Tank Guns and Ammunition

[Kunal Biswas]

^^ 3bm32 apfsds

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some Old Pics on Chinease / Pakisthani AP rounds ..

 

[volna]

Iranian APFSDS,,,, hmm

looks like BM-17 clone
]

It's 3BM-42 for me.

 

[militarysta]

I don't think that this is correct. By scale the HEAT round would be 90-93 cm long, while the actual Soviet HEAT ammunition - which has the same relations (regarding length) between standoff charge and warhead and also between warhead and fin section - has a total length of ~67 cm. IMO the whole image has been rescaled wrongly, the height was enlarged while the width was kept. If we assume that the HEAT round has the same size as a normal 125 mm HEAT round, then the upper APFSDS and the lower one are (nearly) the same.

IMHO it's possoble that those picture is photoshoped or just bad rescale during making those brochure - IMO it's just poor making brochure then reality. Known 125mm chineese APFSDS show us max lenght projectile 630-650mm whit max lenght rod 560-580mm and whole penetrator lenght under 600mm -so it's between 3BM42 mango and Sniviets-1. In that case perforamnce of that round will be circa 600mm RHA at 2000m.
Those "~800mm long projectile" from that Brochure seems to by still unrealistic and propably you have right -just bad picture from brochure.
But from the other hand - indeed Type-99 and Al Chalid can carry modernisated AZ autoloader whit longer casette. In theory the longes avaible lenght is circa 850mm for projectile, and without changed hull sides - circa 750mm lenght. So even if (what is almoust sure) those brochure photo is bad then it can be smth. about what we don't know yet -I mean indeed longer APFSDS for Chineese and Pak. tanks. But we have still not confirm about that, and the longest APFSDS avaible on photo have (as I said)
projectile lenght: 630-650mm
penetrator lenght: ~600mm (Balistic cap + rod + fins)
rod lenght: ~560-580mm
So rather close to the 600mm RHA at 2000m and 650mm RHA under 1000m.

 

[Dazzler]

It's 3BM-42 for me.

yep, it 3BM-42 alright, thanks for correction

 

[Dazzler]

i suspect we have this with T-80uds too...

 

[Dazzler]

its not a photoshop, genuine round. also exported to Bangladesh with their 44 MBT 2000 deal.

 

[militarysta]

its not a photoshop, genuine round. also exported to Bangladesh with their 44 MBT 2000 deal.

Propably methos have right. Those more then 800mm is almoust impossible to achive in 3,5m width hull for AZ autoloader - even after modernization:

 

[Akim]

New ATGM's for guns 90 and 100-mm.

 

[volna]

i suspect we have this with T-80uds too...

I hope the BM Oplot can use such round.

 

[methos]

its not a photoshop, genuine round. also exported to Bangladesh with their 44 MBT 2000 deal.

The image has been rescaled falsely. The width was kept while the height was increased. Just look at the HEAT round - it has folding fins; if you count twice the fin height to the diameter of the rod connecting the fins and tracer to the warhead, you'll end up with a value larger than the diameter of the warhead/round. Thus the HEAT round would not fit into the barrel of a 125 mm gun...

 

[W.G.Ewald]

^^
Would storage and loading of such a round be a problem for crew?

 

[militarysta]

^^
Would storage and loading of such a round be a problem for crew?

First of all - fit that long projectile is impossible in serial AZ and 6ETs autoloader casettes -in both cases max projectile lenght is close to circa 640-650mm lenght.
In modernizated AZ autoloader casettes those lenght is equal to 740-750mm lenght - for example in Ob.188A2 known as T-90A. IMHO new "longer" autoloader casette in Type-99 and Al Chalid have the same lenght - so circa 750mm becouse the simplest for China way was just copied russian solution.

