MIG-29K Vs NLCA

Kunal Biswas

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MIG-29K Vs NLCA


On this thread we will discuss abt the best Aircraft for Indian Carriers, The contenders are Mig-29k & NLCA..

I will Post Information and Pics and my own Idea abt the matter, All members are welcome to share their Ideas..

Also Pls try to avoid:

1. American F-35..
2. Russian NFGFA..


As this aircraft are meant for future so they have nothing to do in present situations..

Thanks!
 

Kunal Biswas

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NAVY`s MIG-29K

MIG-29K



SIZE:
# Length: 17.3 m (57.76 ft)
# Wingspan: 11.99 m (39.34 ft)
# Height: 4.40 m (14.44 ft)

Performance:
# Ferry range: 2,000 km (1,240 mi) / 3,000 km (1,860 mi) with 3 drop tanks
# Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,400 ft)
Armament:

* 1 x 30 mm GSh-30-1 cannon with 100 rounds
* 9 hardpoints: 8 x under-wing, 1 x centerline for up to 5,500 kg (12,125 lb) of weapons and fuel tanks[38] including

Air to air missiles:
* AA-11 "Archer" infrared-guided short range AAM
* AA-10 "Alamo" semi-active radar homing medium range AAM, AAM,
* AA-12 "Adder" active radar homing medium range AAM

Anti-ship missile
* Kh-31A medium range sea-skimming Anti ship missile,
* Kh-35 long-range active radar homing head Anti ship missile


Zhuk radar




Zhuk-M (Export Designation Zhuk-ME)


The N010M Zhuk-M is an advanced variant of the original N010 Zhuk radar introducing advanced air to surface functions like mapping and terrain following. The radar forms part of the MiG-29SMT upgrade, the Zhuk-ME finding success on export MiG-29 aircraft to countries like India. The radar features improved signal processing and has a detection range of up to 120 km vs a 5 m2 RCS target for the export variant, and up to 10 targets tracked and up to 4 attacked at once in air to air mode.[5] The tracking range is 0.83 - 0.85 of the detection range. In air to surface mode the radar can detect a tank from up to 25 km away and a bridge from 120 km away, a naval destroyer could be detected up to 300 km away and up to two surface targets can be tracked at once. The radar has a weight of 220 kg and a scanning area of +/- 85 degrees in azimuth and +56/-40 degrees in elevation. The antenna is an electronically scanned slotted planar array and has a diameter of 624 mm.[5]

ENGINE: Klimov RD-33



HAL master the assembly of next generation jet engines, including RD-33MK (Sea Wasp) engines for deck based MiG-29K naval fighters being acquired under the Gorshkov aircraft carrier deal. It will also help develop thrust-vectoring engines for the MiG-35 fighters.

General characteristics
* Type: Afterburning Turbofan
* Length: 4,229 mm (166.50 in)
* Diameter: 1,000 mm ( 39.37 in)
* Dry weight: 1,055 kg (2,326 lb)

Performance
* Maximum thrust: 50.0 kN (11,230 lbf) Dry, 81.3 kN (18,285 lbf) Afterburning
* Specific fuel consumption: 75 kg/(kN·h) (0.77 lb/(lbf·h)) dry, 188 kg/(kN·h) (1.85 lb/(lbf·h))

US$46.25 million including spares and support
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Nlca

NLCA




Size:
# Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
# Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
# Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)

Useful Weight:
# Loaded weight: 9,500 kg (20,945 lb)
# Max takeoff weight: 13,500 kg (31,967 lb)


Performance:
# Range: 3000 km (1,840 mi (without refueling))
# Service ceiling: 16,500 m (54,000 ft (engine re-igniter safely capable))
Armament:

# Guns: 1× mounted 23 mm twin-barrel GSh-23 cannon with 220 rounds of ammunition.
# Hardpoints: 8 total: 1× beneath the port-side intake trunk, 6× under-wing, and 1× under-fuselage with a capacity of >4000 kg external fuel and ordnance

# Air-to-air missiles:
* Vympel R-77 (NATO reporting name: AA-12 Adder)
* Vympel R-73 (NATO reporting name: AA-11 Archer)

# Anti-ship missile
* Kh-35
* Kh-31
* Scalp

Hybrid EL/M-2032 radar..



