a) Search for better money doesn't equate to personal political/regional preferences That would make Gulf/Saudi the bestest place in everyone's hearts.@Cliff@sea @thinker USSR is dead, and even at its peak people would have given an arm and leg to emigrate to the West not to the Soviet block.
Even today, people are crazy to emigrate to the West and not Russia.
Good memory and recall.This is a very important thread. It is worth while reckoning who had done what for backward India.
Russia and prior to that Soviet Union has been a steadfast friend. It was a two polar world. For some stupid reason Nehru and his leftist colleagues preferred to deal with Russia and rebuked US for Cold War, Cuban crisis and Vietnam War, leave aside countless little wars which US fought in Latin America. Then a few major wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
But other than Soviet/Russian support in UN Security Council, they had nothing to offer. India needed massive economic aid Russia had nothing to offer other than guns and a few old technology projects here and there. Hence India had to look for money and technical assistance to US.
Soviet Veto at UN kept Kashmir slipping out of India's hand. But none of these vetoes were worth anything if it came without developmental aid.
Now let us see how US dealt with India.
1. The rogue duo of John and Allen Dulles ridiculed India for everything in fifties. Pakistan was there favourite country for economic and military aid.
2. During height of El Niño in 1965/67 when India's farm output took a serious hit, US shipped 10 million tons of grain to stave off hunger.
3. During 1962 Chinese invasion John F Kennedy sided with India and told Chinese to turn back. India began to appreciate US more, but that was not to be.
4. That massive military assistance US provided to Pakistan was used by them in 1965. Luckily that highly advanced weaponry was outside the technical capability of Pakistan. Pakistan failed and India rejoiced.
5. In 1971 the greatest disservice to India was done when during height of Bangladesh War, US rushed nuclear equipped seventh fleet to Bay of Bengal to beat up India.
6. Later US after 1971, a bit dismayed with their client Pakistan, increased economic aid to India via World Bank and IMF etc. a special grouping of Aid India Club was created . It channeled huge amount of aid including farm aid to India. In ten years India was food surplus. It imported some but exported equal amount.
7. With Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan, India was alarmed. Pakistan was again a favoured nation for military assistance. This alarmed India and it turned to Soviet Union for cut rate guns and fighters.
8. Two Clinton's (President Clinton and his wife Hillary Clinton) we're the worst from India's point of view. President Clinton had China focus for FDI and development and Hillary Clinton, although always smiled at you but stabbed in the back during her stint as Secretary of State from 2008-12. India wished to be considered as a candidate for FDI on a massive scale but President Clinton would have none of it under one pretext or other. India continuously reminded them that you were giving too much assistance to china. The latter had killed 30,000 US service men in Korean War and were still the enemy. Instead Clinton wished India to be subservient to China. The famous words from US think tank "road for improvement of India and US relations passes thru Peking". During this period Of 1991 to 2004, China received $500 billion in FDI to build their factories and infrastructure, India received $50 billion.
10. President Bush (jr) era saw some understanding of India and FDI and FII flow was increased but not much, although Indo -US nuclear deal could spur some investment. Thanks to Hillary Clinton, all gains were sabotaged while she smiled at you. The Indo-US Nuclear deal went to the back burner on one pretext or other.
11. Nit picking by US on Indian policy in the Indian Ocean region has been used by left over Hillary Clinton friends in the State a Department to sabotage Indo-US relations. It resulted in arrest of an Indian diplomat in New York on flimsy grounds. India could arrest US diplomats on the same grounds in India but India refrained.
With all it's short comings US is the only country which could provide you a sum of $500 billion in FDI. This will be overriding conditions on all small and big issues. Just as China temporarily walked into US camp and gained massively, India has to find ways and means to reach out to US. The new government could help.
Russia can neither provide this kind of aid nor is willing. After the fall of Soviet Union they have become stingy friends. They overcharge in every arms and ammunition they supply. They massively over charged in refurbishing of India Aircfraft carrier. It is pity.
In the end; Russia is a penniless friend. It has nothing to offer. Hence the choice will still fall on US. We have to settle with them in the same way as China settled with them to make economic gains.
1. It was not about getting better money, but access to better everything. Gulf is a gilded jail for middle class, and a shit hole for labour class.a) Search for better money doesn't equate to personal political/regional preferences That would make Gulf/Saudi the bestest place in everyone's hearts.
b) USSR is dead but the help it provided when Kissinger / Nixon et.al had Marine battalions on stand-by to attack those "Indian bastards" will never ever be forgotten. Also what won't be forgotten is the go-ahead given then by Mr.Kissinger to China to attack India (which China didn't).
Please feel free to read the transcripts between Nixon and Kissinger during that event for more interesting stuff.
1971 War: How Russia sank NixonÂ’s gunboat diplomacy
Shut the hell up you goddamn madrasiI don't really know whether Indians like US over Russia or vice versa, but I am pretty sure that we Indians don't like each other.
The good thing about India is we are friends with everyoneWe like BOTH !
