China to "cut army, boost air force, navy"

[Vladimir79]

Wow bravo, now, this is a great comment

Thats what happens when someone gets in an auto accident. I never could understand the Han facisnation with watching mangled bodies.

 

[Vladimir79]

unfortunatly, there is no soviet union no more...so am I talking to the last citizen of soviet union in the world? that should be the head line on NYT: Red Alert, Russian wants to rebuild soviet union

Russia was the Soviet Union so you have no point.

 

[redragon]

Expert's comments should be taken serious... we know way more than newbs.

After Reading his asertion that one has to cut vayag open to fit in an engine, I lost the interest to treat his comment as one from an ex-intellegence veteran.

Russia is not a super power like soviet union, that is the point I want to say,

Ok stop here, we are way off the topic

 

[LETHALFORCE]

We already have a blue-water capable navy, so we've already joined the trend.

Tarun I don't think India is a blue water navy yet maybe in the next 5 years possibly. We are still a brown water navy at this point in time.

 

[badguy2000]

Tarun I don't think India is a blue water navy yet maybe in the next 5 years possibly. We are still a brown water navy at this point in time.

tarun has his own speical criterion of "blue navy":icon_salut:

 

[Martian]

"My guess is no time soon. They can't even catch Russia."

Can Russia launch a missile and have the kinetic warhead hit a 4 feet by 4 feet satellite that is traveling at 22,000 miles an hour at approximately 500 to 600 miles above the Earth? Does Russia have a KE ASAT or is the best that it can do is a more primitive "buckshot-like" effect? See ArmsControlWonk: ASAT Test Bans

Also, can you show me a picture of a Russian destroyer that looks like an Aegis-class ship with its distinctive phased-array radars?

Regarding the Chinese Aegis, you said:

"It is not an AEGIS class cruiser... don't believe the hype. It is a failed platform they have discontinued."

Why should I take anything that you say seriously? You seem to disagree with most publications in the United States regarding the existence of a Chinese Aegis destroyer. A simple Google search would have informed you of the development of the Chinese Aegis.

"The People’s Liberation Army Navy recently introduced two domestically designed and built guided missile destroyers that include Aegis-type radars and related technologies. Known as Project 052C guided missile destroyers (DDGs), the ships feature Aegis-type phased array panels, vertical launch systems, long-range missiles and considerable command and control. These capabilities were not found on any previous Chinese-built DDGs.

The design of a lead ship with prototype Aegis radar, combat direction links and a vertical launch system (VLS) into a small 6,600-ton hull is an ambitious development. The smallest U.S. Navy Aegis ship with VLS is the 8,400-ton Arleigh Burke-class DDG 51. Russia had its Aegis-equivalent Sky Watch system only on 30,000-ton aircraft carriers. The nine years of sea test development prior to the U.S. Navy’s first installing Aegis on the warship USS Ticonderoga CG 47 indicates the complexity and the engineering effort necessary to build a successful Aegis system. The fact that the Soviet Union gave up on an Aegis system after years of frustrating problems on two warships also shows the extreme difficulties." See China Debuts "Aegis" Destroyers

Also, see World Tribune.com -- China's new destroyers feature Aegis tech copied from U.S. or China Debuts Aegis Destroyers - SIGNAL Magazine

 

[Vladimir79]

After Reading his asertion that one has to cut vayag open to fit in an engine, I lost the interest to treat his comment as one from an ex-intellegence veteran.

Considering one does have to cut Varyag open to fit it with an engine... his assertion is correct.

Russia is not a super power like soviet union, that is the point I want to say,

And China is not a superpower like the CCCP of which you think it is. That is the point I want to say.

 

[Vladimir79]

Tarun I don't think India is a blue water navy yet maybe in the next 5 years possibly. We are still a brown water navy at this point in time.

If you can field a CSG thousands of kilometeres from friendly shores, you have a blue water capability.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

If you can field a CSG thousands of kilometeres from friendly shores, you have a blue water capability.

you are right Vlad we are not far from being blue water but not quiet there yet also I wonder how effectively we can fight far from our shores,not in the coastal areas but further out and i wonder how the supply chains and other issues would be addressed, as well as maintenace of all the accessories need for blue water navies? Currently USA,UK,RUSSIA and French are blue water navies but many don't even view the French as a true blue water navy?? Once you guys deliver Gorshokov we will get there faster. Next few countries that may make the list are China,India,Japan and South Korea with China ad India possibly in the next few years.

 

[Vladimir79]

"My guess is no time soon. They can't even catch Russia."

Can Russia launch a missile and have the kinetic warhead hit a 4 feet by 4 feet satellite that is traveling at 22,000 miles an hour at approximately 500 to 600 miles above the Earth? Does Russia have a KE ASAT or is the best that it can do is a more primitive "buckshot-like" effect? See ArmsControlWonk: ASAT Test Bans

Shooting down satellites is childs play. We were doing it in the 1960s. :stinker:

Also, can you show me a picture of a Russian destroyer that looks like an Aegis-class ship with its distinctive phased-array radars?

