Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Anathema]

USA's AIM120 is not better than Meteor of France. French BVR is way better than AIM120C.

Also, Astra is upgraded and indigenised R77 missile and it is good enough

Maybe the case - but that doesnt mean Astra is better than AIM120; thats all my point is

 

[Anathema]

Astra has been matured, that's why now it's in production. AIM120C5 is indeed old.

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AIM is perhaps one of the most mature and potent missiles. Extremely capable one - it needs to be seen how Astra pans out.

 

[no smoking]

HAHAHHAHAHA! In wartime, it is your legal right to seize any and all merchantmen that are trading with your adversary. We had blocked Karachi in 71. Sank a US and a British merchantman too! Wiped out Karachi harbour with missile strikes. Did anyone do anything? NO! Because it was our right. Now, things are even more skewed in India's favour.

Simple differences:
1. last time you block Karachi, this time you are proposing to block international trading routes;
2. It was reasonable to accuse every boat coming towards Karachi or out of Karachi is trading with your adversary, however, how do you know which boat is trading with China in IOR: Chinese could easily set up dummy companies in every south east asian country to continue its trade.

 

[Armand2REP]

Simple differences:
1. last time you block Karachi, this time you are proposing to block international trading routes;
2. It was reasonable to accuse every boat coming towards Karachi or out of Karachi is trading with your adversary, however, how do you know which boat is trading with China in IOR: Chinese could easily set up dummy companies in every south east asian country to continue its trade.

I think an Indian blockade of China would be more focused on oil tankers. With access to French bases they have all the major choke points covered and would bleed China dry once her strategic reserves are used up.

 

[Steven Rogers]

AIM is perhaps one of the most mature and potent missiles. Extremely capable one - it needs to be seen how Astra pans out.

AIM120D is by far the latest and 2nd best after meteor on paper. AIM120C5 is hardly a good missile in 21st century and end of first two decades.

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[Kshithij]

AIM is perhaps one of the most mature and potent missiles. Extremely capable one - it needs to be seen how Astra pans out.

AIM120C is 1995 technology. The latest AIM120D is pretty advanced. But I would not rate AIM120C as high technology. R77 is also technology of same era

 

[Flame Thrower]

India has upgraded/replaced R-77 with R-77-1, it is an upgraded and more potent version of R-77.

At the time of its Arival(R-77-1) in early 2000s, it was considered as the best operational air to air missile.

If you compare with AIM 120 C5, then R-77-1 has better chances of hitting it's targets.

Today it is a different case altogether.

 

[Anathema]

AIM120C is 1995 technology. The latest AIM120D is pretty advanced. But I would not rate AIM120C as high technology. R77 is also technology of same era

This is what i am talking about - Astra is still in proving stage unlike AIM120C whose performance parameters are exactly known and which has seen war.

"Fired for the first time from a modified Su-30 MKI in May 2014, the Astra has battled steady headwinds (unsurprisingly including delays from Russia) to turn the corner and find an unusually pleased customer in the Indian Air Force. Following a rapid-fire spate of seven guided tests last September, topped off with the two ‘combat’ tests described above, the Indian Air Force was persuaded to sign on for 50 pre-production Astra missiles, its healthiest show of confidence in a program that’s still, effectively, in its proving stage."

Its a Livefist report from 2018

 

[Steven Rogers]

This is what i am talking about - Astra is still in proving stage unlike AIM120C whose performance parameters are exactly known and which has seen war.

"Fired for the first time from a modified Su-30 MKI in May 2014, the Astra has battled steady headwinds (unsurprisingly including delays from Russia) to turn the corner and find an unusually pleased customer in the Indian Air Force. Following a rapid-fire spate of seven guided tests last September, topped off with the two ‘combat’ tests described above, the Indian Air Force was persuaded to sign on for 50 pre-production Astra missiles, its healthiest show of confidence in a program that’s still, effectively, in its proving stage."

Its a Livefist report from 2018

Astra BVR will be the backbone and is made to replace the R77 models iaf and navy have. It has high offbore capability and can be cued with HMS too. Astra has kill range of 80kms, unlike Chinese one which has ballastic range of such, Astra destroyed the decoys at 6-8km altitude at 64 and 75 kms, latest Astra test which occurred last year were performed in an EW contested area. And for the last, Indian gov have cleared the project ASTRA NG.