DRDO to co-operate with Israel Aerospace Industries to integrate a Hybrid version of the EL/M-2032 radar for use with Tejas.

EL/M-2032 air-to-air mode has a detection and tracking range of up to 150 km, the air-to-ground mode generates high resolution radar imagery of locations at up to 150 km, and air-to-sea mode can detect and classify naval targets at ranges of up to 300 km

Physical Characteristics
72-100 Kg depending on antenna size.
2-3 KVA. depending on Transmitter configuration.
Antenna Size: adapted to aircraft nose limitations



Engine: General Electric F404-GE-IN20




The F404-GE-IN20 is a variant of F404-GE-402 engine designed to meet the requirements of the Indian Air Force and Navy for the Tejas, formerly LCA, combat aircraft. Modifications introduced into the -IN20 engine include redundant features and an advanced Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC).

The Indian ADA agency awarded General Electric a $105 million contract in February 2004 for development engineering and production of 17 F404-GE-IN20 engines. The Indian Air Force will take delivery of its first -IN20 engines in 2006. These engines will be used to power low rate (also called limited) production Tejas/LCA aircraft.

General characteristics

* Type: Afterburning turbofan
* Length: 154 in (3,912 mm)
* Diameter: 35 in (889 mm)
* Dry weight: 2,282 lb (1,036 kg)


Maximum thrust:


* 11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) military thrust
* 20,200 lbf (83.2 kN rated ) with afterburner ( http://www.scramble.nl/wiki/index.php?title=General_Electric_F404#F404-GE-IN20)

# Specific fuel consumption:
# Military thrust: 0.81 lb/(lbf·h) (82.6 kg/(kN·h))
# Full afterburner: 1.74 lb/(lbf·h) (177.5 kg/(kN·h))

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/4475-1/GE-engine-info.pdf

US$31.09 million (Naval version)
 
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pmaitra

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Just one clarification. Is the NLCA going to use GE-F404 or GE-F414? Isn't the first batch of the LCA slated to use GE-F414?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Just one clarification. Is the NLCA going to use GE-F404 or GE-F414? Isn't the first batch of the LCA slated to use GE-F414?
Wiki says F404IN20, F-414 is good, Any article u have?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Above Specifications suggest that MIG-29 is a better fighter, most importantly it have twin engines for better survivability..

Merits:
1. Twin Engine, coz more fuel consumption hence reducing the range..
2. All Russian Anti-ship missiles are active radar, means not a pure stand off weapon..



NLCA advantage over MIG-29K:
NLCA is lighter compare to MIG-29k also NLCA carry 3000liters of internal fuel with One engine which gives a impressive range of 3000km, Where as Mig-29k internal fuel capacity is 4560liters of aviation fuel but due to its twin engines it consume fuel much faster than NLCAs, MIG-29K can archive 3000km range with three fuel tanks..

This Makes NLCA a good long range Anti-ship striker, NLCA radar is western so integrating a western missile like Scalp is not a problem, If India MRCA deal goes for euro-fighter or Rafale than we may see NLCA with some common weapons like MICA & SCALPs..
MBDA MICA



It is a replacement for both Super 530 (interception) and Magic II (dogfight). Two can be fired in a two-second interval.MICA is guided to its target by either an active radar homing seeker (MICA RF, also commonly known as MICA EM) or an imaging infra-red homing seeker (MICA IR). Both seekers are designed to filter out counter-measures such as chaff and decoy flares. A thrust vector control unit fitted to the rocket motor increases the missile's agility. MICA is designed to be capable of "lock-on after launch," meaning the missile can be launched at targets which its seeker can not yet detect.

