Small arms of India

[Kunal Biswas]

Army use fiber based furniture SVDs since many years now, But they put requirement for wooden furniture Sniper Rilfe to OFB during 2014.

quality of Polymer is also getting better due to research & development .......................All the Modern Riffles around the Use Polymers .................

this is Old Dragunov >

this is Modern version of dragunovView attachment 12296

 

[airtel]

@AbRaj ...

Have you noticed how Galil failed in IA test which have been done across a varied climatic and environmental condition whereas its one of the most sought after gun.

older Galil ................

New OFB Excalibur , with Polymer >>

 

[abingdonboy]

May be another thing which our armed forces would not like is its overall polymer furniture. Our armed forces have well known affinity towards rugged wooden as well as stamped metal furniture .

@Kunal Biswas could perhaps share some insight on love towards old world charm here :biggrin2:

Bro stop making excuses for the backwards mentality in place within the IA. The rest of the world is moving ahead and embracing change and they are clinging on to 1800s era beleifs? Polymors are just as rugged today as any wooden furniture and do not come with the same weight penalty.

When every other army in the world is able to understand this there is NO justifiable reason the IA cannot, there is nothing unique in what the IA does, there is nothing that they know that others don't, they are simply not foreward thinking and too rooted in "tradition" and it is killing them (literally).

 

[abingdonboy]

Regarding not having SCAR type butt-stock : In close hand to hand combat a rifle butt and bayonet comes handly, With bayonet i can rip his body and with butt of the rifle i can pop his brains out, Now i cannot do that with a fiber made 'fn scar like butt stock with cheek adjust',

Are you telling me that this is such a neccesity that the IA's rifle can never feature such innovative buttstocks that would be more useful 99% of the time? Are you telling me all of those top tier SFs around the world that use rifles with such fibre butt stocks don't know better than the IA? That SFs aren't directly likely to be engaged in hand to hand combat? The fact that they still opt for FN SCARs and the like which ALL have fiber butt stocks should tell you just how outdated this logic is.

Heck, even the IA's own SF uses the Tavor and M4 as their main rifles which both have fiber buttstocks (the tavor being bullpup btw would never be used in such a way as described above).

 

[abingdonboy]

Indian way to hide their incompetency,plus we Indians are generally averse to everything new.
30char...............................................

Spot on, too many are quick to justify the "chalta hai" mentality of the IA in particular and go to all sorts of extremes to try and explain why the IA continues with a whole host of backwards practices and uses such outdated tech/tactics when the easiest solution really is that they are incompetent, soft and regressive. Literally, some try to make out that every other force that we see out there modernising is wrong and the IA is right for continuing its old ways because they must work, what kind of logic is this?

We need to stop letting the IA get away with this, they swallow up >50% of the defence budget (a mammoth $20BN USD) every single year and yet have NOTHING to show for it, they still look like they are going to fight WW1. Making excuses for them and not holding their feet to the fire and demanding accountability is only going to perpetuate their incompetence and lead to diasater after disaster in the future.

Do we really think they are ready to fight (let alone win) a two front war???

 

[abingdonboy]

US army and NATO forces do it regularly.
BTW which extreme condition you're talking about?
Temp below - 15 c

Or

Scorching heat of Desert

Or
Wet lands

So why you want facepalm?

No but you see, the IA is used to wood so this MUST be the ONLY way. Let them continue using wood for the next centuary, they surely know what they are doing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I didn't quoted you, Stop referring 'Are you telling me' sentence, Not here for pleasing anyone truculent attitude, In case you are in such a mood then you are talking to wrong person and at wrong place..

If you have some disagreement with thinking of IA, Best be civil in debate and read other post, Their is no need for such ranting and following disheartening consequences.

==========

Nor we were talking about SF but regular infantry in Indian context on Indian forum with Indian people related to Military, You like it or not, Its their business end they know better than anyone else, They snatch off the fold-able fiber butt-stock and replace with metal folding butt-stock and replace OFB rails with P-rails, Because it suited their needs and not for your or anyone else.

Are you telling me that this is such a neccesity that the IA's rifle can never feature such innovative buttstocks that would be more useful 99% of the time? Are you telling me all of those top tier SFs around the world that use rifles with such fibre butt stocks don't know better than the IA? That SFs aren't directly likely to be engaged in hand to hand combat? The fact that they still opt for FN SCARs and the like which ALL have fiber butt stocks should tell you just how outdated this logic is.

Heck, even the IA's own SF uses the Tavor and M4 as their main rifles which both have fiber buttstocks (the tavor being bullpup btw would never be used in such a way as described above).

Bro stop making excuses for the backwards mentality in place within the IA. The rest of the world is moving ahead and embracing change and they are clinging on to 1800s era beleifs? Polymors are just as rugged today as any wooden furniture and do not come with the same weight penalty.