In western rounds 120mm we have almoust 1m long projectile (round) and loading of sucht big round is not a big problem. In fact polish Leopard-2A4 crew and human loader achive more rounds per minute then polish PT-91/T-72 whit AZ autoloader. During Leopard-2A4 crew finnals time to pass the exam for loader is first 4 rounds in 20s.(!) and more then 8-9 per minute. I saw vide whit 6 Leo-2A4 shoot in 36s. So it's possible. For the other side - human loader and how good and quick it is is depend on:
a) physical strength of some men so body build
b) strength stamina (fatigue, the strength of the body)
In fact most guys work as loader in Polish 10TkBde are taken from villages -healthy, strong as a horse countrysides guys and those guys are vell-build and just strong. And as I said well build human loader can achive better rounds per minute then autoloader AZ and 6ETs. But loader is not job for women or guys whit typical asian body build - loader must be just strongmen. For other side - they are realy strong causes to remove human loader by autoloader -and those factors are really importnat in today Pakistani vs India conflikt:
a) on ABC battelfield (atomic, biological, chemical) after nukes in tank first person redy to hospital / replaced is human loader - during radiation those hard-working guy is very susceptible to radiation and radiation sickness. Of course in tank we have some special layers to protect crew but it can be not enought. In T-xx tanks we haven't loader but just a machine - so we havent sucht problem. What is even more importnat - since T-72B (Ob.184) in Soviet tanks we have sevrals anti-radiation protection called "Podboj" and "Nadboj" developed against neutron nuke weapons.
b) during long fight, small numbers of sleep hours on in very hard terrain human loader is slighty slower then ussaly. When human loader is good prepered strong guy then it can't be so problematic, but if not...then autoloader is faster -and it can't be overworked
For the other sides - AZ autoloader can (and in fact do many times) jam at work - so sudently during battle we have big problem. Human loader haven't sucht problem and this is additional men to help.
More or less - bigger caliber (140mm) requires autoloader -so in all IV gen. MBT concpet we have autoloader and 3 person crews.

 

[Akim]

@militarysta;
You can question? What is 6ET?

 

[Damian]

@militarysta;
You can question? What is 6ET?

6ETs series of autoloaders are also known as MZ or Механизм заряжания as they are popularly called. Used only in T-64, T-80 and T-84 series of tanks.

In Russian autoloader is designated as 6ЭЦ10 which should translate in to 6ETs10.

 

[Akim]

6ETs series of autoloaders are also known as MZ or Механизм заряжания as they are popularly called. Used only in T-64, T-80 and T-84 series of tanks.

In Russian autoloader is designated as 6ЭЦ10 which should translate in to 6ETs10.

Understand.. Entangled in transcription Amendment. 6ETS-10, 10M, 15 had T-64A. 6ETS-40 and 40-2C in the T-64B, the T-6ETS43 in T-80U, 6ETS43-2C in the BM Bulat. I could a little error - writing from memory. All the tanks with the ML , starting with a series "B" can be recharged ATGM "Cobra" long-975 mm and 34 kg of high explosive rounds. There hydraulics and he is not fundamentally important weight. So earlier figures data is not correct and, with a little alteration of this mechanism can be used for the 140-mm ammunition.

 

[militarysta]

Understand.. Entangled in transcription Amendment. 6ETS-10, 10M, 15 had T-64A. 6ETS-40 and 40-2C in the T-64B, the T-6ETS43 in T-80U, 6ETS43-2C in the BM Bulat. I could a little error - writing from memory. All the tanks with the ML , starting with a series "B" can be recharged ATGM "Cobra" long-975 mm and 34 kg of high explosive rounds. There hydraulics and he is not fundamentally important weight. So earlier figures data is not correct and, with a little alteration of this mechanism can be used for the 140-mm ammunition.

Akim, are You sure that is possible to put in ML casette 975mm long projectile? It's not manually loaded?

 

[methos]

The Cobra missile is "folded" and takes up the place of projectile assembly and also the auxillary propellant charge.

 

[Akim]

I'm probably not exactly said. The very missile has a length of 975 mm+start/charge=1050 mm. Missile consists of three main parts, where the first long 730 mm. For tanks T-64 and T-80 with T-6ETS40(43) in 1991 adopted the projectile 3BМ44М, where the active part of the = 730 mm, and the core of about 580 mm. I don't know applied it in Russia, in Ukraine, it is definitely not have. Ukraine, in the middle of 90-s has developed its version of 3BМ44U. There are also rounds 3BМ44U1 with long core 700-720 mm for ML 6ETS43-2S ( no accurate data , I haven't seen them).
Manufacturer of 140 mm gun asserts that her can established in the turret of tanks T-80UD and BM Oplot. At the T-64BV and BM Bulat it can't be established because of chassis..
P.S. In the top post, I was wrong. In Russian / Ukrainian letter "C" read as the letter "S".

 

[militarysta]

Missile consists of three main parts, where the first long 730 mm. For tanks T-64 and T-80 with T-6ETS40(43) in 1991 adopted the projectile 3BМ44М, where the active part of the = 730 mm, and the core of about 580 mm. I don't know applied it in Russia, in Ukraine, it is definitely not have. Ukraine, in the middle of 90-s has developed its version of 3BМ44U. There are also rounds 3BМ44U1 with long core 700-720 mm for ML 6ETS43-2S ( no accurate data , I haven't seen them).

Thanks!
I was aksing becouse that what I known is max lenght limit circa 750mm for 6ETS -like for modernizated AZ Korzina-A autoloader,. so I was suprised.