Sukhoi PAK FA

[gadeshi]

who died and made it the king???
su 35 is nothing but few iterative improvements and doesnt hold anything over MKI except the uprated al 41 engine besides its what's inside that matters
avionics and EW its what its all about russian flankers are beautiful no doubt sure but they are decades behind western tech in terms of electronics
here is the footage of F-35 EOTS and DAS picking a missile 800 miles away while the pathetic OLS on SU-30 family has effective range of about 50-60 KM do you the difference in the level of tech here???
even china has surpassed russia in terms of electronics russian design are still relying on old fabricated chips and use old architecture with very high TDP and low level miniaturization .

Each and every word is stupid and idiocy in one package.
Read about 101-KS to know the subject you want to discuss.
The same is for radars - who has completely digital (without DAP/ADP modulation) GaN-based AESA radars except for NIIP? Nobody. Even US.
As for the frenchies... What G5 tech do they have? If it was true Rafale would be your AMCA, but it doesn't.

As I've said earlier: go to school to learn physics and math first, then read serious materials (books most of all) to get ready to discuss serious subjects.
We are not very interested in discussing LM advertisement booklets here (and F-35 thread almost dead because of that).

 

[Bahamut]

IF INDIAN NAVY IS READY TO MODIFY ENTIRE AIRCRAFT CARRIER JUST TO OPERATE RAFALE THEN YOU CAN UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH MIG 29K SUCKS AND THERE IS A VERY HUGE GAP IN ITS CAPABILITY WORD IS ONLY 2-3 JETS ARE EVER OPERATIONAL IN ENTIRE NAVAL WING.

Navy was given briefing on it, they are yet to release a tender for STOBAR capable jet. The Navy also got briefing on F 35 and E 2D,it does not mean they buy it.

 

[gadeshi]

We have about 45 mig 29in navy and the 100engine between them.100/45, I am sure it is not six.
There is a shortage of spares and it is acknowledged by navy and by air force that why deals are signed to reduce the time period.

Russian planes avaliability is not planes design or quality measure, as far as Russian and even Kazakhstan AF keep avaliability near 75% on the same planes on constant basis.
Mny guys from this forum accuse IAF command in incompetency and corruption, so maybe you should throw off the useless generals and promote professional colonels on their places like Russians did in 2010-2013?

 

[BON PLAN]

bon plan man i think your on wrong thread here we were discussing the PAK-FA here islam bashing thread is ----------------->>>>>>> that way

Peace and love Bro.

 

[OnePunchMan]

I did some research and found out that when flying over sea the salts corrodes the engine and aircraft structure faster and there is a loss. A carrier can carry limited about of spares, so one must have the delivered by ship or by cargo plane. But for short interval serviceability can increase to close 90 and then it falls down. The 25% is average. Eg. The serviceability of Rafale is 49 but during Libyan conflict the increase it to close to 90%,the Su 30 survivability was close 100% in last red flag.

yes engine wear out fast in sea environment and especially in hot indian ocean climate but russian rd-33mk is a joke absolute joke apart from normal erosion one out of 3 flight is resulting in engine failure that is some serious shit right there and E-2 hawkeye will join with INS vishal ie catboar and rafale will be operated along with it india will never buy and should not buy boondoggle F35 unless americans force it on us like russians did with mig 29k they will need something in return for the help in building a catobar carrier and for EMALS though a E-2 purchase should satisfy them.


also that missile capture 800 miles away is purely on the DAS no other system was involved in it man no awac no satellite just the standard DAS in the jet make fun of the mismanagement of F35 all you want but tech inside is truly cutting edge and almost alien compared to other nation its only the mismanagement and combing the needs of so many services into one service has made the airframe bulky and slow but Electronics and its sensors are world beating. our SU30 MKI will be sitting ducks against a F35 they will absolutely slaughter nay russian jet including pakfa everyday of the week and twice on sunday.