When every other army in the world is able to understand this there is NO justifiable reason the IA cannot, there is nothing unique in what the IA does, there is nothing that they know that others don't, they are simply not foreward thinking and too rooted in "tradition" and it is killing them (literally).

No but you see, the IA is used to wood so this MUST be the ONLY way. Let them continue using wood for the next centuary, they surely know what they are doing.

 

[AbRaj]

@AbRaj ... Did you read what Kota Harinarayan wrote about Mig-21? You could read about that in Tejas home site.
Have you noticed how US and other NATO countries make use of Accuracy international Arctic warfare guns instead of regular HK or COLT.
Have you noticed how Galil failed in IA test which have been done across a varied climatic and environmental condition whereas its one of the most sought after gun.

Then please inform Mr Parrikar that you are waisting our money on Raffle, F16/18/gripen etc. Just induct more Mig 21s and we can beat shit out of F22 (as you stated) let alone paki inferior f16 blk50s anytime :biggrin2:
@abingdonboy you should notice this too and stop promoting rafale

 

[AbRaj]

No but you see, the IA is used to wood so this MUST be the ONLY way. Let them continue using wood for the next centuary, they surely know what they are doing.

Even IA uses polymers as you can see in Tevor, M4,Scar-H, and even Insas:biggrin2:
BTW woods are much hyped. They require more time to manufacture ,are maintenance intensive ,swell in rainy season, zero shifts more frequently than polycarb. and have a lot of inherent defects

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Using fiber furniture on AR is for a very different purpose and wood on sniper rifles, comparing these two under same context is comparing oranges with apples ..

 

[AbRaj]

Training with bayonet mounted or unmounted existed in Indian Army`s training manual since post world war era, RR fights on regular basis hand to hand combat in very close quarters in ambushes and raids, RR is not a special force though.

Looks does not effect combat, It nice though but not a priority.

I think issuing a sidearm (pistols) should be better to tackle useless filthy terrorists should be considered.
BTW lighter arm = extra bullets+sidearm
its kinda reminds me old tactics of WVR in air combat versus modern BVR combat.
notice air forces still practice WVR but they tend to avoid it in real combat due to higher chances of casualties.
Killing from distance is better than allowing them to come near

Sorry to say that sir, but to me Indian Army is still struck in WW2 ear combat practice.
Let's compare with Paki forces which are our main enemies.
Through they have a fraction of budget than IA most of their weapons are more modern than ours.
They use SSG as main sniper ,we use SVDs
Although heavy G3 are more accurate and carries more punch (7.62 ammo means almost sure kill) than Insas with 5.5 ammo
Their artillery are better quality than ours.
Even the Chinese ak 56 they use support a variety of scopes and sites.
I've seen pictures of Jerbe ajab , with soldiers carrying aks with better add on's

And they have almost standardized the sights and torch while we are still using iron sights.
@Kunal Biswas sir do paki terrorists also use laser sights and other gadgets with their aks?
Its possible cause Paki army has standardised it :biggrin2:

 

[AbRaj]

Using fiber furniture on AR is for a very different purpose and wood on sniper rifles, comparing these two under same context is comparing oranges with apples ..

Correct be if I am wrong but I think they are for recoil reduction as woods are uniform and heavy than fibre!

 

[AbRaj]

Spot on, too many are quick to justify the "chalta hai" mentality of the IA in particular and go to all sorts of extremes to try and explain why the IA continues with a whole host of backwards practices and uses such outdated tech/tactics when the easiest solution really is that they are incompetent, soft and regressive. Literally, some try to make out that every other force that we see out there modernising is wrong and the IA is right for continuing its old ways because they must work, what kind of logic is this?

We need to stop letting the IA get away with this, they swallow up >50% of the defence budget (a mammoth $20BN USD) every single year and yet have NOTHING to show for it, they still look like they are going to fight WW1. Making excuses for them and not holding their feet to the fire and demanding accountability is only going to perpetuate their incompetence and lead to diasater after disaster in the future.

Do we really think they are ready to fight (let alone win) a two front war???

