Chinese political discussions

[p2prada]

With Mickey to boot.

 

[nitesh]

And the tanks rolled down the Square

 

[badguy2000]

It's called the Iron Curtain of the communist way of doing things. You can't hide the construction of an Aircraft Carrier like you did for the J-10. Also, at that time, everybody knew J-10 was being built. It's just that the pictures came after induction.

well,
why has 50% of jobs been finished,when China's AC is concerned? here is my opinion:

1.other necessary warships of a AC group.like subs(039A/093), anti-air DDG (051c,052c),general DDG(052B), FFG(054) all have been indigenized.

2. the navy version of J11B is advancing smoothly.

3. China has mastered other key tech:

a. speical steel: the nuke sub's steel is harder to produce than the steel of AC.
b. vapour ejector: China can produce world biggest steamers Generator,which is used in 3 Dorges dam. it is much harder than vapur ejector.

4. China has world most modern shipyards.

 

[nitesh]

Pathetic attempt by China, acting like a terrorist country

Chinese passing off fake drugs as ?Made in India?

Nigeria: Nafdac Seizes N32 Million Fake Anti-Malarial Drugs

Orhii was emphatic that although the labels on the products indicated they were manufactured in India, the bill of lading showed the port of loading to be Xingang in China, and the exporter as Heihe Cheng Feng Trading co, Ltd. (Shenzhen Shenghetai Trading Co. Ltd).

 

[hit&run]

China 'A Global Godzilla'
The world is never short of rogue states. Think North Korea. Burma. Sudan. And even Pakistan. Rogue states exist because they have sponsors.

For much of the 20th century, and especially before the fall of the Berlin Wall, the US and USSR backed every possible tinpot dictator in the world. Today, that chief sponsor of rogue states is China.

It backs each one of the four rogue (or near-rogue) states mentioned above. In its cynical pursuit of global hegemony, China provides succour to many unsavoury regimes as long as it can achieve its own strategic goals. These goals include finding cheap energy sources or overawing current and future rivals (Japan, Taiwan, India).

China is close to becoming a global Godzilla of the kind the Nazis had become in the 1930s. It is ultra-nationalist, racist, autocratic, monocultural and militaristic -- all vital ingredients of Nazism.
You may also want to see

* Apocalypse soon?
* Court frees Chinese waitress who killed Communist official
* China hushes up gay week
* Hype over China is greatly exaggerated
* 'Weakness exposed by Tiananmen still exists'

China is not quite Nazi Germany, but there's no one to hold it in check right now. The US cannot call the shots effectively without courting an economic catastrophe (China is its largest creditor). Russia is a much diminished superpower and leans on China to control the growing Islamist threat to its southern fringe. Japan is wallowing in its own economic misery. India is nowhere as big economically or militarily -- as yet -- to stand up to China. We don't even know how to begin.

China has always been the biggest roadblock to India's rise in the world, but what we know privately we have always sought to deny publicly. It all started with Nehru's disastrous handling of foreign policy in the 1950s, which culminated in our humiliating defeat in the 1962 border war.

A vain Nehru ignored sane advice from people of the eminence of Sardar Patel and Rajendra Prasad and the Chinese ran circles around him all through the 1950s while they were building up their military might and subjugating Tibet.

In the early 1960s, when China was sure it was militarily stronger, we got hammered. The only good thing to emerge from that war is that Indians have intuitively understood that China is not a friend. While we can be partners in the economic sphere, civilisationally we are rivals.

Unfortunately, this is not something we are willing to acknowledge formally. The only non-hypocritical official statement made by India about China came in 1998 after Pokharan II.

Defence minister George Fernandes said that our nuclear tests were intended to redress the power asymmetry with China. He was roundly criticised for speaking the truth, but he has been proved right.

For the last 18 years, the Chinese have been watching with dismay as India first became a global IT power and then started growing nearly as fast as them. Businessmen may love China's ability to give them a free run on profits (no labour laws, instant government decisions, etc), but the world gives India's ragtag democracy a higher degree of respect than China's centrally-driven capitalism.

Respect, though, is not enough. India's problem is that Nehru's ghost still hangs outside the Indian foreign ministry. We are paralysed by fear, hoping against hope that China will see reason and allow us to take our place in the sun.

Well, it won't happen. China only recognises power, which is why it has pursued military superiority with such doggedness since the 1980s. It has opposed India formally, and behind the scenes, at every forum.

