China - World's greatest Copycat

[trackwhack]

Its also very cool that all your responses conveniently avoid addressing this point

On the other hand there are dedicated resources on payroll by the CCP to steal technology, from Cyber Espionage to Military reverse engineering to faking copyrighted products (I can buy a $30 Louis Vutton or a $10 Rolex on the streets of Manhattan).

but are fixated on immigrant skills, something that China's thievery has nothing to do with. Your points are relevant if the knowledge transfer you are talking about from Europe to America through people moving there was the same that is driving Chinese technology adaptation today. Unfortunately, there is no one immigrating to China with such skills to share their tech. China goes around stealing it. Not even the same thing to make a comparison.

 

[Geoffrey R. Stone]

How many foreigners migrate to China with their knowledge?

I can think of two important examples off the top of my head. China's nuclear program was started and developed by scientists that were sent to study in the Soviet Union. The father of China's missile program received his education in America. Those are just the biggest ones, but there are more.

 

[Geoffrey R. Stone]

A lot of China's talent has been coming from ethnic Chinese PhD researchers that obtained their education in U.S. universities. You see, that's one major difference between China and India. It seems much more common for Indian scientists to continue working in the U.S. afterwards. Many of the Chinese scientists tend to stay around for awhile to get to the cutting-edge of research before they leave. This trend is widely known in U.S. academic and research circles. Spend any time in the research departments of top universities and you'll see it first-hand.

Its also very cool that all your responses conveniently avoid addressing this point


but are fixated on immigrant skills, something that China's thievery has nothing to do with. Your points are relevant if the knowledge transfer you are talking about from Europe to America through people moving there was the same that is driving Chinese technology adaptation today. Unfortunately, there is no one immigrating to China with such skills to share their tech. China goes around stealing it. Not even the same thing to make a comparison.

 

[trackwhack]

A lot of China's talent has been coming from ethnic Chinese PhD researchers that obtained their education in U.S. universities. You see, that's one major difference between China and India. It seems much more common for Indian scientists to continue working in the U.S. afterwards. Many of the Chinese scientists tend to stay around for awhile to get to the cutting-edge of research before they leave.

There is a big difference between a lot, which is minuscule and all

The portion I marked in bold pretty much destroys your entire argument made in the half dozen posts earlier. You are in effect saying Chinese go to America, steal and come back. Indians go to America, stay loyal and dont return.

Though I'd rather have no Indian scientist leave the country, if they did leave, I wouldnt want them to steal stuff and come back. Again it comes down to how much self esteem matters to the individual.

 

[trackwhack]

I can think of two important examples off the top of my head. China's nuclear program was started and developed by scientists that were sent to study in the Soviet Union. The father of China's missile program received his education in America. Those are just the biggest ones, but there are more.

That is not the same as Russians immigrating to China. Are you a lil loose? What part of How many foreigners migrate to China? did you not understand? China going to Russia, learning stuff and coming back is not the same as Europeans leaving their home, going to America and living there.

 

[Geoffrey R. Stone]

There is a big difference between a lot, which is minuscule and all

The portion I marked in bold pretty much destroys your entire argument made in the half dozen posts earlier. You are in effect saying Chinese go to America, steal and come back. Indians go to America, stay loyal and dont return.

Though I'd rather have no Indian scientist leave the country, if they did leave, I wouldnt want them to steal stuff and come back. Again it comes down to how much self esteem matters to the individual.

China's missile program was started essentially by one U.S.-educated Chinese man, just as the U.S. missile program was started essentially by one German-educated rocket scientist. Wernher von Braun.

"A lot" is enough. You don't need every single U.S.-educated Chinese scientist to go back home in order for it to make a huge difference. You make it sound as if the only way it makes a difference is if every single Chinese scientist goes back home. These people go back and end up recruiting and training their own teams, based on their U.S. education. That's the beautiful thing about knowledge, education, and skills.

 

[trackwhack]

China's missile program was started essentially by one U.S.-educated Chinese man, just as the U.S. missile program was started essentially by one German-educated rocket scientist. Wernher von Braun.

"A lot" is enough. You don't need every single U.S.-educated Chinese scientist to go back home in order for it to make a huge difference.

A lot of KT from returning Chinese is nothing compared to the ocean of theft that your economy is based on. Again, returning Chinese are not the same as foreign immigrants. Please make fair comparisons. Your justifications for stealing is just not working though I must say that you have been well trained by your masters with a slew of pathetic retorts. Unfortunately for you, I am smarter than the smartest Commie propaganda clown.

 

[Geoffrey R. Stone]

A lot of KT from returning Chinese is nothing compared to the ocean of theft that your economy is based on. Again, returning Chinese are not the same as foreign immigrants. Please make fair comparisons. Your justifications for stealing is just not working though I must say that you have been well trained by your masters with a slew of pathetic retorts. Unfortunately for you, I am smarter than the smartest Commie propaganda clown.

