have lower class of society, these lumpen elements run a riot!

In Calcutta, places like Metiaburz, Port, Picnic Gardens are places where none, l;et alone the police, wish to go or pass through, if they can avoid it.

Here is an example from Kolkata Police website:
And the most dominant all-pervasive feeling shared among their mohalla-ites are "they can get away with anything" because of the political patronage & some sort of ingrained, ethnic "mardangi" (that they perceive is exlusive to them).

This political patronage derives from the two factors:

1) Perception than they vote en-masse, so can make-or-break political careers in deeply fractured polities like that of most Indian states, where the winner could have a total vote share less than 20% & the difference between winner & runner-up could be as less than a few thousand votes, even when crores have voted.

2) It is further driven by their absolute numbers (with a herd-mentality & newfound Wahabi riches to provision automated arms/munitions) & rapid demographic-inversions they execute in several states & frontier constituencies driving-out/killing/converting original natives (Think NE states & WB; increasingly Bihar & UP, as well).
 

TrueSpirit

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
1,893
Likes
841
There are hardly any Sufis left and trust me they are nothing like Barelvis or Salafis. You may find sufis more fundamentalist when compared to missionaries or Hindu Right. But still they are nothing like Barelvis who have hijacked Sufism!
Still, the government prefers to prop-up vulnerable, pacifist & inclusive Barelvis against the ultra-zealous Deobadis (if you follow local developments in North India).
 

TrueSpirit

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
1,893
Likes
841
It may not sound politically correct, but because of the political reasons, none wish to upset a hornets nest that may label those acting as being communal and then receiving harsh penalties.

Then the mohallas are very congested and the workplace is in the mohalla. The people, in such mohallas have this feeling (again encouraged by the political people) that they are being always discriminated. Discrimination maybe true or maybe imagined. There is no doubt that India is not a perfect place.

Therefore, the feeling of being discriminated runs high and the lumpen and anti socials take advantage and usually since these mohallas have lower class of society, these lumpen elements run a riot!

In Calcutta, places like Metiaburz, Port, Picnic Gardens are places where none, l;et alone the police, wish to go or pass through, if they can avoid it.

Here is an example from Kolkata Police website:
To add, such "mini-Pakistans" (popular lexicon) had been existing & proliferating since decades in every single district of North India (except, maybe some hill-districts).

@Decklander Sir, Being familiar with West UP, you must have definitely heard of Khalapar in Muzaffarnagar.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Decklander

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2012
Messages
2,654
Likes
4,111
To add, such "mini-Pakistans" (popular lexicon) had been existing & proliferating since decades in every single district of North India (except, maybe some hill-districts).

@Decklander Sir, Being familiar with West UP, you must have definitely heard of Khalapar in Muzaffarnagar.
That is the heart of crime capital of western UP, it is majority muslim town and in recent riots, the first attacks on hindus and max use of illegal guns was done in this place.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TrueSpirit

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
1,893
Likes
841
That is the heart of crime capital of western UP, it is majority muslim town and in recent riots, the first attacks on hindus and max use of illegal guns was done in this place.
Yes Sir, hotbed of anti-national extremism, one the biggest ISI-dens & home to the largest consignment of illegal automated arms in the region.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top