At the Nuclear Suppliers' Group last year, China tried its best to scuttle the Indo-US deal. At the UN, China was the only country (apart from Pakistan) to steadfastly spike our dreams of permanent membership.

The Middle Kingdom is clearly the rogue state behind the clandestine transfer of nuclear and missile technology between Pakistan and North Korea. A nuclear and terror-supporting Pakistan is critical to Chinese plans to keep India bogged down in local insurgencies. A rogue North Korean state enables China to keep both South Korea and Japan off-balance.

At the Asian Development Bank, China's was the hand that nearly stopped a loan for Arunachal Pradesh. In fact, the clearance of this loan -- facilitated by India's strong diplomatic pressure on the US, South Korea and Japan -- shows that power needs to be projected when it comes to dealing with China. There is only one way to deal with China and that is by building our military, diplomatic and economic strength continuously.

Japan, South Korea and Vietnam could be our silent allies in this game, but even if the world does not want to play, we must be clear in our goals. We have to develop deterrent military and economic power to contain China and earn its respect. We have to dump the Nehruvian mindset of fooling ourselves into believing that China is a benign power. It is not. It is a rogue state under wraps.

 

[SammyCheung]

China 'A Global Godzilla'At the Asian Development Bank, China's was the hand that nearly stopped a loan for Arunachal Pradesh. In fact, the clearance of this loan -- facilitated by India's strong diplomatic pressure on the US, South Korea and Japan -- shows that power needs to be projected when it comes to dealing with China. There is only one way to deal with China and that is by building our military, diplomatic and economic strength continuously.

Japan, South Korea and Vietnam could be our silent allies in this game, but even if the world does not want to play, we must be clear in our goals. We have to develop deterrent military and economic power to contain China and earn its respect. We have to dump the Nehruvian mindset of fooling ourselves into believing that China is a benign power. It is not. It is a rogue state under wraps.

I find it amusing that Indians should try to play the victim when it is India that aggravates its border dispute with China.

India can't have it both ways. Either it has to be reasonable on the border dispute or it will face a hostile China.

India is at the point where it has to make a decision on the above. This article I quoted implies that there is only one choice for India, which is to engage in strategic rivalry with China.

I hope the Indian government isn't stupid enough to it wouldn't be overpowered by a hostile China.

 

[Daredevil]

I find it amusing that Indians should try to play the victim when it is India that aggravates its border dispute with China.

India can't have it both ways. Either it has to be reasonable on the border dispute or it will face a hostile China.

Please tell me, which way should India have it.

India is at the point where it has to make a decision on the above. This article I quoted implies that there is only one choice for India, which is to engage in strategic rivalry with China.

Isn't it already happening -- strategic rivalry between China and India.

I hope the Indian government isn't stupid enough to it wouldn't be overpowered by a hostile China.

China can't over power India. Militarily it will be a stalemate between India and China, owing to the treacherous terrain between them. It will be stupid enough of China if it tries to act as a smart cookie and attack India.

 

[SammyCheung]

Well if India was wise it would choose to compromise on the border issue and make peace with China.

If India wants to adopt a hostile policy toward China, it will lose. The first thing it will lose is the disputed territory. At the same time, Pakistan may be involved on the other side of your country.

Finally, there is also the matter of Chinese navy that can attack from the sea.

 

[Daredevil]

Well if India was wise it would choose to compromise on the border issue and make peace with China.

If India wants to adopt a hostile policy toward China, it will lose. The first thing it will lose is the disputed territory. At the same time, Pakistan may be involved on the other side of your country.

India chose to not compromise with China because Arunachal is integral of India, so there is no dispute. It will be better if China compromise and not behave as an irritant.

Pakistan is in tatters which is unable to quell its own internal insurgencies, forget about it causing any trouble to India. As I said earlier, China doesn't have the capability to occupy Arunachal despite its military prowess because the terrain is of no help to China's plans.

Finally, there is also the matter of Chinese navy that can attack from the sea.

You're kidding right!!:blum3:.

 

[SammyCheung]

Then India selects war.

China has already built up sufficient infrastructure in Tibet. Our power projection ability is improving very quickly. If we have to fight an air war and drop troops on the other side, then we'll do it. It would be like the massive crossing of the Yalu river by the PVA, except its crossing of mountains.

Never underestimate China's ability to move tons of troops.