 

[gadeshi]

yes engine wear out fast in sea environment and especially in hot indian ocean climate but russian rd-33mk is a joke absolute joke apart from normal erosion one out of 3 flight is resulting in engine failure that is some serious shit right there and E-2 hawkeye will join with INS vishal ie catboar and rafale will be operated along with it india will never buy and should not buy boondoggle F35 unless americans force it on us like russians did with mig 29k they will need something in return for the help in building a catobar carrier and for EMALS though a E-2 purchase should satisfy them.
also that missile capture 800 miles away is purely on the DAS no other system was involved in it man no awac no satellite just the standard DAS in the jet make fun of the mismanagement of F35 all you want but tech inside is truly cutting edge and almost alien compared to other nation its only the mismanagement and combing the needs of so many services into one service has made the airframe bulky and slow but Electronics and its sensors are world beating. our SU30 MKI will be sitting ducks against a F35 they will absolutely slaughter nay russian jet including pakfa everyday of the week and twice on sunday.

You are the brilliant example of poorly educated man who easily believe primitive advertisement from LM
I will tell you a secret: you can detect ballistic or space rocket engine torch on 800 miles even with some good consumer video cham with IR channel
The rest "statements" are the same.

 

[OnePunchMan]

You are the brilliant example of poorly educated man who easily believe primitive advertisement from LM
I will tell you a secret: you can detect ballistic or space rocket engine torch on 800 miles even with some good consumer video cham with IR channel
The rest "statements" are the same.

you are the brilliant example of educated man with stubbornness. i know the level of tech the russian have and the americans have i have worked with lot of americans and studied in US itself to know the scope and level of their tech Russia does not have anything close to them period........

and no OLS on the flankers does'nt have this kind of capability they at best in cold weather reach a range of 50 km in hot indian conditions their range is even less the radar on the MKI is good though but no AESA and OLS is beaten hands down by DAS and EOTS if the F-35 werent so expensive and came with so many strings attached it would have been a great option but the tech in it is just a different level altogether.

 

[StealthFlanker]

here is the footage of F-35 EOTS and DAS picking a missile 800 miles away while the pathetic OLS on SU-30 family has effective range of about 50-60 KM do you the difference in the level of tech here???.

I generally like the F-35 but your comparison very bad ,the range of DAS in that video is against ballistic missiles , the range of OLS that you quote is against fighter. Very different in term of IR signature and background temperature. It like saying : i got better eye than you because i can see a building from 5 km aways while you cannot see a car from that distance. No doubt that DAS field of view and automatic tracking are impressive, range is not its strong point

The 800km range is done by inputs from satellite, on its own DAS and EOTS have similar ranges.

There was no satellite input as far as i know

The same is for radars - who has completely digital (without DAP/ADP modulation) GaN-based AESA radars except for NIIP? Nobody. Even US

If i remember correctly , Russia only have one fighter AESA radar in services ( Zhuk-AE ) while US has like a dozen of them ( APG-63v2 , APG-82 , APG-77 , APG-79 , APG-80 , APG-81 ) . So personally i don't see how Russian would be superior in this aspect

 

[Krusty]

WELL SAID. It's the main threat of the near future. We all have to ban radical islam and all their supports.

Radical Islam is just a myth. There is just Islam. Even the most educated Muslims in any society will support ISIS fighting for Allahs cause and sharia in the country they live, even though they don't actively strap a bomb around their waist and blow up civilians. Islam had infiltrated too deep in almost every country.

Edit: apologies to everyone for the off topic post.

 

[gadeshi]

I generally like the F-35 but your comparison very bad ,the range of DAS in that video is against ballistic missiles , the range of OLS that you quote is against fighter. Very different in term of IR signature and background temperature. It like saying : i got better eye than you because i can see a building from 5 km aways while you cannot see a car from that distance. No doubt that DAS field of view and automatic tracking are impressive, range is not its strong point

There was no satellite input as far as i know


If i remember correctly , Russia only have one fighter AESA radar in services ( Zhuk-AE ) while US has like a dozen of them ( APG-63v2 , APG-82 , APG-77 , APG-79 , APG-80 , APG-81 ) . So personally i don't see how Russian would be superior in this aspect

So look at Russian PESA radar technical data (which is far superior to American AESAs) before making any conclusions
All American AESA radars still have huge problems with their combat readiness and reliability (SH story is very indicatory here).
So we should look on technical data rather than anything else.

