MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Filtercoffee]

You have repeated this nonsense before and many people here have debunked it.

Older jets are harder to maintain. IAF have enough heavy fighters already.

F15 won't come nobody is even considering them. Give it up pal.

I dont know what to say, its only till AMCA is ready. F-15 is a better choice, even in small numbers. The reason was a far choice even The DM was seen in the cockpit. So why would they when Dassault is seen as the perfect choice. We are friends with the US so it is looking better in a hypothetical scenario. Can you tell me what made sense according to you other then what you have written? I am new to this defence forum and dont have much to say, it will help me. Please dont take it as if I am mocking you.

 

[WolfPack86]

Saab Begins Work On IAF's MMRCA Tender
Saab, a Swedish based automobile manufacturer, is looking forward to conducting meetings with the Indian companies this month, to develop the Indian ecosystem to build the multi-role fighter aircraft.

In April 2018, the Indian Air Force announced an initial tender or Request for Information (RFI) for the Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA). Saab, being one among the global defense manufacturers to acquire the bid, replied in response to the IAF's initial tender in July 2018 with it's Gripen E MRFA.

According to sources, Mats Palmberg, VP Industrial Partnership, Saab, has confirmed that the company has already conducted surveys for aerostructures parts, which include sub-assemblies, machined, and sheet metal parts. He also said that Saab is in constant talk with its international partners and suppliers and the Indian companies.


"The industry evaluation tour will take place for 10 days in mid-October. A dozen Indian SMEs suitable for systems manufacturing will be met by a team consisting of different Saab companies, international system suppliers headed by members of the Gripen for India team, " states Mats, on the sideline of India Sweden Innovation Day.

"Some discussions have resulted in MoUs with a mutual intention to work together on a broader basis in defense and also in the execution phase of the Gripen E program in India," he adds.

Along with the fighter jets, Saab is also intending to offer the comprehensive transfer of capability packages focused on building indigenous capabilities to design, develop, produce and maintain a modern state of the art fighter system platform.

"The build-up of those capabilities will require substantial investments from the Indian as well as from international partners. Investments will need to be made in facilities, training, machinery, etc.," concludes Mats.
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=737348

 

[Indrajit]

Saab is wasting its time. It doesn’t matter if their offering is attractive or not, this is now a straight fight between the French and the Americans. The Americans are pushing hard on trade and only a major order will satisfy them. The government should cut out the bs and just finalise a deal directly with the country concerned. This pointless exercise is even more daft than the previous edition.

 

[Flying Dagger]

I dont know what to say, its only till AMCA is ready. F-15 is a better choice, even in small numbers. The reason was a far choice even The DM was seen in the cockpit. So why would they when Dassault is seen as the perfect choice. We are friends with the US so it is looking better in a hypothetical scenario. Can you tell me what made sense according to you other then what you have written? I am new to this defence forum and dont have much to say, it will help me. Please dont take it as if I am mocking you.

Old F 15 and their upgrade maintenance is a very costly affair nor do they provide us any advantage which we don't have with Flankers which will be upgraded soon.

A new plane isn't just some samosa you can buy from anywhere in Delhi and mix it with chutney to have the perfect evening snack. Training maintenance spare parts supply guarantee engines these thing are also part of deal. So neither they will be cheap nor bringing anything new.

IAF require numbers not a circus of umpteen no. Of platforms in small no. with USA having the string to take them down when they want. We already have Rafale armed with meteor and mica which gives us access to western tech.


By the time we will be done with getting familiar with F 15 they will be outdated as well as AMCA will be in advance stage of induction..

Your suggestion is akhand chutiyapa sorry but that is what it is. Don't mind bro but the only aircraft we are inducting now is Rafale and the future is Tejas.

When you don't know what to say listen to others and learn and keep those hypothetical scenario little but sensible too. Anyway we aren't getting them so no point in wasting time over it either.

 

[Flying Dagger]

It will be utterly stupid to go for anything else except Rafale's advanced advance version. It should always be our aim to reduce types of aircraft to save a huge amount of money in inventory. WE have Sukhois for heavy category, we should have Ruffle for medium category and Tejas for light category. We don't need any other aircraft.