Operational range : from < 500 m to > 60 km
Flight altitude: up to 11,000 m
Speed: Mach 4
Guidance system : Inertial guidance
MICA-EM: Active radar homing
MICA-IR: Imaging Infrared homing


Storm Shadow/SCALP





The stealthy missile has a range in excess of 250 kilometres (155 mi),[2] is powered by a turbojet at Mach 0.8 and can be carried by the Tornado GR4, Saab Gripen, Italian Tornado IDS, Eurofighter Typhoon, Nimrod MRA4, Dassault Mirage 2000 and Dassault Rafale aircraft.[2] The F-35 Lightning II will also carry the missile once the aircraft enters service.[3] The BROACH warhead features an initial penetrating charge to clear soil or enter a bunker, then a variable delay fuze to control detonation of the main warhead. The missile weighs about 1,300 kilograms (2,866 lb) has a maximum body diameter of 0.48m and a wingspan of 3 metres (9.8 ft). Intended targets are command, control and communications; airfields; ports and power stations; AMS/ammunition storage; ships/submarines in port; bridges and other high-value strategic targets.[2]

It is a fire and forget missile, programmed before launch. Once launched, the missile cannot be controlled, its target information changed or be self-destroyed. Mission planners programme the missile with the target air defences and target. The missile follows a path semi-autonomously, on a low flight path guided by GPS and terrain matching to the area of the target.

Close to the target, the missile bunts, climbing to an altitude intended to achieve the best probability of target identification and penetration. During the bunt, the nose cone is jettisoned to allow a high resolution infrared camera to observe the target area (the bunt enlarges the field of vision). The missile then tries to locate its target based upon its targeting information. If it can not, and there is a high risk of collateral damage, it will fly to a crash point instead of risking

Warhead 450 kg BROACH (Bomb Royal Ordnance Augmented CHarge)
Engine Turbomeca Microturbo TRI 60-30 turbojet, producing 5.4 kN thrust
Wingspan 2.84 m
Operational
range over 250 km[1]
Flight altitude 30–40 m
Speed 1,000 km/h Mach 0.8
Guidance
system Inertial, GPS and TERPROM. Terminal guidance using imaging infrared


^^Note the Missle on left wing, Its looks more like Scalp than a fuel tank! :)
 
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Tshering22

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get for the export variant, and up to 10 targets tracked and up to 4 attacked at once in air to air mode.[5] The tracking range is 0.83 - 0.85 of the detection range. In air to surface mode the radar can detect a tank from up to 25 km away and a bridge from 120 km away, a naval destroyer could be detected up to 300 km away and up to two surface targets can be tracked at once. The radar has a weight of 220 kg and a scanning area of +/- 85 degrees in azimuth and +56/-40 degrees in elevation. The antenna is an electronically scanned slotted planar array and has a diameter of 624 mm.[5]
Do we have any air-to-ship missiles that can reach 300KM or exceed this limit? The only missile that crosses this limit I know is K-100 AAM. Thanks for info in advance.
 

p2prada

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Twin engine FTW.

The LCA seems Ok compared to the Mig-29K. The NLCA complementing the Mig-29k is the best option though and is being implemented.
 

mayfair

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What sort of anti-ship missiles are these two supposed to carry? It seems that both of them are designed more for air superiority than attack against ground or sea based targets.
 

Rahul Singh

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Just one clarification. Is the NLCA going to use GE-F404 or GE-F414? Isn't the first batch of the LCA slated to use GE-F414?
F-404 IN will not be used in N-LCA MK-1 beyond NP-1 and NP-2, in fact there will no Naval MK-1 prototype beyond NP-1 and NP-2. During studies it was found that F-404 packs just enough thrust to operate from carrier deck and like its air force counterpart requires new powerful engine to perform its duties satisfactory. So, it was decided then that like airforce-LCA naval-LCA will also be re-engined and its MK-2 variant will be developed in parallel with airforce's one. Once it is certified (expected by 2016) then it will inter into naval service and operate from IACs.

Wiki says F404IN20, F-414 is good, Any article u have?
Naval LCA MK-2 will be equipped with F-414.