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[Kshithij]

This is what i am talking about - Astra is still in proving stage unlike AIM120C whose performance parameters are exactly known and which has seen war.

"Fired for the first time from a modified Su-30 MKI in May 2014, the Astra has battled steady headwinds (unsurprisingly including delays from Russia) to turn the corner and find an unusually pleased customer in the Indian Air Force. Following a rapid-fire spate of seven guided tests last September, topped off with the two ‘combat’ tests described above, the Indian Air Force was persuaded to sign on for 50 pre-production Astra missiles, its healthiest show of confidence in a program that’s still, effectively, in its proving stage."

Its a Livefist report from 2018

Obviously, a new missile will be first at proving stage regardless of how good the technology is. But, that does not make it inferior to AIM120C. Astra is most likely better than AIM120C as AIM120C sometimes fails in cold climates

 

[cobra commando]

The BrahMos-Su-30MKI simulator provides pilot-in-loop simulation. It also allows the pilot to strategize BrahMos deployment with a complete mission planning and 3D real time flying experience. The simulator was on display and demonstration at the recently concluded DefExpo 2018 at Chennai, India. The Indian Air Force (IAF) concluded the second phase of its mega war-drill, Gagan Shakti-2018 with successful target strikes by the Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighter jet fitted with BrahMos missile in the Malacca Strait on Monday. Malacca strait is the entry point Chinese military is likely to enter the Indian Ocean region. The cruise missile, launched from a Su-30MKI fighter jet will be tested against a land target in the coming 2-3 months. The missile was earlier tested against a sea target in November 2017. Once the land target test is completed, it will signal an end of the testing phase of the air-launched version. The air-launched Brahmos cruise missile is intended to take out critical infrastructure, ships and military targets on land. The missile, traveling at speeds of over Mach 5, will be difficult to intercept by current anti-missile systems in the world. The launcher, trigger mechanism and control electronics have been made by Indian firms assisting Brahmos Aerospace. India's HAL has played a part in the integration of the system.


Demonstration Of Su-30MKI Cockpit Simulator For BrahMos Weapon Deployment

 

[no smoking]

I think an Indian blockade of China would be more focused on oil tankers. With access to French bases they have all the major choke points covered and would bleed China dry once her strategic reserves are used up.

Chinese can always buy oil through their dummy companies in South Eastern Asian countries.
Even if Indian successfully identify and lock up every third party oil tank smuggling for China, it is still hardly to bleed Chinese industries:
Currently, Chinese domestic oil production counts 32% of total oil consumption, however, they have the capacity to expand to 50% in short notice. At the meantime, they can increase their purchase from Russia, South America, Canard, and ......USA. These may not make up 100% of loss caused by India block, but already more than enough to keep the Industries and war machine running. The group that will be impacted by India block is the private car owner.

 

[Armand2REP]

Chinese can always buy oil through their dummy companies in South Eastern Asian countries.
Even if Indian successfully identify and lock up every third party oil tank smuggling for China, it is still hardly to bleed Chinese industries:
Currently, Chinese domestic oil production counts 32% of total oil consumption, however, they have the capacity to expand to 50% in short notice. At the meantime, they can increase their purchase from Russia, South America, Canard, and ......USA. These may not make up 100% of loss caused by India block, but already more than enough to keep the Industries and war machine running. The group that will be impacted by India block is the private car owner.

French bases are in easy range of the Panama Canal which covers your shipments from Venezuela. Angola and Nigeria are covered by La Reunion and Mayotte at the Cape of Good Hope. Suez is covered by Djibouti, Persian Gulf is covered by the base at UAE, Pacific shipping lanes are endangered by Tahiti. The reach of France goes from one end of this Earth to the other. The only secure source you have is Russia and that is maxed out, if they are true allies of India they will cut that off. You can try to smuggle it but it would not be enough for the war machine much less the economy of China.

 

[Kshithij]

French bases are in easy range of the Panama Canal which covers your shipments from Venezuela. Angola and Nigeria are covered by La Reunion and Mayotte at the Cape of Good Hope. Suez is covered by Djibouti, Persian Gulf is covered by the base at UAE, Pacific shipping lanes are endangered by Tahiti. The reach of France goes from one end of this Earth to the other. The only secure source you have is Russia and that is maxed out, if they are true allies of India they will cut that off. You can try to smuggle it but it would not be enough for the war machine much less the economy of China.