Sukhoi are already too many than required we should have stopped at around 230-40 and focus on its upgrade maintenance spare supply etc .

MMRCA 2.0 is a chance for France to offer more economical package to get more orders else 18- 54 Rafale would be max India will go far. If they win MMRCA 2.0 they'll get 114 +57 .

Others are basically prop with America having an outside chance for F 18

I know we all are frustrated with this never ending babudom and lethargy but this is a legacy of INC and we will be dealing with it over a long period of time.

Let's be honest we don't have budget for Rafale in huge number so a couple more squadrons and throwing bones here and there to make sure we get the best out of this deal is the way to go.

 

[Flying Dagger]

'MiG-35 a completely new aircraft, fighter deal only after due process' - IAF Chief
IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa has called Russia's MiG-35 4++ Generation combat plane "a completely new aircraft" but added that the force will select a new fighter only after following the due process of tender, evaluation and test flights. The IAF chief, who was in Russia from July 9 to 12, went to Russia's Kubinka air force base where he saw the MiG-35 jet.

"In Kubinka, I happened to see the MiG-35, which has undergone major changes and upgrades. This is a completely new aircraft - very interesting. But for us, the procurement system remains the same. If there is a need for any type of aircraft, we hold a tender for compliance with all the declared characteristics. And we proceed to consideration at the next stages only after our test pilot makes an introductory flight on the proposed aircraft," the IAF chief told Krasnaya Zvezda, the official newspaper of the Russian Ministry of Defense.

The MiG-35, which is produced at Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG factory in Lukhovitsy near Moscow, is in the race for the 114-fighter jet deal for the IAF. The other combat aircraft in the race for the mega IAF fighter deal are Dassault Aviation’s Rafale, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet built by Boeing, Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Fighting Falcon, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab’s Gripen.

Earlier in June 2019, the Russian Aerospace Force received its first MiG-35 fighter. Russian Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko and United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) General Director Yuri Slyusar had in August 2018 signed a deal for six MiG-35s by 2023 for the Russian Air Force.


MiG-35 features ::

The Russian fighter comes in two variants - MiG-35 (single-seat) and MiG-35D (double-seat, can be used as a trainer). Built on the MiG-29K/KUB and MiG-29M/M2 fighters, the MiG-35 is the most advanced 4++ Generation multirole jet, according to Russian defence officials with a maximum g load of +10.

With nine hardpoints to carry missiles and bombs, and one 30 mm Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1 autocannon with 150 rounds, the MiG-35/35D can engage stationary as well as mobile targets in any weather, day or night, in air and on the ground. The combat aircraft can be armed with a range of short and medium-range air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles, guided aerial bombs, unguided rockets and bombs.

There are plans to make the MiG-35 capable of firing the Kh-36 Grom-1 AS-23 tactical air-to-surface cruise missile with 130-260 kilometre range. Slyusar had in January 2017 told Russian President Vladimir Putin that the MiG-35 could also be equipped with laser weaponry in the future.

The fighter is equipped with the fifth-generation navigation, information and targeting systems, quad-redundant fly-by-wire flight control system, radar and optical locating stations, helmet-mounted targeting/display system, communications and self-defence equipment, along with cockpit instrumentation.

Two FADEC RD-33MK Morskaya Osa engines power the fighter and can be equipped with a thrust vectoring nozzle to increase manoeuverability. Phazotron Zhuk-A/AE active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, mounted on the MiG-35 has a range of 250 km and can detect 30 targets simultaneously, and engage up to 6 air targets and 4 ground targets together.

The MiG-35 has OLS-UEM (13SM-1) electro-optical targeting station to detect ground, sea and air targets. The infrared (FLIR) sensor fitted on the plane can see aerial threats from 55 km away while the multimode laser range finder has a range of 20 km. Its OLS-K/OLS-KE podded electro-optical targeting system can find ground targets up to 20 km and sea targets up to 40 km.