"The main aim of LCA (Navy) NP1 and its Fighter counterpart (NP2) is to prove itself with its technologies incorporated as a formidable platform to be a suitable replacement to the ageing fleet of Sea Harriers at a later date in a derivative MK2 configuration with a higher thrust engine and optimised mass", the statement said
LINK
 

p2prada

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I doubt IN will go for a NLCA-MK2. The most realistic date for LCA Mk-2 is FOC by only 2014. Then a year or 2 for the NLCA Mk-2 development which coincides with AMCA's first flight. So, it is not worth the effort.
 

pmaitra

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Wiki says F404IN20, F-414 is good, Any article u have?
From most of the articles I see, there is no clear indication which engine will be used. I get the impression that if Kaveri is ready with Snecma's help, then it will get the Kaveri, or else, more GE-F414 or similar engines will be imported for the NLCA.
 

Rahul Singh

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I doubt IN will go for a NLCA-MK2. The most realistic date for LCA Mk-2 is FOC by only 2014. Then a year or 2 for the NLCA Mk-2 development which coincides with AMCA's first flight. So, it is not worth the effort.
As per what i have read the AF-LCA MK-2 and the N-LCA Mk-2 will be concurrently developed and if everything go well then by 2016 AF LCA Mk-2 will get FOC and by 2017 NLCA MK-2 will be certified for carrier born flight operations. In my view that AMCA thing is irreverent here, nobody expecting AF-AMCA fly before 2017 and N-AMCA before 2018-19 and their MK-1 variants acquiring FOC before 2023-24. So in my view LCA Mk-2 will be bought by navy in numbers and if fact Navy has already sourced out some 800 crores for the development of N-LCA MK-2 prototypes.

There will be many improvements over MK-1 and prominent among these will be an AESA and many fifth generation fighter technologies minus structural stealth features.
 
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gogbot

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Frankly speaking , the Mig-29K is the best of limited options.
WE need a cost effective STOBAR aircraft for the Vikramaditya and the Mig-29 was on the table.

I don't really see any need or interest from the navy itself to operate the machines in any carrier past IAC-1.

With IAC-1 presumably being the Last STOBAR equipped carrier. Mig-29 no longer has a future in the Indian navy past the medium term.

The Ideal configuration for IAC-2(assuming the reports of CATOBAR configuration) will be LCA and F-18's.

The ideal Configuration for IAC-3(based on all the rumor and speculation about it being a Nuclear powered super carrier) should be N-FGFA or N-AMCA or both , with by this point N-LCA's to provide the numbers.

When applicable we should replace the Mig-29's with N-LCA and or 5th gen aircraft(most likely N-FGFA seeing as to how the Russians may design it with considerations for STOBAR config)

Mig-29K vs the N-LCA.

Since the N-LCA is essentially the LCA-MKII , we are talking about a matured Tejas platform. with a better spec then the Mig-29K and being an in house development.
why would we ever need the Mig-29K.
 

vishal_lionheart

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Hii Kunal, Wish you very Happy New Year!

Can you tell me the difference between RD 33 mk improved engine vs GE 414 engine? and its merit and demerits ?
which 1 is suitable for India ?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Hii Kunal, Wish you very Happy New Year!

Can you tell me the difference between RD 33 mk improved engine vs GE 414 engine? and its merit and demerits ?
which 1 is suitable for India ?
F414-GE-INS6 is for sure, but its fuel consumption will be more compare to RD-33-3, but will give more power..
Also western engines are reliable in air compare to Russian engines..
 

HarshaHalsur

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Re: Nlca

NLCA





All,






















US$31.09 million (Naval version)

Any conventional war is war of attrition....but if you are one step behind enemy in technology they can overrun easily.... we need the best in few numbers
and rest at low cost self reliant weapons,planes tanks,ships, missiles..etc. LCA wud perform badly on enemy soil specaily on ground targets. at the same time the best enemy planes and air to air missiles would take out lca,migs.sukhois without any distinction. so i wud say use the LCA to shield our best strike aircrafts, if we were to loose them we can rebuild them(self reliant). So the question shud be how to use NLCA and mIG29k in what numbers than.... which is the best.
 

Kunal Biswas

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If you thinking that way ahead then we better induct only top end Generation in both light and heavy catagory..

Until then we have to relay on what is available with freedom of technology, shooting down an Aircraft is not that easy when they are coordinated and well aware and properly armed to counter threads..
 

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