Chinese production of oil is 4million barrel a day. That is more than enough for critical energy needs. One doesn't care for economy in war time.

Secondly, war with china is fictional as there i no proper objective to lose one's soldiers for.

Third, France will not fight Chinese by blocking seas. I don't get a reason why you would claim that.

 

[Armand2REP]

Chinese production of oil is 4million barrel a day. That is more than enough for critical energy needs. One doesn't care for economy in war time.

Secondly, war with china is fictional as there i no proper objective to lose one's soldiers for.

Third, France will not fight Chinese by blocking seas. I don't get a reason why you would claim that.

China consumes 12m bpd without a war machine that would require 4m bpd for itself. The Chinese economy would collapse overnight if they had to rely on that. It would quickly lead to civil strife and mass protests.

Secondly, war with China is a very real possibility as demonstrated by Doklam.

Third, France does not have to fight Chinese, it is the Indian Navy who has basing rights at French ports.

 

[Kshithij]

China consumes 12m bpd without a war machine that would require 4m bpd for itself. The Chinese economy would collapse overnight if they had to rely on that. It would quickly lead to civil strife and mass protests.

Secondly, war with China is a very real possibility as demonstrated by Doklam.

Third, France does not have to fight Chinese, it is the Indian Navy who has basing rights at French ports.

Your idea that people will riot and strike is absurd. If people are so cheap that they want only short sighted pleasures, then you already are in trouble. It is not that just 30 years back when China consumed 3mbpd oil, people rioted around. India still consumes 3.4mbpd (imports 4.7MBPD but exports refined products of 1.2 MBPD) and India has as large a population as China. Do you see Indians having civil strife?

Civil strife is for chaotic and arbitrary societies. Economy is just temporary. If people have lived tough life in the past, people can live tough life in the future. North Korea is a great example of how people gave full support to the government despite juche policy and international sanctions. Since North Korea was a small country with limited technology and resources, USA threatened North Korea with sanctions if it does not toe the line. But, North Korea did not budge and went into self-reliance mode.

So,5 China can easily survive with oil sanctions.

 

[Armand2REP]

Your idea that people will riot and strike is absurd. If people are so cheap that they want only short sighted pleasures, then you already are in trouble. It is not that just 30 years back when China consumed 3mbpd oil, people rioted around. India still consumes 3.4mbpd (imports 4.7MBPD but exports refined products of 1.2 MBPD) and India has as large a population as China. Do you see Indians having civil strife?

Civil strife is for chaotic and arbitrary societies. Economy is just temporary. If people have lived tough life in the past, people can live tough life in the future. North Korea is a great example of how people gave full support to the government despite juche policy and international sanctions. Since North Korea was a small country with limited technology and resources, USA threatened North Korea with sanctions if it does not toe the line. But, North Korea did not budge and went into self-reliance mode.

So,5 China can easily survive with oil sanctions.

You are confusing Maoist China with modern China. The people's tolerance is not so high. The current generation has never had to sacrifice anything and the middle class has grown up as Little Emperors. They have nearly 1000 protests and mass demonstrations per day. If you make them suffer you will have that many riots per day. With the age of the internet the days of suffering in silence are gone.

 

[Kshithij]

You are confusing Maoist China with modern China. The people's tolerance is not so high. The current generation has never had to sacrifice anything and the middle class has grown up as Little Emperors. They have nearly 1000 protests and mass demonstrations per day. If you make them suffer you will have that many riots per day. With the age of the internet the days of suffering in silence are gone.

You are being paradoxical. Wars always involve sacrifice. If Chinese are willing to sacrifice their lives, lose their homes and flee from place to place in war, they will automatically be ready to sacrifice the economy.

When bullets start whizzing past your ears, you will lose all respect for economy

 

[patriots]

..............su upgrade ...................

.........................

 

[Armand2REP]

You are being paradoxical. Wars always involve sacrifice. If Chinese are willing to sacrifice their lives, lose their homes and flee from place to place in war, they will automatically be ready to sacrifice the economy.

When bullets start whizzing past your ears, you will lose all respect for economy

The economy is what provides them a paycheck, the means to live. China is already on the edge of social unrest and the only thing keeping them from being overthrown is the promise of jobs and a better life. If they can't provide that they lose the Mandate of Heaven.