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[sjmaverick]

1 - Indians are not able to finish out even 20-30 times more simple light fighter like LCA Tejas.
Like it or not, that is your competential and technical level for now.
And there are no signs that you can or ever been able to do anything viable and on-level youself.
2 - Nobody except Russians and Americans has G5 technologies even close.
3 - Nobody except Russians wil share these technologies with you even for the huge money.

That's the situation as it is. Now you can think about it (if you can to, which is very doughtful though).

@gadeshi i have always appreciated the information you bring on the table but sorry bro you may not be 100% correct here statement the looks to be colored with patriotism for Russia which should be there i respect that as well. Russian has been willing to share technologies not to India alone whatever may be the compulsion to do so is not my business but i guess they recognize India might be the only country out of many that has always been peaceful in its ambitions and does have excellent records of non-violation of IPR....i wish i could have changed that a bit as most of so called tech-superior nations got there inspiration by committing violations during WW1 and WW2. As regarding LCA i doubt it would be called simpler 20-30 times than most aircraft's except 5th Gen of course just imagine to integrate an american engine , with Indian design, Israeli and India avionics, French and Russian arms/missiles is no small feat without a leader like Putin at the top...we have Modi now and see the development in India in just last 2 years. But we are riding our learning curve and are way behind against Russia / USA and France is also a fact.
As Indian hope India does well in coming decade so that someone can reject your assertions on India in futrure with Pride...

 

[bhramos]

old prototype... but in snow...

 

[Chinmoy]

except we dont have a bird in hand because bird is not even ready get it???? atleast not until 2022.


and if you support indigenization then choosing AMCA is better than FGFA also i know the indian variant will be FGFA but its not even on the drawing board yet because PAK-FA is half baked prototype do you know SU MKI is far superior to anything russia has because of indian mission computer and yet we dont get any royalty no IP over it if we will be designing and manufacturing the entire avionics and EW suite of FGFA then why do we need to pay heavy royalties to russia to do that why not just focus on indigenous programme.

also read my other posts about engine tech also engine tech transfer is part of the offset of the rafale deal thats the whole reason deal was stuck for so long and as you can see there is far more requirement for rafale

quoting parikrama again



Hearing from different circles..
Rafale exciting news will be out soon..

Both for Make In India and a bigger surprise of Rafale M order from Merignac. And it's quite a big size number !!!

India has chosen the upgraded engine Rafale which is going to meet multiple requirements including deck ops at 14 degree ski jump.

The upgraded engine will curtail the limitation of MTOW which is present in M88-4E for marine version operating from STOBAR carriers. The other competitor to this SH but it's not considered by IN owing to even less compatibility for STOBAR ops.

Oh btw IAF need is now 400jets and IN need for deck ops is 80 and shore based is another 60+. And single engine requirement is again going super slow..

And most importantly the IAF and IN fighter must also be MII fighter and a substantial benefit in TOT in terms of manufacturing and repair & overhaul ecosystem.

Since navy won't chose single engine as of now, the chances dimmed for the other so called single engine need of IAF based MII.

Enjoy the Christmas and happy new year in advance.. good work is done behind by DA, France and India.


understand now whats going on???
we are not getting these jets for free from russia like china gives to packies we pay arm and leg and thus need to get the best finished products no half baked shoddy russian crap which cant ever achieve full potential and is hugely expensive to maintain with no proper support and low quality in general.

IF INDIAN NAVY IS READY TO MODIFY ENTIRE AIRCRAFT CARRIER JUST TO OPERATE RAFALE THEN YOU CAN UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH MIG 29K SUCKS AND THERE IS A VERY HUGE GAP IN ITS CAPABILITY WORD IS ONLY 2-3 JETS ARE EVER OPERATIONAL IN ENTIRE NAVAL WING.

On your first line, atleast Russians have something flying, French have yet to come out with a plan as of now.