No, but I can show you the follow on of China's failed AEGIS that looks like a Russian S-300FM Rif.

Regarding the Chinese Aegis, you said:

"It is not an AEGIS class cruiser... don't believe the hype. It is a failed platform they have discontinued."

Why should I take anything that you say seriously? You seem to disagree with most publications in the United States regarding the existence of a Chinese Aegis destroyer. A simple Google search would have informed you of the development of the Chinese Aegis.

Look at the picture, it is of a Type 051C which is their latest air defence destroyer. It has imported Russian S-300FM missiles on it, radar and all. It is not AEGIS, it is Russian.

"The People’s Liberation Army Navy recently introduced two domestically designed and built guided missile destroyers that include Aegis-type radars and related technologies.

Written in 2005, long before the Type 051C came out in 2007 proving Type 052C was a failed design.

 

[Martian]

Vladimir79, I provide sources to back up the statements and views that I make. In post #26, I provided four sources. In contrast, you provide no sources to back up your statements.

You just say whatever you feel like; even when it directly contradicts the information in U.S. publications. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it on faith. There is nothing that I can do when you insist on living in your own world with complete disregard of real-world facts.

In my final attempt to convince you, I will quote two more publications:

"Based on the hull design of the Type 052B (Luyang class) multirole destroyer, the Type 052C features an indigenously developed four-array multifunction phased array radar (PAR) similar to the Aegis AN/SPY-1 equipped by the U.S. Arleigh Burke class and Japanese Kongo class DDG." See http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/type052c_luyang2.asp

"the Type 052C is based on indigenous technology" See http://www.onwar.com/weapons/warships/boats/China_Type052C.html

 

[badguy2000]

Considering one does have to cut Varyag open to fit it with an engine... his assertion is correct.



And China is not a superpower like the CCCP of which you think it is. That is the point I want to say.

however, the one that topples USA eventually will be CHina, not CCCP.

 

[Vladimir79]

Vladimir79, I provide sources to back up the statements and views that I make. In post #26, I provided four sources. In contrast, you provide no sources to back up your statements.

You just say whatever you feel like; even when it directly contradicts the information in U.S. publications. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it on faith. There is nothing that I can do when you insist on living in your own world with complete disregard of real-world facts.

What sources need to be posted? It is fact my country was shooting down satellites while PLAAF was just figuring out how to copy the MiG-15. If that common knowledge requires a source I am affraid you are playing in the wrong league.

If you can't connect the dots on the failure of Type 052C when they cease production for it and switch to the Russian imported defence missiles of Type 051C then I can't help you. It isn't a matter of faith, it is a matter of common sense. Nothing I have said is unfactual so sorry you can't see the big picture.

 

[mattster]

Badguy and Redragon really funny

Its really hilarious to see 2 Chinese guys make fun of the Former Soviet Union and current Russia military strength especially when 95% of the weapons system used by the Chinese military are either:

1) Russian made
2) Poor Chinese copies of Russian design
3) Russian spoon-fed TOT to Chinese companies

For that matter, even their Space capsule looked like a 1960's Soviet Soyuz module.

China is the most over-hyped country in the world !!!......period.

They are not even close to being a military super-power. I would argue that US, Russia, France, and GB are all way ahead of china in terms of military power.

China may be the 3rd largest economy because of its cheap export driven economy which like all cheap export driven economies will have to transition to a higher wage higher tech economy. People assume that because China is competitive in building cheap household products, shoes, Iphones, etc.....that they are going to be equally successful in building Hi-tech items.

Its one thing to sell millions of Nike sneakers....its not the same thing to sell a high-tech product like cars, planes, software products, etc. - there you have to compete on creativity, not just cheap mass production.

China's present 10 - 12% growth trajectory has been fueled by cheap low-tech products. When they transition into a high tech export, that will be a whole different ball-game. I have yet to see any Chinese designed high-tech products that is making any waves in the West, other than some cheap Huawei products which again are direct copies of Cisco products.

 

[badguy2000]

Its really hilarious to see 2 Chinese guys make fun of the Former Soviet Union and current Russia military strength especially when 95% of the weapons system used by the Chinese military are either:

1) Russian made
2) Poor Chinese copies of Russian design
3) Russian spoon-fed TOT to Chinese companies

For that matter, even their Space capsule looked like a 1960's Soviet Soyuz module.

China is the most over-hyped country in the world !!!......period.

They are not even close to being a military super-power. I would argue that US, Russia, France, and GB are all way ahead of china in terms of military power.

China may be the 3rd largest economy because of its cheap export driven economy which like all cheap export driven economies will have to transition to a higher wage higher tech economy. People assume that because China is competitive in building cheap household products, shoes, Iphones, etc.....that they are going to be equally successful in building Hi-tech items.

