Tank Guns and Ammunition

[Dazzler]

this discussion was way too old, much progress has been made since then.


Chinese export APFSDS - Tanknet

 

[Damian]

There were other threads about Chinese AFV's, their weapons and ammunition, and really, Chinese did not achieved nothing impressive.

I keep my statement valid, if Pakistan wishes better AFV's design, they should keep close relationships with Ukraine and scrap all deals with PRC.

 

[militarysta]

Slighty longer then 3BM42, but not overcome posibilities (max lenght) of typical T-72 autoloader.

 

[Dazzler]

Slighty longer then 3BM42, but not overcome posibilities (max lenght) of typical T-72 autoloader.

Ukraine modified AZ autoloader in case of Pakistan, since Type-IIM is used in China and Pak, i believe Chinese have also modified theirs.

 

[militarysta]

Dazzler - You have right, there is indeed posibility to fit longer AZ series autoloader in Type-99 and Al Chalid hull if:
a) hull sides have max 40mm thickness on autoloader hight
b) they are longer casettes put in to autoloader.
Rest is fully possible:

 

[Dazzler]

 

[Dazzler]

Dazzler - You have right, there is indeed posibility to fit longer AZ series autoloader in Type-99 and Al Chalid hull if:
a) hull sides have max 40mm thickness on autoloader hight
b) they are longer casettes put in to autoloader.
Rest is fully possible:

how much armour can this round penetrate?

 

[militarysta]

@UP

Well and it's really dificullt to estimatous - penetartion level is depend not only on projectile and rod lenght, in fact we have those basic (becouse they are more) factors:
a) gun lenght
b) max MPa value, propelan charge, etc
c) muzzle vel.
d) MJ for projectile (sabot + penetrator), how bulid is sabot (alloy or composite)
e) MJ for penetrator during fly
f) MJ transfer by rod to the target
g) if those rod is made by DU or WHA (tungsten alloy)
h) how build is rod tip, diameter of penetrator and rod
i) how build is penetrator (monoblock or segemnted)
j) what type is target - casst steel monoblock, stack RHA plate (what HB scale?), if target have ERA, if target is multialyerd structure etc.
etc.
In fact we can estimatous those penetrator per analogy to the other simmilar in lenght penetrator IMHO circa about 650mm RHA (+/- 30mm) at 2000m

BTW: for that round rod lenght will be between 680 and 730mm max. Given 730mm value is the biggest possible to put in this penetrator, propably 680mm is the lowest, so smth between.

 

[Dazzler]

@UP

Well and it's really dificullt to estimatous - penetartion level is depend not only on projectile and rod lenght, in fact we have those basic (becouse they are more) factors:
a) gun lenght
b) max MPa value, propelan charge, etc
c) muzzle vel.
d) MJ for projectile (sabot + penetrator), how bulid is sabot (alloy or composite)
e) MJ for penetrator during fly
f) MJ transfer by rod to the target
g) if those rod is made by DU or WHA (tungsten alloy)
h) how build is rod tip, diameter of penetrator and rod
i) how build is penetrator (monoblock or segemnted)
j) what type is target - casst steel monoblock, stack RHA plate (what HB scale?), if target have ERA, if target is multialyerd structure etc.
etc.
In fact we can estimatous those penetrator per analogy to the other simmilar in lenght penetrator IMHO circa about 650mm RHA (+/- 30mm) at 2000m

BTW: for that round rod lenght will be between 680 and 730mm max. Given 730mm value is the biggest possible to put in this penetrator, propably 680mm is the lowest, so smth between.

So if it can penetrate RHA between (supposedly), which tanks fall in that category? Arjun? T-90 i know can be handled easily, in case of ERA, maybe?

 

[Dazzler]

 

[Damian]

So if it can penetrate RHA between (supposedly), which tanks fall in that category? Arjun? T-90 i know can be handled easily, in case of ERA, maybe?