No one is saying that we shouldn't support AMCA. But have even looked at the proposed model of the airframe? It has been changed a couple of times and yet I am not sure it has been freezed. Why? The main prob with our Aeronautics industry is structural engineering. Any aircraft could be roughly divided into three parts.
1- Airframe
2- Engine
3- Avionics
Now we are lagging behind in the first two points by decades. We did started eons of years after others have near perfected the techs. The very same reason is why we are collaborating with France for Engine and our main priority with PAK-FA should be in structural engineering. Try to pick up the nit and picks of various aspects of structural engineering in its development process.
Even Avionics, which is our strong point, is not 100% indigenous. It is some where in between 60% to 70%. But there too we are collaborating with Israelis, France, Brits and others to improve. JV with any one is not a solution. Its just a band aid. At long run you have to be self sufficient and the only way to do is to invest in it. Now you could either invest in PAK-FA and try to take the best out of it, or try your hand in AMCA with the lesson learned from Tejas. But again Tejas and AMCA are two totally different birds and would have minimum similarity. So IMO its better to learn from PAK-FA instead of waiting for France or anyone else to come out with a design.

 

[BON PLAN]

So look at Russian PESA radar technical data (which is far superior to American AESAs) before making any conclusions
All American AESA radars still have huge problems with their combat readiness and reliability (SH story is very indicatory here).
So we should look on technical data rather than anything else.

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First time I read or heard something about the US AESA radars reliability.
All the customers (USAF, USN, Singapore, Australia...) seems VERY happy with perf and reliability.

The only "interest" in PESA vs AESA in the russian vs US case is the huge diameter of russian nose cone. If not, PESA is a old tech now....

 

[airtel]

Any aircraft could be roughly divided into three parts.
1- Airframe
2- Engine
3- Avionics
Now we are lagging behind in the first two points by decades.

according to me , we are Lacking in all 3 points ...........................

 

[gadeshi]

First time I read or heard something about the US AESA radars reliability.
All the customers (USAF, USN, Singapore, Australia...) seems VERY happy with perf and reliability.
The only "interest" in PESA vs AESA in the russian vs US case is the huge diameter of russian nose cone. If not, PESA is a old tech now....

And how many years ago American AESAs became reliable and got rid of battle modes restrictions in them?
As for nose cones... Look at F-15SE with the same size cone Its AN/APG-63 (v3) AESA has very modest abilities being compared to even export N035E Irbis-E and match to much older N-011M Bars one.
And of course, Russians had no financial abilities to field EASA-powered fighters but AESA radars polishing was never stopped even in harsh 90-th. That's why all the modern SAM and shipborn radars fielding last 3 years are AESA-powered.

 

[gadeshi]

according to me , we are Lacking in all 3 points ...........................

What avionics can you talk about if Indian electronics industry still has no indigenous GaAs heterostructures based UHF solid-state chips production?
What about superscalar processors (like Russian Elbrus and Baget) which can process more than 2 operations per tact for each kernel? Elbrus can 24 to 32 which takes off the need to rise frequency (and thus heat package and power consumption) to gain computing productivity.
Where's Indian indigenous IR (not talking about bispectral IR/UV ones) imaging sensors with resolution match or over than 800x600 pixels?

 

[BON PLAN]

As for nose cones... Look at F-15SE with the same size cone Its AN/APG-63 (v3) AESA has very modest abilities being compared to even export N035E Irbis-E and match to much older N-011M Bars one.

Explain the supposed reduced abilities of the AESA F15 radar with the russian conterparts ?

 

[Chinmoy]

according to me , we are Lacking in all 3 points ...........................

I do agree, but still its one of our strong point among these three when software is concerned.

 

[gadeshi]

I do agree, but still its one of our strong point among these three when software is concerned.

Mostly true, but ...
No offence, but Russians call inprofessional, irresponsible, slow and stupid software developers "Induses" and low quality code is called "Indus Code".
I have met tose issues too many times in my work.
However, my respect to very professional CDN Software (if anyone of you guys are here, then cheers! ).
Indian engineers have a large fields to grow on and of course this growth is easier in different JVs.