Capable of flying at Mach 2.2 (2,400 kmph,1,490 mph), the plane has a range of 2,400 km (1490 miles) and a combat radius of 1,000 km (620 miles). When fitted with three external fuel tanks, the aircraft's range goes up to 3,100 km (1,930 miles) while with aerial refuelling it increases to 6,000 km (3,730 miles). The service ceiling of the MiG-35 is 19,000 metres (62,340 feet) and the plane can climb at a rate of 330 metre per second (65,000 feet per minute).
http://www.defencenews.in/article/M...eal-only-after-due-process---IAF-Chief-586077

This aircraft is a beast we should have gone for Mig 29 + Mirage 2k combine with 400 - 500 of these birds in 80s It would have really helped the IAF and defence industry in India.

 

[WolfPack86]

We’re inside the Typhoon maintenance hangar at the Luftwaffe’s 74 Tactical Air Wing at Neuberg. The
@Eurofighter
is, of course, one of 7 responders to India’s 114
@MakeInIndia
fighter buy & build contest and a finalist in the erstwhile MMRCA.

 

[WolfPack86]

IAF to get 114 fighter aircraft! SQRs gettng finalised
With the SQRs (Services Qualitative Requirements) being finalised for the 114 Fighter Aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF), the stage is now set for the process for the procurement of these aircraft has started. Explaining the procedure a senior officer said, “Now that the SQRs for the fighter aircraft are getting finalised, as per the laid down the procedure will go to the technical management committee before being put up in the DAC which is headed by the defence minister Rajnath Singh. Once the DAC approves then the RfPs will be to be sent out to the global aerospace majors.”

“Minimum time it will take the process to be completed is not less than a couple of years,” he explained. The acquisition of these 114 fighter aircraft which is under the Defence Ministry’s `Strategic Partnership’ (SP) Model, has seven contenders who have envisaged their interest in the Rs 1.75 lakh crore deal.

Among the European companies including Dassault Aviation of France has offered `Rafale’, the UK based BAE Systems is leading `Typhoon’ bid and the Swedish offer of Gripen E/F from SAAB. From the US-based Boeing Company has offered F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin has offered the F-16V which as reported earlier has been optimised for India. At this year’s Aero India Lockheed Martin had recast its offering as the ‘F-21’. And from Russia MiG-35 is in the race.


In an earlier interaction, Dan Gillian, vice president of F/A-18 and E/A-18 programs at Boeing had said that “If the Company gets contracts from the IAF and the Indian Navy then it was ready to set up a new production facility in India.”

ALSO READ | Amit Shah directs CRPF to keep combat profile ‘young and fit’; shift aged troops to light jobs

Talking about the growing Indo-US relations, Gillan had said that the defence and security have been on an upswing, therefore there will be no issues related to transfer of technology (ToT).

Both Boeing Company and Lockheed Martin have tie-ups with state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Mahindra Defence Systems (MDS) and Tata Advanced Systems for manufacturing the aircraft in India and creating an ecosystem for the aerospace sector.

Interestingly the US-based Boeing is also in contention with the French Rafale for an aircraft deal for the Indian Navy which is looking for 57 twin-engine fighters for its aircraft carriers.
https://www.defencenews.in/article/IAF-to-get-114-fighter-aircraft!-SQRs-gettng-finalised-798304

 

[nongaddarliberal]

IAF to get 114 fighter aircraft! SQRs gettng finalised
With the SQRs (Services Qualitative Requirements) being finalised for the 114 Fighter Aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF), the stage is now set for the process for the procurement of these aircraft has started. Explaining the procedure a senior officer said, “Now that the SQRs for the fighter aircraft are getting finalised, as per the laid down the procedure will go to the technical management committee before being put up in the DAC which is headed by the defence minister Rajnath Singh. Once the DAC approves then the RfPs will be to be sent out to the global aerospace majors.”

“Minimum time it will take the process to be completed is not less than a couple of years,” he explained. The acquisition of these 114 fighter aircraft which is under the Defence Ministry’s `Strategic Partnership’ (SP) Model, has seven contenders who have envisaged their interest in the Rs 1.75 lakh crore deal.

Among the European companies including Dassault Aviation of France has offered `Rafale’, the UK based BAE Systems is leading `Typhoon’ bid and the Swedish offer of Gripen E/F from SAAB. From the US-based Boeing Company has offered F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin has offered the F-16V which as reported earlier has been optimised for India. At this year’s Aero India Lockheed Martin had recast its offering as the ‘F-21’. And from Russia MiG-35 is in the race.