Non modern western, Israeli and Russian/Ukrainian tanks that have frontal protection above 600-650mm (mostly estimated as around or above 800mm) RHAe vs KE. Arjun here is a big unknown, Indians claim that they tested Arjun point blank against APFSDS ammunition, but they do not say what types of ammunition they used. Arjun use currently APFSDS with claimed penetration abilities of "incredible" 300mm RHA, so the most capable would be Russian and Israeli ammunition for T-90S and T-72M1, that have capabilities to penetrato up to 500-600mm of RHA at 2,000m, so if Arjun withstanded them at point blank range, it should be capable to withstand also that new Chinese round at typical combat range, same for T-90S used by Indian Army.

In fact Chinese tanks here are in unfavorable position, due to their weak side hull and turret protection, so their 60 degrees frontal arc provides a lot of weak zones that can be exploited with proper tactics. Al Khalid having hull and turret designed by Chinese (derived from Chinese Type-90-IIM) inherits these weakness, as I said, stick to the Ukrainians, they know better how to design tanks than Chinese.

 

[militarysta]

So if it can penetrate RHA between (supposedly), which tanks fall in that category? Arjun? T-90 i know can be handled easily, in case of ERA, maybe?

Another difficult question. We can assume if those round have circa 650mm RHA at 2000m then under 1000m it will have circa 700mm RHA -it's quite big value I will say. What I know about tank whit simmilar protection level?
1) Nacked turret Leopard-2A6HEL (without NERA pannels) was able to windstand APFSDS whit >650mm RHA penetration, so whit NERA it withoud doubt survive that hit -in fact all Leopard-2 since 2A5 version. They are rummors that CR2 survibe hit by M829A2 during IraqFreedom in 2003 -if it's true - the same. M1A2 in US version (non export) - it's rather obvioust that Abrams M1A2 have good protection. Maybe newest Leclerc Seriee XXI.
From estern tanks -without any doubt Ob.478DU9-10 so Oplot-M whit double Knife(Nozh) ERA layers, and single layer Kinfe on hull, this tank is gorgeous protected -not only by ERA but whit thick armour cavity too.
Russian tanks? Well we shoud stopped here. We don't know what is build those "new" Chineese-Pak. APFSDS. If it's typical monoblock penetrator like in M829A1, DM43, M332, OLF F1, 3BM32, Cl Mk.2, Pronit, Naiza-1, etc then it will be vulnerable in confrontation whit ERA. So based on Kontakt-5 soultions will be able to "eat" circa 20-25% of this 650-700mm RHA, and Relikt will be able to "eat" 30-40% of this value. Of course if this penetrator haven't any countrmesure against ERA (like: segmented construction, or specially developed tip).
Russian T-90A (ob.188A2) in my own estimatous is without ERA for turret 840mm LOS circa 650mm RHA vs APFSDS and for 650mm turret LOS about 500mm RHA vs APFSDS. But this is without ERA. Indian T-90S have Kanchan special armour, and it's very difficult to say how good it can be. If those new chineese-pak round havent any special soultions against ERA then T-90S and new Arjun whit ERA shoud be protected (for +/- 30 degree from longitiudal axis) enought to windstand those value. Without ERA those round shoud perforated T-90S and Arjun, or if those new APFSDS have some solution to overcome ERA. But we don't known that. For the other side - Indian Army haven't any good APFSDS ammo. That what we can see in stil near 3BM42 or Israeli Cl.Mk.2. So it's definetly not enought to overcome Al Chalid protection when there is ERA on in, or IMHO even basic AK armour shoud windstand round whit circa 500-550mm RHA at 2000m.

* it very symptomatic that Indian developers put ERA on newest Arjun turret, and they are hard working on newe NERA armour for future Arjun modernisation. This new Chineese-Pakistani round can be answer why they do that.

 

[Dazzler]

Well, Ukrainians are surely masters in this art since Alexander Morozov, a Ukrainian genius. Personally, i am a big fan of Ukrainian armour technology which is surprisingly advanced, considering their financial constraints. However, Pakistan was lucky to have got hands on Ukrainian goodies for AK and the cooperation continues... From ERA to engine to Varta APS to APFSDS rounds (classified DU type) , speaking of Varta,, here is one on AK..