USA for personal education and career
Russia for govt to govt reliability
( So i have abstained from the vote. )
What one does for his/her life is their own choice regarding immigration, emigration and so on.1. It was not about getting better money, but access to better everything. Gulf is a gilded jail for middle class, and a shit hole for labour class.
2. During the time of Nixon/Kissinger, Indians were ready to give a right arm to emigrate to the West and esp US of A.
The irony is visible when a few NRI friends who kept "mannats" for US citizenship, ask me to think of India first, and vote Namo/AK.
Depends on the way questions are framed.What one does for his/her life is their own choice regarding immigration, emigration and so on.
The point of this sub-discussion if I understand correctly is why so many Indians are siding with Russia.
It is because times change but history can't. One came forward as an ally during a very vulnerable time while the other during that same time tried to inflict maximum damage both overtly and covertly.
So you can very well understand this soft corner towards Russia even if there is no USSR anymore.
This is a very important thread. It is worth while reckoning who had done what for backward India.
Russia and prior to that Soviet Union has been a steadfast friend. It was a two polar world. For some stupid reason Nehru and his leftist colleagues preferred to deal with Russia and rebuked US for Cold War, Cuban crisis and Vietnam War, leave aside countless little wars which US fought in Latin America. Then a few major wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
But other than Soviet/Russian support in UN Security Council, they had nothing to offer. India needed massive economic aid Russia had nothing to offer other than guns and a few old technology projects here and there. Hence India had to look for money and technical assistance to US.
Soviet Veto at UN kept Kashmir slipping out of India's hand. But none of these vetoes were worth anything if it came without developmental aid.
Now let us see how US dealt with India.
1. The rogue duo of John and Allen Dulles ridiculed India for everything in fifties. Pakistan was there favourite country for economic and military aid.
2. During height of El Niño in 1965/67 when India's farm output took a serious hit, US shipped 10 million tons of grain to stave off hunger.
3. During 1962 Chinese invasion John F Kennedy sided with India and told Chinese to turn back. India began to appreciate US more, but that was not to be.
4. That massive military assistance US provided to Pakistan was used by them in 1965. Luckily that highly advanced weaponry was outside the technical capability of Pakistan. Pakistan failed and India rejoiced.
5. In 1971 the greatest disservice to India was done when during height of Bangladesh War, US rushed nuclear equipped seventh fleet to Bay of Bengal to beat up India.
6. Later US after 1971, a bit dismayed with their client Pakistan, increased economic aid to India via World Bank and IMF etc. a special grouping of Aid India Club was created . It channeled huge amount of aid including farm aid to India. In ten years India was food surplus. It imported some but exported equal amount.
7. With Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan, India was alarmed. Pakistan was again a favoured nation for military assistance. This alarmed India and it turned to Soviet Union for cut rate guns and fighters.
8. Two Clinton's (President Clinton and his wife Hillary Clinton) we're the worst from India's point of view. President Clinton had China focus for FDI and development and Hillary Clinton, although always smiled at you but stabbed in the back during her stint as Secretary of State from 2008-12. India wished to be considered as a candidate for FDI on a massive scale but President Clinton would have none of it under one pretext or other. India continuously reminded them that you were giving too much assistance to china. The latter had killed 30,000 US service men in Korean War and were still the enemy. Instead Clinton wished India to be subservient to China. The famous words from US think tank "road for improvement of India and US relations passes thru Peking". During this period Of 1991 to 2004, China received $500 billion in FDI to build their factories and infrastructure, India received $50 billion.
10. President Bush (jr) era saw some understanding of India and FDI and FII flow was increased but not much, although Indo -US nuclear deal could spur some investment. Thanks to Hillary Clinton, all gains were sabotaged while she smiled at you. The Indo-US Nuclear deal went to the back burner on one pretext or other.
11. Nit picking by US on Indian policy in the Indian Ocean region has been used by left over Hillary Clinton friends in the State a Department to sabotage Indo-US relations. It resulted in arrest of an Indian diplomat in New York on flimsy grounds. India could arrest US diplomats on the same grounds in India but India refrained.
With all it's short comings US is the only country which could provide you a sum of $500 billion in FDI. This will be overriding conditions on all small and big issues. Just as China temporarily walked into US camp and gained massively, India has to find ways and means to reach out to US. The new government could help.
Russia can neither provide this kind of aid nor is willing. After the fall of Soviet Union they have become stingy friends. They overcharge in every arms and ammunition they supply. They massively over charged in refurbishing of India Aircfraft carrier. It is pity.
In the end; Russia is a penniless friend. It has nothing to offer. Hence the choice will still fall on US. We have to settle with them in the same way as China settled with them to make economic gains.
I have liked your post because you have given good points and created a good deception regarding America.
Now i would like to point out few things
You conveniently forgot the contributions made by Russia +USSR which are lot
You conveniently forgot that America is the most "cunning" of all and can't be true friends to any nation it is ony friend to its "self interest" nothing more nothing less.You think india can milk America than my friend you need to realize that "America will let you milk itself then let you make cheese out of that milk and then sold that very same cheese to you at a very high cost" what i mean to say is America would only play when in the end it is the only winner .