In an earlier interaction, Dan Gillian, vice president of F/A-18 and E/A-18 programs at Boeing had said that “If the Company gets contracts from the IAF and the Indian Navy then it was ready to set up a new production facility in India.”

ALSO READ | Amit Shah directs CRPF to keep combat profile ‘young and fit’; shift aged troops to light jobs

Talking about the growing Indo-US relations, Gillan had said that the defence and security have been on an upswing, therefore there will be no issues related to transfer of technology (ToT).

Both Boeing Company and Lockheed Martin have tie-ups with state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Mahindra Defence Systems (MDS) and Tata Advanced Systems for manufacturing the aircraft in India and creating an ecosystem for the aerospace sector.

Interestingly the US-based Boeing is also in contention with the French Rafale for an aircraft deal for the Indian Navy which is looking for 57 twin-engine fighters for its aircraft carriers.
https://www.defencenews.in/article/IAF-to-get-114-fighter-aircraft!-SQRs-gettng-finalised-798304

1.75 lakh crore rupees is 25 billion dollars. With this amount, we can afford 110 Rafales. Let's hope Rafale wins the competition. We cannot add any more fighter types to IAF's already Hodge podge inventory.

 

[aditya10r]

IAF to get 114 fighter aircraft! SQRs gettng finalised
With the SQRs (Services Qualitative Requirements) being finalised for the 114 Fighter Aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF), the stage is now set for the process for the procurement of these aircraft has started. Explaining the procedure a senior officer said, “Now that the SQRs for the fighter aircraft are getting finalised, as per the laid down the procedure will go to the technical management committee before being put up in the DAC which is headed by the defence minister Rajnath Singh. Once the DAC approves then the RfPs will be to be sent out to the global aerospace majors.”

“Minimum time it will take the process to be completed is not less than a couple of years,” he explained. The acquisition of these 114 fighter aircraft which is under the Defence Ministry’s `Strategic Partnership’ (SP) Model, has seven contenders who have envisaged their interest in the Rs 1.75 lakh crore deal.

Among the European companies including Dassault Aviation of France has offered `Rafale’, the UK based BAE Systems is leading `Typhoon’ bid and the Swedish offer of Gripen E/F from SAAB. From the US-based Boeing Company has offered F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin has offered the F-16V which as reported earlier has been optimised for India. At this year’s Aero India Lockheed Martin had recast its offering as the ‘F-21’. And from Russia MiG-35 is in the race.


In an earlier interaction, Dan Gillian, vice president of F/A-18 and E/A-18 programs at Boeing had said that “If the Company gets contracts from the IAF and the Indian Navy then it was ready to set up a new production facility in India.”

ALSO READ | Amit Shah directs CRPF to keep combat profile ‘young and fit’; shift aged troops to light jobs

Talking about the growing Indo-US relations, Gillan had said that the defence and security have been on an upswing, therefore there will be no issues related to transfer of technology (ToT).

Both Boeing Company and Lockheed Martin have tie-ups with state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Mahindra Defence Systems (MDS) and Tata Advanced Systems for manufacturing the aircraft in India and creating an ecosystem for the aerospace sector.

Interestingly the US-based Boeing is also in contention with the French Rafale for an aircraft deal for the Indian Navy which is looking for 57 twin-engine fighters for its aircraft carriers.
https://www.defencenews.in/article/IAF-to-get-114-fighter-aircraft!-SQRs-gettng-finalised-798304

25 BILLION USD.

______________________
How is it so expensive?

 

[nongaddarliberal]

25 BILLION USD.

______________________
How is it so expensive?

110 western fighters with weapons and spares will cost that much. 70-80 million dollar figures are bullshit. We're in expensive times. If you look at all the new fighter jet contracts, it comes to 150-200 million dollars per plane. The exception being F 16 sales.

Meanwhile the Chinese are probably churning out J 20s for 60 million each.