Returning Chinese are the same as foreign immigrants in the sense that both types are arriving with knowledge, training, skills, connections, and education they obtained elsewhere. Spend any serious amount of time in any top university's research department (especially in the S.T.E.M. fields) and you'll see the common trend I am speaking of. This is based on first-hand experience so it's your loss if you ignore it.

In any case, I kept this discussion civil, but it seems that you aren't able to. I'm hardly a chicom 50 center commie propagandist. Born and raised in Canada, and educated in a top U.S. university. I personally have zero interest in ever moving to China, and disagree heartily with the opaqueness and Machiavellian nature of the Chinese political system, but if it makes you feel better to just pretend I am a propagandist, then go ahead.

 

[trackwhack]

Returning Chinese are the same as foreign immigrants in the sense that both types are arriving with knowledge, training, skills, connections, and education they obtained elsewhere. Spend any serious amount of time in any top university's research department (especially in the S.T.E.M. fields) and you'll see the common trend I am speaking of. This is based on first-hand experience so it's your loss if you ignore it.

In any case, I kept this discussion civil, but it seems that you aren't able to. I'm hardly a chicom 50 center commie propagandist. Born and raised in Canada, and educated in a top U.S. university. I personally have zero interest in ever moving to China, and disagree heartily with the opaqueness and Machiavellian nature of the Chinese political system, but if it makes you feel better to just pretend I am a propagandist, then go ahead.

I have not breached the line of civility either, just calling your bluff. Irrespective of where you are born, there is always national bias, and you are biased enough to defend lies and deceit which shows you in poor light and brings more shame. And no, returning chinese and european immigration to maerica are not the same. You arent fooling anyone with that. Moreover, I can also post links showing how CCP sent their graduating students to the West with the specific intention of bringing back knowledge, but I dont need to make that point. The only legal KT is if a skilled foreigner brought his skills to your land after he was provided refuge in your country. If you send out a scout to steal tech and come back, its nothing but another well executed heist.

 

[Geoffrey R. Stone]

I have not breached the line of civility either, just calling your bluff. Irrespective of where you are born, there is always national bias, and you are biased enough to defend lies and deceit which shows you in poor light and brings more shame. And no, returning chinese and european immigration to maerica are not the same. You arent fooling anyone with that. Moreover, I can also post links showing how CCP sent their graduating students to the West with the specific intention of bringing back knowledge, but I dont need to make that point. The only legal KT is if a skilled foreigner brought his skills to your land after he was provided refuge in your country. If you send out a scout to steal tech and come back, its nothing but another well executed heist.

Right. So it's civil to infer that I am carrying out the will of Communist masters? And it's civil to infer that I'm a propagandist clown?

You've been trying to frame this as an issue of self-esteem, but that seems to be premised on the notion that ethical integrity takes priority over national or economic security. My position has only been that real-world concerns trump ideals.

At the very least, some of your companions on this very forum embrace a view that a war between China and the U.S. is a great idea for wiping out the national debt, even if it escalates to the level of nuclear holocaust. With people like that running around, is it really irrational for China to set the goal of creating a military that can come closer to defending itself against a U.S. attack? With that kind of potential threat in your face, only a fool would take economic, industrial, and military espionage off the table.

 

[trackwhack]

Right. So it's civil to infer that I am carrying out the will of Communist masters? And it's civil to infer that I'm a propagandist clown?

You've been trying to frame this as an issue of self-esteem, but that seems to be premised on the notion that ethical integrity takes priority over national or economic security. My position has only been that real-world concerns trump ideals.

Oh please, What is uncivil about being judgmental?

For me ethics and morality matter more than nationalism. Self Esteem and pride associated with being moral matter more than factionalism or nationalism. That said I am staunchly national. To put things in perspective I would be ashamed of any technology that India adapts through stealing.

You position is immoral and you tried to defend it through the argument that everyone is immoral so why not China. Two things wrong with that - everyone is/was not immoral wrt the topic of discussion, honest straightforward technology sharing and stealing are not the same thing. Secondly the scale at which China has done it is nothing to laugh about. I mean if you can be brazen enough to duplicate an Apple store (not that I have a soft spot for apple, i hate their products), one of the most recognized brands in the world, what real world concerns trumping ideals are you talking about/trying to defend.

 

[Geoffrey R. Stone]

That's not being judgmental, that's making a personal attack in a discussion that has been, up until that point at least, civil. If you really cared about ethics and morality more than nationalism, you'd be plenty ashamed of America. There's the origins of the U.S. missile program, as well as NASA (a Nazi scientist that helped Hitler create his war machine). That's not only the perfect example of IP theft, though it's not like a genocidal totalitarian regime can sue about it in court right after losing a war, it's also the equivalent of putting practical concerns above idealism.