 

[Dazzler]

Another difficult question. We can assume if those round have circa 650mm RHA at 2000m then under 1000m it will have circa 700mm RHA -it's quite big value I will say. What I know about tank whit simmilar protection level?
1) Nacked turret Leopard-2A6HEL (without NERA pannels) was able to windstand APFSDS whit >650mm RHA penetration, so whit NERA it withoud doubt survive that hit -in fact all Leopard-2 since 2A5 version. They are rummors that CR2 survibe hit by M829A2 during IraqFreedom in 2003 -if it's true - the same. M1A2 in US version (non export) - it's rather obvioust that Abrams M1A2 have good protection. Maybe newest Leclerc Seriee XXI.
From estern tanks -without any doubt Ob.478DU9-10 so Oplot-M whit double Knife(Nozh) ERA layers, and single layer Kinfe on hull, this tank is gorgeous protected -not only by ERA but whit thick armour cavity too.
Russian tanks? Well we shoud stopped here. We don't know what is build those "new" Chineese-Pak. APFSDS. If it's typical monoblock penetrator like in M829A1, DM43, M332, OLF F1, 3BM32, Cl Mk.2, Pronit, Naiza-1, etc then it will be vulnerable in confrontation whit ERA. So based on Kontakt-5 soultions will be able to "eat" circa 20-25% of this 650-700mm RHA, and Relikt will be able to "eat" 30-40% of this value. Of course if this penetrator haven't any countrmesure against ERA (like: segmented construction, or specially developed tip).
Russian T-90A (ob.188A2) in my own estimatous is without ERA for turret 840mm LOS circa 650mm RHA vs APFSDS and for 650mm turret LOS about 500mm RHA vs APFSDS. But this is without ERA. Indian T-90S have Kanchan special armour, and it's very difficult to say how good it can be. If those new chineese-pak round havent any special soultions against ERA then T-90S and new Arjun whit ERA shoud be protected (for +/- 30 degree from longitiudal axis) enought to windstand those value. Without ERA those round shoud perforated T-90S and Arjun, or if those new APFSDS have some solution to overcome ERA. But we don't known that. For the other side - Indian Army haven't any good APFSDS ammo. That what we can see in stil near 3BM42 or Israeli Cl.Mk.2. So it's definetly not enought to overcome Al Chalid protection when there is ERA on in, or IMHO even basic AK armour shoud windstand round whit circa 500-550mm RHA at 2000m.

* it very symptomatic that Indian developers put ERA on newest Arjun turret, and they are hard working on newe NERA armour for future Arjun modernisation. This new Chineese-Pakistani round can be answer why they do that.

Very informative reply...

Thanks

 

[Damian]

Well, Ukrainians are surely masters in this art since Alexander Morozov, a Ukrainian genius. Personally, i am a big fan of Ukrainian armour technology which is surprisingly advanced, considering their financial constraints. However, Pakistan was lucky to have got hands on Ukrainian goodies for AK and the cooperation continues... From ERA to engine to Varta APS to APFSDS rounds (classified DU type) , speaking of Varta,, here is one on AK..

As for Morozov, as far as I know, he made designing tanks a family business, his son is also engineer working at Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building Design Bureau.

 

[Dazzler]

 

[methos]

Slighty longer then 3BM42, but not overcome posibilities (max lenght) of typical T-72 autoloader.

I don't think that this is correct. By scale the HEAT round would be 90-93 cm long, while the actual Soviet HEAT ammunition - which has the same relations (regarding length) between standoff charge and warhead and also between warhead and fin section - has a total length of ~67 cm. IMO the whole image has been rescaled wrongly, the height was enlarged while the width was kept. If we assume that the HEAT round has the same size as a normal 125 mm HEAT round, then the upper APFSDS and the lower one are (nearly) the same.

 

[Dazzler]

I don't think that this is correct. By scale the HEAT round would be 90-93 cm long, while the actual Soviet HEAT ammunition - which has the same relations (regarding length) between standoff charge and warhead and also between warhead and fin section - has a total length of ~67 cm. IMO the whole image has been rescaled wrongly, the height was enlarged while the width was kept. If we assume that the HEAT round has the same size as a normal 125 mm HEAT round, then the upper APFSDS and the lower one are (nearly) the same.

That long rod round is a standard AK/ Type-99 long rod penetrator also promoted for export.

measurements from other pic....

 

[Dazzler]

Bumar labedy....

 

[Dazzler]

Iranian APFSDS,,,, hmm

looks like BM-17 clone