Chinese navy is far superior to the Indian navy. If this trend persists, China may be able to lob missiles by sea. Of course land invasion is impossible.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Sammy Cheung,

Chinese Navy is superior than Indian navy? You must be kidding. China does not have a single aircraft carrier, while India will be inducting 2 within the next 5 years, in addition to one that we already have. The only thing China has in numbers are its submarines, most of which are based on outdated Soviet designs. In Asia, India has the second best navy after Japan. If the PLAN tries do attack the IN in the Indian ocean, your navy will be toast. It's not me that's saying this, but any knowledgeable naval affairs analyst will tell you the same thing.

Secondly, the state of Arunachal Pradesh is an integral part of India.......at least until there is a fair and equitable resolution of the border dispute that includes the 38,000 sq km of Aksai Chin that is under Chinese occupation. If your idea of "negotiation" is India giving up parts of its territory for nothing in return, then you're sadly, badly and madly mistaken. The thing is, Chinese do not understand Indian history, while Indians by and large do understand and appreciate Chinese history even if they dislike the CCP. After the partition of India in 1947, Indian leaders vowed never to let a foreign power grab its territory.

Now if there's a fair and equitable resolution which involves a swap of territories for example-Aksai Chin for AP, that may be considered. But don't ever think India will part with AP without any concessions from your side. If you try to force a resolution to your liking, you're certainly on a confrontation course with India.

China has already built up sufficient infrastructure in Tibet. Our power projection ability is improving very quickly. If we have to fight an air war and drop troops on the other side, then we'll do it. It would be like the massive crossing of the Yalu river by the PVA, except its crossing of mountains.

Never underestimate China's ability to move tons of troops.

Here's a hint. The Indian Army is not the same as it was in 1962. Read up on the 1987 Sumdorong Chu incident. At that time, the PLA told the CCP that they could not take on the IA unless the opened a second front through Pakistan. That was more than 20 years ago.......in today's world, India has many more allies.

 

[Known_Unknown]

delete double post

 

[SammyCheung]

Chinese Navy is superior than Indian navy? You must be kidding. China does not have a single aircraft carrier, while India will be inducting 2 within the next 5 years, in addition to one that we already have. The only thing China has in numbers are its submarines, most of which are based on outdated Soviet designs. In Asia, India has the second best navy after Japan. If the PLAN tries do attack the IN in the Indian ocean, your navy will be toast. It's not me that's saying this, but any knowledgeable naval affairs analyst will tell you the same thing.

Let's get real. India's carriers are for parades only. They have little military value against all but weak countries. Actually, India's neighbors in the Indian Ocean have weak navies. That brings me to my point....\

The Chinese navy is the navy that is pushing the USA and Japan out of East China Sea and South China Sea by harassment tactics. The Chinese navy goes head to head with the most powerful navies in the world.

In a match up, assuming Chinese ships can cross the Malacca strait, India would facing a real modern naval power, not Bangladesh or Pakistan. Let's get serious...

China is a country that can manufacture modern missile defense ships like the Type 054A frigate. India is nowhere even close to the Chinese navy.

Secondly, the state of Arunachal Pradesh is an integral part of India.......at least until there is a fair and equitable resolution of the border dispute that includes the 38,000 sq km of Aksai Chin that is under Chinese occupation. If your idea of "negotiation" is India giving up parts of its territory for nothing in return, then you're sadly, badly and madly mistaken. The thing is, Chinese do not understand Indian history, while Indians by and large do understand and appreciate Chinese history even if they dislike the CCP. After the partition of India in 1947, Indian leaders vowed never to let a foreign power grab its territory.

Now if there's a fair and equitable resolution which involves a swap of territories for example-Aksai Chin for AP, that may be considered. But don't ever think India will part with AP without any concessions from your side. If you try to force a resolution to your liking, you're certainly on a confrontation course with India.

There's nothing unreasonable about what you said, but your leaders are not making reasonable offers to the Chinese.

Here's a hint. The Indian Army is not the same as it was in 1962. Read up on the 1987 Sumdorong Chu incident. At that time, the PLA told the CCP that they could not take on the IA unless the opened a second front through Pakistan. That was more than 20 years ago.......in today's world, India has many more allies.

This is hilarious. That last line... it's like saying we're supposed to be in awe of you because of countries you kowtow to?

China is an extremely powerful country at this point in history. PLA has some extremely advanced equipment. Today, China would dominant in the air first, and then deliver troops by air.