 

[Bhurki]

25 BILLION USD.

______________________
How is it so expensive?

You can't buy any jet under $200m/unit.
Its bound to include extra equipment, spares, weapons etc.
This is what i have been calling out people on since the rafale deal. Everyone was stupid enough to think that deal was expensive only because it had something super special included that could be avoided in a future contract (ISE). Fact is even a standard rafale deal today will still cost no less than 80% of that..
$25B may be an overkill, but i fully expect it to be in the $20-22B range.

 

[Armand2REP]

You can't buy any jet under $200m/unit.
Its bound to include extra equipment, spares, weapons etc.
This is what i have been calling out people on since the rafale deal. Everyone was stupid enough to think that deal was expensive only because it had something super special included that could be avoided in a future contract (ISE). Fact is even a standard rafale deal today will still cost no less than 80% of that..
$25B may be an overkill, but i fully expect it to be in the $20-22B range.

Qatar ordered 12 more Rafale for €1 billion, that is the approximate cost India will pay for follow on orders.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Qatar ordered 12 more Rafale for €1 billion, that is the approximate cost India will pay for follow on orders.

Amounts to 91.6 million USD per plane. All others will cost as much too, so Rafale is the only logical option for MRCA. But I hope they get it done quickly. And the great thing about MRCA is that HAL is out of the picture this time. The manufacturer can choose their Indian partner.

 

[Armand2REP]

Amounts to 91.6 million USD per plane. All others will cost as much too, so Rafale is the only logical option for MRCA. But I hope they get it done quickly. And the great thing about MRCA is that HAL is out of the picture this time. The manufacturer can choose their Indian partner.

If they choose any other fighter they will be paying $200 million+ to buy the associated infrastructure of a first time purchase. In the case of Rafale, it is already paid which makes it automatic L1. Now that the deal is cleared by the courts, there is no fear to buy as many as they want. Any other bidder will bring much more scrutiny.

 

[Bhurki]

If they choose any other fighter they will be paying $200 million+ to buy the associated infrastructure of a first time purchase. In the case of Rafale, it is already paid which makes it automatic L1.

Even extra rafale deal would include spares, PBL, weapons etc. making it much more expensive than just $110m+.
Unless you think of sharing weapons, spares from older deal and thinning out operational advantage for each unit which is what qatar is planning to do..

 

[Armand2REP]

Even extra rafale deal would include spares, PBL, weapons etc. making it much more expensive than just $110m+.
Unless you think of sharing weapons, spares from older deal and thinning out operational advantage for each unit which is what qatar is planning to do..

Notes
* an identical unit price to that paid by the French armed forces
** such costs are one off and will not be incurred for any future batches.

https://www.opindia.com/2018/03/das...government-congress-rahul-gandhi-lies-expose/

$4 billion are one off costs that will not have to be repeated.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Notes
* an identical unit price to that paid by the French armed forces
** such costs are one off and will not be incurred for any future batches.

https://www.opindia.com/2018/03/das...government-congress-rahul-gandhi-lies-expose/

$4 billion are one off costs that will not have to be repeated.

All the additional Rafales will also have to have India specific enhancements, more air shelters will have to be built, and more weapons and spares will have to be procured. It won't be as expensive as the first 36, but I think the price per plane will be much more than 105 million. Anyway, the government seems to have accepted that fact and put aside 25 billion for the whole thing. If India can arrange a payment option of 10 years, i.e 2.5 billion a year, that would be quite manageable.

 

[Armand2REP]

All the additional Rafales will also have to have India specific enhancements

ISE costs are certification and software related, those costs will not be reoccurring. This aircraft is already tailored and certified to exactly what India wants. The others are not.

 

[Bhurki]

All the additional Rafales will also have to have India specific enhancements, more air shelters will have to be built, and more weapons and spares will have to be procured

Exactly...

ISE costs are certification and software related, those costs will not be reoccurring. This aircraft is already tailored and certified to exactly what India wants. The others are not.

If you look at the list of reported ISE, a lot of it is hardware like Advanced jammers.
Even if one time cost of integration is discounted, it'll still cost a lot of money to procure these subsystems as add ons..
Or do you assume these add ons will somehow be rolled into the base price?