Oh please, What is uncivil about being judgmental?

For me ethics and morality matter more than nationalism. Self Esteem and pride associated with being moral matter more than factionalism or nationalism. That said I am staunchly national. To put things in perspective I would be ashamed of any technology that India adapts through stealing.

You position is immoral and you tried to defend it through the argument that everyone is immoral so why not China. Two things wrong with that - everyone is/was not immoral wrt the topic of discussion, honest straightforward technology sharing and stealing are not the same thing. Secondly the scale at which China has done it is nothing to laugh about. I mean if you can be brazen enough to duplicate an Apple store (not that I have a soft spot for apple, i hate their products), one of the most recognized brands in the world, what real world concerns trumping ideals are you talking about/trying to defend.

 

[trackwhack]

That's not being judgmental, that's making a personal attack in a discussion that has been, up until that point at least, civil.

No, its not a personal attack, I judged you as a commie propaganda machine. A personal attack would be if I called you a slut or something along those lines. Anyone defending CCP stealing technology is a CCP propaganda machine.

Anyway you have run out of justifications and now are trying to divert the discussion to something else. I will infer that you dont have any points to make to justify theft and move on to go about my daily chores. Good day.

 

[Geoffrey R. Stone]

As a matter of fact, I referred you to peer-reviewed academic documentation that establishes that the U.S. and Britain had a regular habit of stealing IP, and you dismissed it on the grounds that betraying your homeland by bringing its technology and know-how somewhere else is a different matter. Actually, some might argue that it's worse. One is a betrayal of your ancestral homeland, and the other is based on improving your nation's economic, technological, or military standing at the expense of its competitors.

 

[trackwhack]

As a matter of fact, I referred you to peer-reviewed academic documentation that establishes that the U.S. and Britain had a regular habit of stealing IP, and you dismissed it on the grounds that betraying your homeland by bringing its technology and know-how somewhere else is a different matter. Actually, some might argue that it's worse. One is treasonous and another is patriotic.

No, I dismissed it on the grounds that anyone immigrating to the US was not betraying ones homeland, instead was just moving on to greener pastures. If a Britisher moved to China and brought with him skills, you cannot deny him the right to practice his skills. That is not the same as a Chinese going to Britain, leraning the skills offerred there and coming back to China and violating/breaching the terms that allowed him to adapt those skills. Thats theft. Dont equate the two. Its just not the same. You can repeat it a thousand times it wont change.

 

[Geoffrey R. Stone]

No, I dismissed it on the grounds that anyone immigrating to the US was not betraying ones homeland, instead was just moving on to greener pastures. If a Britisher moved to China and brought with him skills, you cannot deny him the right to practice his skills. That is not the same as a Chinese going to Britain, leraning the skills offerred there and coming back to China and violating/breaching the terms that allowed him to adapt those skills. Thats theft. Dont equate the two. Its just not the same. You can repeat it a thousand times it wont change.

Ok. I get it. So you're opposed to economic, industrial, scientific, and military espionage on principle. You must not be a believer of the cliche that all is fair in love and war. It is a really fortunate thing then that you do not head some nation's intelligence agency.

 

[trackwhack]

Ok. I get it. So you're opposed to economic, industrial, scientific, and military espionage on principle.

No you dont get it. Lets not debate further.

You must not be a believer of the cliche that all is fair in love and war. It is a really fortunate thing then that you do not head some nation's intelligence agency.

Wow, very well trained at twisting arguments indeed. You must be a lawyer. If you are not one, consider a career change. To be more specific, choose corporate law and represent the Chinese when they are pulled up for stealing stuff.

 

[Geoffrey R. Stone]

No you dont get it. Lets not debate further.

No. You should clear your views up. Right now I'm leaning towards two possibilities about your position:

A) You think that IP theft is not the proper domain of espionage and intelligence activities.

B) You think that IP theft is the proper domain of espionage and intelligence activities, but you disapprove of espionage and intelligence activities.

 

[trackwhack]

Oh wow, new line of justification for theft - Espionage and Intelligence activities. Read my previous post once more. When you hit edit, I did too.

 

[Geoffrey R. Stone]

It's not a justification. It's the very definition of economic espionage.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/counterintelligence/economic-espionage

If it's just individuals stealing IP for their own benefit (or that of a rival corporation), then it's more accurately defined as corporate or industrial espionage. If it is an organized government program, as you claim to be the case (and I believe you to be correct on that matter), then it's economic espionage. This isn't a justification, it's the actual definition of the terms.

In which case my position is just that espionage (of any form) is a legitimate method by which to advance the national interest at the expense of your rivals.