Its one thing to sell millions of Nike sneakers....its not the same thing to sell a high-tech product like cars, planes, software products, etc. - there you have to compete on creativity, not just cheap mass production.

China's present 10 - 12% growth trajectory has been fueled by cheap low-tech products. When they transition into a high tech export, that will be a whole different ball-game. I have yet to see any Chinese designed high-tech products that is making any waves in the West, other than some cheap Huawei products which again are direct copies of Cisco products.

another one to be surrounded and watched.....:twizt:

 

[hbogyt]

re

Shooting down satellites is childs play. We were doing it in the 1960s. :stinker:



No, but I can show you the follow on of China's failed AEGIS that looks like a Russian S-300FM Rif.

Look at the picture, it is of a Type 051C which is their latest air defence destroyer. It has imported Russian S-300FM missiles on it, radar and all. It is not AEGIS, it is Russian.



Written in 2005, long before the Type 051C came out in 2007 proving Type 052C was a failed design.

052C was a success. 051C that uses s-300 was a parallel development.

NCO is afterall NCO. I don't think their words are weighted with as much authoriy as that of COs, especially in this matter.

 

[mattster]

another one to be surrounded and watched.....:twizt:

Badguy.....Every line in my post can be independently verified through public sources.

I am not the only one to think that China is overhyped ??

I have lost count of the number of recent articles by many experts in respectable journals, all warning about the Chinese economy, China bubble, etc. Some of them are even written by Chinese authors.

China is simply too much hype and one of the reasons is because - Communist political systems can ban all the bad news, and only publish only the positive stuff. Also there is no transparency in the system. China can make all kinds of claims about growth and progress, etc, but there is no way for anyone to check the facts.

Democratic systems - always highlight the problems and tensions. Good news is seldom front page stuff in democratic countries and its not easy to bluff about your economy or growth, and its even harder to hide your problems from the Media.

 

[Martian]

I disagree mattster. China has forex reserves of over 2 trillion dollars. That isn't hype. It's real. Also, China is moving up the economic food chain. They are indeed starting to sell planes; such as the 90 seat ARJ-21.

"China wins 25-plane ARJ21 order from GE, 1st overseas deal." See China wins 25-plane ARJ21 order from GE, 1st overseas deal | Airshow China 2008 | Webcasts | en.AvBuyer.com.cn

China is also busy developing a 190-seat C919. It is clear that they are targeting the commercial aircraft industry.

The thing that I can't understand is why isn't India copying China as much as possible. Why not license, reverse-engineer, or invest in lots of R&D to develop India's technology and economy as much as possible? Doesn't India want $2,000,000,000,000.00 in forex reserves too? Where is India's SEZs (special economic zones) with full government support?

 

[mattster]

I disagree mattster. China has forex reserves of over 2 trillion dollars. That isn't hype. It's reality. Also, China is moving up the economic food chain. They are indeed starting to sell planes; such as the 90 seat ARJ-21.

"China wins 25-plane ARJ21 order from GE, 1st overseas deal." See China wins 25-plane ARJ21 order from GE, 1st overseas deal | Airshow China 2008 | Webcasts | en.AvBuyer.com.cn

China is also busy developing a 190-seat C919. It is clear that they are targeting the commercial aircraft industry.

The thing that I can't understand is why isn't India copying China as much as possible. Why not license, reverse-engineer, or invest in lots of R&D to develop India's technology and economy as much as possible? Doesn't India want $2,000,000,000,000.00 in forex reserves too?

You need to read between the lines to understand these deals - The Chinese ARJ is only going to be bought by Chinese companies. The reason GE Leasing is buying Chinese ARJs is because GE wants to sell aircraft engines to Chinese airlines.

Why do you think that EADS owned Airbus is having HAL build some of their low-tech components - its because they want to get more business in India.

I certainly wouldnt want to fly in a Chinese designed ARJ !!

 

[Martian]

"I certainly wouldnt want to fly in a Chinese designed ARJ !!"

That is an irrational fear. China has decades of experience building military jets. They have also built civilian turboprops, such as the MA60. The ARJ-21 is basically a Chinese plane with GE engines. Safety shouldn't be an issue.

After all, Russia and India are already buying advanced Chinese technology.

"Russian power producer OGK-2 OGKB.MM turned to a consortium of Chinese engineering firms, led by Harbin Turbine Co., granting them a tender to build two 660 MW coal-powered turbines by 2012. It was the first such deal in the sector between Russian and Chinese firms."

"The domestic metallurgical and parts market simply cannot provide what we need," said Yury Lastochkin, general director of NPO Saturn, a leading Russian turbine maker.

See http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUSL0433798720080505?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

I know India has also bought four 660 MW coal-powered turbines from China, but I have to go and look for the source.