 

[Rage]

For all your sabre-rattling "Sammy Cheung", you are yet to touch Taiwan.


Nor for that matter is your inability to stop unrelenting raids and attakcs into your territory by a much smaller Vietnam or the abrupt termination of your Sino-backed Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia by a bantam Vietnamese state any testament to your "military prowess".

Don't get your head up in the clouds yet. Can you quantify the "gap between China and India" and the "gap between the United States and China" to determine that the former is "much larger than the other"?

Mature post indeed.

China is a larger state than India, with a more than two-decade head-start in terms of economic modernization. But nothing remains static in this world, and you know far far less about the Indian economy than you suppose. Savour the moment while you still have it.

Rest assured, our own infrastructure capabilities in our North and far North-East, and power-projection capabilities are also rapidly improving. The fact that you are not aware does not make it any less so.

If you select war, we will drag you to hell and back and back again.

Nor do you presume to suppose that our 'military defeat' in the border skirmish of 1962 was borne out of any inherent military deficiency. A close reading of the events of that time will reveal that it was political dithering, topographical disadvantage and a lack of coordinated thinking that lost the war for us. Since that event, political and military rationale in India has undergone a paradigm shift. We are not the same India of the 1960's, nor are we bereft of allies other than a single-superpower Soviet Union.

And one more thing shweetie, talk like that a little longer and you will have the mods collective boot up your arse. You are here at our pleasure, make no mistake about that. And your tone belies an underlying superiority borne of crass ignorance we here do not welcome. Rectify it or be gone.


P.S.: Arun'aachal Pradesh is more integral to India than Tibet is "integral" to China. Any discussion on Arun'aachal's "compromise" would pressupose a discussion on both Tibet and Aksai Chin. So no, this state ain't goin nowhere.

 

[SammyCheung]

For all your sabre-rattling "Sammy Cheung", you are yet to touch Taiwan.

Hey I'm just giving you the facts here.

Taiwan? Taiwan is already in China's lap....

Remember Sun Tzu? ;-)

Nor for that matter is your inability to stop unrelenting raids and attakcs into your territory by a much smaller Vietnam or the abrupt termination of your Sino-backed Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia by a bantam Vietnames state any testament to your "military prowess".

Whatever... China is a country that doesn't obsess over border skirmishes just like China doesn't obsess over Pakistan. We have real wars.

Don't get your head up in the clouds yet. Can you quantify the "gap between China and India" and the "gap between the United States and China" to determine that the former is "much larger than the other"?

Okay, look at Agni-II. Not yet deployed. China deployed its first solid fuel missile in that range DF-21 in the early 80's.

P.S.: Arun'aachal Pradesh is as integral to India is Tibet is as "integral" to China. Any discussion on Arun'aachal's "compromise" would pressupose a discussion on both Tibet and Aksai Chin. So no, this state ain't goin nowhere.

Sheesh, you folks need to stop thinking like you are British Empire or something. Tibet has nothing to do with India.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Let's get real. India's carriers are for parades only. They have little military value against all but weak countries.

Really? And why is that? Please explain.

The Chinese navy is the navy that is pushing the USA and Japan out of East China Sea and South China Sea by harassment tactics. The Chinese navy goes head to head with the most powerful navies in the world.

You crack me up. Do you really think your navy can stand up to the USN or the Japanese Navy? Have you had a look at the disparity lately? A couple of incidents where you caught a US ship by surprise with your submarine hardly qualifies as "going head to head with the most powerful navies in the world"!

In a match up, assuming Chinese ships can cross the Malacca strait, India would facing a real modern naval power, not Bangladesh or Pakistan. Let's get serious...

Do you really think you can get your entire navy all around the Malacca Strait and into the Indian Ocean and fight the IN in its turf? What about fuel, food, and reinforcements? Is your entire navy going to come over to pay us a visit? In that case, who's going to defend your coastal cities? Your heartland? You're going to leave it exposed to the Japanese, USN and Taiwan by moving the bulk of your navy into the Indian Ocean where it will be finished quickly anyway by the IN and IAF? You go ask a Chinese military man what he thinks of this ludicrous plan of yours, and I'd really like to hear his answer.

China is a country that can manufacture modern missile defense ships like the Type 054A frigate. India is nowhere even close to the Chinese navy.