Spot on
Its high time IA should look for Modern combat gear .
With at least a proper headgear, a fireproof uniform ,a bulletproof waist which is light wait not some 20-30 kg dead wait, good quality assault rifle with laser sights , gloves , shoes, elbow and knee pads ,knife and a sidearm as default
Ratnik like system is minimum

 

[airtel]

I think issuing a sidearm (pistols) should be better to tackle useless filthy terrorists should be considered.
BTW lighter arm = extra bullets+sidearm
its kinda reminds me old tactics of WVR in air combat versus modern BVR combat.
notice air forces still practice WVR but they tend to avoid it in real combat due to higher chances of casualties.
Killing from distance is better than allowing them to come near

Sorry to say that sir, but to me Indian Army is still struck in WW2 ear combat practice.
Let's compare with Paki forces which are our main enemies.
Through they have a fraction of budget than IA most of their weapons are more modern than ours.
They use SSG as main sniper ,we use SVDs
Although heavy G3 are more accurate and carries more punch (7.62 ammo means almost sure kill) than Insas with 5.5 ammo
Their artillery are better quality than ours.
Even the Chinese ak 56 they use support a variety of scopes and sites.
I've seen pictures of Jerbe ajab , with soldiers carrying aks with better add on's

And they have almost standardized the sights and torch while we are still using iron sights.
@Kunal Biswas sir do paki terrorists also use laser sights and other gadgets with their aks?
Its possible cause Paki army has standardised it :biggrin2:

I think these are Paki Special forces .

 

[AbRaj]

But these are not

@airtel

 

[airtel]

But these are not

this are Images of some Kind of exercise ............................

 

[AbRaj]

this are Images of some Kind of exercise ............................

Nop
30chr...................
....
...

 

[Chinmoy]

Then please inform Mr Parrikar that you are waisting our money on Raffle, F16/18/gripen etc. Just induct more Mig 21s and we can beat shit out of F22 (as you stated) let alone paki inferior f16 blk50s anytime :biggrin2:
@abingdonboy you should notice this too and stop promoting rafale

Seems you didn't even bothered to read on what I said. I'd request you to kindly read scripts to know more about. Anyway I'm giving a snippet of that here.

Meanwhile I was also doing my PhD. I went to IIT Bombay, registered myself and stayed there. At that point, I thought to myself that I had already done some eight to nine years of work and I didn’t want to do it in any obtuse subject. I told myself that my interest is in fighter aircraft and I had always felt that the MiG aircraft was not designed for India. It was designed for Russia’s cold conditions. If you sit inside the cockpit of a MiG 21, it is like a hot furnace. We need cooling whereas they had a heater inside the cockpit because they were operating in Siberia where it is always cold. Russia had two climates cold and colder whereas we have hot and hotter.

Now as you could see, we have different set of need then Russians. If we talk about Tejas itself, it would have to undertake flight in Himalayas as well as flight in Kanyakumari. Russian way of designing is not going to be beneficial for us at all. In one of the above picture where polymer furniture of INSAS has been displayed, I'd like to point out the fact that the butt stock is made up of Steel alloy rather then pure carbon or plastic polymer. From my personal experience, in 2008 I'd seen soldiers complaining about the fragile transparent polymer magazine in cold climate. Although I agree that massive improvement has been made in since then and the mag atleast is there to stay.
I agree that there is a lackadaisical attitude in IA, but when it comes to grass root soldiers, they prefer things in their own way. You might have seen AK with polymer furniture as a common sight with Paramilitary, but when it comes to IA or Jawans of any of the Paramiltary force engaged in COIN ops, the old Bulgarian model with wooden furniture is most preferred for its ruggedness.
Moreover if you need any further info in this matter, then I would request you along with @abingdonboy to visit any such post rather then gulping down the online articles.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You have posted pictures of SSG, Terrorist indeed of Pakistani forces on both post, They are the only arm of PA whose AK56 have P-rail and attachments contrast to IA who use Jewish TAR-21 with P-rail and attachments.

Automatic marksman rifle is best in squad or platoon formation than bolt-action, Cumbersome G3 or SLR both share same problems which is why Army went for lighter AR INSAS 1B1 on first place, INSAS 1B1`s Indian origin 5.56mm is not meant for wounding enemy, 5.56mm of NATO origin does.

I could talk more on artillery, But that`s another topic, You can open such a thread on Pakistani section.

Sorry to say that sir, but to me Indian Army is still struck in WW2 ear combat practice.

Let's compare with Paki forces which are our main enemies.Through they have a fraction of budget than IA most of their weapons are more modern than ours.

They use SSG as main sniper ,we use SVDs Although heavy G3 are more accurate and carries more punch (7.62 ammo means almost sure kill) than Insas with 5.5 ammo

Their artillery are better quality than ours.Even the Chinese ak 56 they use support a variety of scopes and sites.I've seen pictures of Jerbe ajab , with soldiers carrying aks with better add on's

And they have almost standardized the sights and torch while we are still using iron sights.
@Kunal Biswas sir do paki terrorists also use laser sights and other gadgets with their aks?
Its possible cause Paki army has standardised it :biggrin2:

But these are not

 

[airtel]

Go & watch Youtube videos of Real paki soldiers ................both paki & Indian regular soldiers are not that well equipped .


India is upgrading ..............by the way , we recently bought bulletproof jackets & new helmets .