You have convenintly missed out what Russia can provide to us plus forget about "providing" What Russia and India could do together i believe both of us with each other support can attain more height than America.
Plus no matter what you do America would never let us or any other nation raise up to its height America always want that nations look "up" to it not look "into" its eyes even when it comes to its present so called friend they all are treated as "side kick" or "follower" not as "partner"
You mentioned America had sent us food grains my friend these type of things are done by every nation even with their enemy like india sends food grain to pak in time of its trouble south Korea sends food grain to north even when they are sworn enemies.
Now important point Russia had and is helping india in many ways unlike any other country recently i was reading an article written by an indian airforce officer in which he mentioned that how there are some trouble in indo-russian defence deals he even mentioned that the conversation which they have with russian counterparts is not so pleasant as one would expect it to be in daily basis but then he highlighted how RUSSIA is and had been india greatest Allie and how it continue to do so he even highlighted how it was not russia fault completely as it is shown in india regarding gorshkov and other deals.He then mentioned that "majority of russia help is behind the scene and the help and technology russia provide to india secretly is unmatched with any other nation providing to other nation.He also mentioned that how no one can replace "russia" including america because the things russian have provided to indians in secret no other nation would .Plus he outlined how russia want india to be its mutual partner in developing technology rather than just being seller or buyer"
My net connection is having problems else i would have provided you with facts how russia is was and will be important for us.
Now most important point
The modern india you see today has a lot of contribution from Russia our satellites,nuclear weapon,aircraft carrier nuclear submarine,ballistic missiles
and many other things would have not been possible without crucial contribution from russia which is mostly kept "secret" so we never got to know for eg in the very same article mentioned above it was mentioned that EVEN THOUGH ins arhihant is dubbed as indigenous it has major contribution from russians which is kept secret by both hence it would not have been possible without russians. I also disagree from the point that russia is milking india russia in the past at the time of USSR gone out of its way to help india in many ways details you can searh or anyone with good net speed can provide.
Now you say india should go towards america because of the dollars it has to offer i say "yes" but "never" at the cost of "russians" who had has and are our friends unless russia do something drastic anti india.Friend we are "indians" and we live in "india" we are emotional people and as a country we reflect high moral ground,character,and respect to our commitment these are few qualities which makes india "the india" and you want us to ditch a friend who has helped us supported us in our weak times and is responsible for our rise in strength just because that friend is now"poor" for you with
nothing to "offer" and you want to join hands with the new "rich" guy who look down upon you as a "wannabe" no my friend this is not the "ethics" or "quality" of india we stand by our" friend rich or poor " in "strength in weakness" these our quality which make us "INDIA" if we start ditching our friends for our "greed" then we would no more be"INDIA".
Hence i am not saying hate America co operate with them but never ever at the cost of russia .
You Bihari bhaiyas are all the same.Shut the hell up you goddamn madrasi
JUST FOR MONEY..BRO...JUST FOR MONEY....They don't really like the degenerate culture of WEst..let truth be told....JUST FOR MONEY..my man !@Cliff@sea @thinker USSR is dead, and even at its peak people would have given an arm and leg to emigrate to the West not to the Soviet block.
Even today, people are crazy to emigrate to the West and not Russia.
Degenerate culture? Lol Western culture is far better than whatever hole you crawled out fromJUST FOR MONEY..BRO...JUST FOR MONEY....They don't really like the degenerate culture of WEst..let truth be told....JUST FOR MONEY..my man !
Russia too has WESTERN culture. Infact it is no less degenerate than the west.JUST FOR MONEY..BRO...JUST FOR MONEY....They don't really like the degenerate culture of WEst..let truth be told....JUST FOR MONEY..my man !
Yes with highest murder, rape and drug consumption in West. HDI has nothing to do with culture in case you do not know.Degenerate culture? Lol Western culture is far better than whatever hole you crawled out from
It is more degenerate than West with higher crime rate, drug consumption and corruption.Russia too has WESTERN culture. Infact it is no less degenerate than the west.
Has India supported Russia on their issues with China??The BRIC Contains a Aggressor Named China would be always a threat to India .when they Inflitarted our Boundary and Erected a Tent no one give sh!ts to China ..even the o called ally Russia
Why do you jump into conclusions???don't you protest our Ex President Dr.APJ disrespected in the US..but why for the Devyani only
Our army was a fledgeling then.And another reason would be the "Nehruvian" blunder.You're smart enough to get the drift of it.Sajeev Jino said:Then why we Failed in the Chinese War
Or that we have a part of theirs and I am not against it.SajeevJino said:why some of our Boundaries still under by the Pakistanis and Chinese
Ohh so you believe Israel saved India from the hammer??Sajeev Jino said:Regarding nuke Research Mr.APJ Reversed UK owned Nuke reactor to study bout Fission devices
Israel urged to US to slow down against US sanction
LOL, both of them sold India to China for Chinese support of Cuba Criss. You can call it "backstabbing".Where was USSR when Hans attacked us and we were running for cover?