Another gem. You really need to update your knowledge about India. Maybe you're stuck in the 60s. India makes all its own navy ships including stealth frigates and even our own aircraft carrier. Please educate yourself:

Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's nothing unreasonable about what you said, but your leaders are not making reasonable offers to the Chinese.

On the contrary, the negotiations have been held up because China has refused to agree to such a compromise, which Chou En Lai himself proposed in late 1950s or so. Now China wants the whole state of AP without making any concessions on Aksai Chin. Also, it was earlier decided between the two parties that any final deal should not disturb the status of settled people...i.e, Indian citizens should not be forcibly made Chinese citizens and vice versa. China has gone back on this promise too.

This is hilarious. That last line... it's like saying we're supposed to be in awe of you because of countries you kowtow to?

Not kowtow to, but countries that might choose to take our side if you were the one to initiate hostilities against India.

China is an extremely powerful country at this point in history. PLA has some extremely advanced equipment. Today, China would dominant in the air first, and then deliver troops by air.

Germany was extremely powerful at the beginning of WWII too. But a system of opposing alliances was what brought it down.

 

[SammyCheung]

Really? And why is that? Please explain.

China has quiet advanced nuclear submarines. In the event of a hostility your carriers should be very afraid. Its obsolete air wings are no match for China's advanced missile frigates and destroyers.

You crack me up. Do you really think your navy can stand up to the USN or the Japanese Navy? Have you had a look at the disparity lately? A couple of incidents where you caught a US ship by surprise with your submarine hardly qualifies as "going head to head with the most powerful navies in the world"!

Don't underestimate the ability of China's submarines to control the East and South China Seas.

Do you really think you can get your entire navy all around the Malacca Strait and into the Indian Ocean and fight the IN in its turf? What about fuel, food, and reinforcements? Is your entire navy going to come over to pay us a visit? In that case, who's going to defend your coastal cities? Your heartland? You're going to leave it exposed to the Japanese, USN and Taiwan by moving the bulk of your navy into the Indian Ocean where it will be finished quickly anyway by the IN and IAF? You go ask a Chinese military man what he thinks of this ludicrous plan of yours, and I'd really like to hear his answer.

LOL. What's all these other countries you listed? They're supposed to help India?

Look, China needs maybe 4 destroyers, 8 frigates and 5 attack subs in the Indian ocean and it can totally dominate against India. India is totally outclassed here.... China actually manufactures ships that India buys from other countries.

Another gem. You really need to update your knowledge about India. Maybe you're stuck in the 60s. India makes all its own navy ships including stealth frigates and even our own aircraft carrier. Please educate yourself:

Please... lets not bring in speculative future projects. China actually manufactures and deploys advanced missile frigate the Type 054A.

 

[p2prada]

Look, China needs maybe 4 destroyers, 8 frigates and 5 attack subs in the Indian ocean and it can totally dominate against India. India is totally outclassed here.... China actually manufactures ships that India buys from other countries.

Is that the reason why 2 of your best destroyers could not pick up an Indian kilo class submarine after 1000 miles. Also, the Indian sub was chasing the destroyers right from the Strait of Malacca to the Yemeni coast.

And for jokes, the Indian sub decided to surface close to the Chinese destroyers and retreat when surfaced.

You need more than 4 destroyers, 8 frigates and 5 attack subs if you are going against the IN's much superior electronic warfare capabilities and firepower.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Sammy, you need to quantify your claims. Simply claiming that "China is powerful country and it will destroy India" doesn't add much to the quality of discussion. So until you come up with facts and figures, this is a waste of time.

 

[SammyCheung]

Is that the reason why 2 of your best destroyers could not pick up an Indian kilo class submarine after 1000 miles. Also, the Indian sub was chasing the destroyers right from the Strait of Malacca to the Yemeni coast.

And for jokes, the Indian sub decided to surface close to the Chinese destroyers and retreat when surfaced.

You need more than 4 destroyers, 8 frigates and 5 attack subs if you are going against the IN's much superior electronic warfare capabilities and firepower.

LOL.... I like the part "the Indian sub decided to ... retreat when surfaced"

I think that gets to the point, doesn't it.

Sammy, you need to quantify your claims. Simply claiming that "China is powerful country and it will destroy India" doesn't add much to the quality of discussion. So until you come up with facts and figures, this is a waste of time.

Don't worry. I have enough knowledge about military and strategic affairs to make my posts informative.