Small arms of India

[Chinmoy]

But Kunal ji was asking about regula infantry...most paramilitary guys don't need all the stuff that a regular soldier needs...
Soldiers wont ask for anything...but's it's our duty to provide them

Actually the guy I am talking about is from the force which is actively engaged in COIN. Moreover I think its the only para military force who have its administrative control under MoD and its the only force in my knowledge, which regularly exchange officers and soldiers with IA on deputation basis.

As far as asking and giving is going, please note that we should only provide what the soldier needs and demand for. Not something which we think is suitable. Some basic gears would always be there, but other then that its upto the soldier on what they need.

 

[armyofhind]

I think that apart from standardising basic kit across the force, the army should include certain allowance within the pay package of every soldier with which he can buy whatever extra kit he thinks is suitable for him from Army shops.

And they should arrange it such that the allowance cannot be used otherwise as cash and unused allowance keeps adding up through the months.

 

[ghost]

In short, people would not stop comparing IA with US army or any other western forces when it comes to advertisement purpose. Just a couple of days back I'd a small talk with one paramilitary guy who was going home on annual leave. When asked him about some basic requirement and his look into this matter, this is what he said he wants.

Helmet : Ho toh accha hain, naa ho toh bhi chalta hain.
Knee cap, Elbow cap, Gloves : Zaroorat nahin Jawano ko. Hardam pehenna mushkil hain.
Shoes : Pehle wale bhaari hote the, par ab halke wale aaye hain. Jo bhi hain theek hain.
BPJ : Operation pe jaate hain toh zaroori hain. Har waqt nahin pehen sakte.

Now I've kept the language as it is as he said. Although I asked him about AR too and specifically of using AR and INSAS. So basically what he said is, ops pe hume AK lena pasand hain. I believe its because of the reliability of the system. Wanted to ask about the wooden and metallic furniture priority too, but he was not too comfortable discussing so much, so left it.

So I believe, instead of focusing on what we want to see, we should talk about what the real soldier want.

A soldier know what he needs,really!Only a informed and proactive soldier know what he needs.

"Helmet:Ho toh accha,naa ho to bhi acha hain."

This line is enough to show his "chalta hai" attitude ,and for you to propagate this here,sad.

You represent those fools who do not wear helmets while riding motorcycles,who do not wear seat belts while riding cars;they all know what they are doing until shit happen.

Go,ask this from a soldier whose life was saved because bullet ricochet from his helmet or ask this from a soldier who has splinters in his head because he was not wearing a helmet.

Do you know soldiers have their kit checked by the commanding officer before beginning of a combat patrol,because many skip on essentials items ,even basic such as enough ammunition, just because their sorry ass do not want to carry little extra weight.If each soldier knew what is best, then where was the need of hierarchy.

If a soldier says that he does not want to wear body armor ,then what?you will propagate that there is no need of body armor.

If you have to talk, then go and talk to BS Jaswal (retd), former northern army commander.According to him"On the modernization front, I reckon we are running 15 years behind."

Why do everyone compare with US soldiers ?Maybe,because they are involved in combat all over the world,they continuously evolve,they set the benchmark ,they are visionary,they believe in the quest of perfection!

How about this as an advertisement for Helmet:

How about this as an advertisement for body armor:


The elbow and knee pad in present form are not good, as they tend to slip during movement,we need something like this:

 

[Chinmoy]

A soldier know what he needs,really!Only a informed and proactive soldier know what he needs.

"Helmet:Ho toh accha,naa ho to bhi acha hain."

This line is enough to show his "chalta hai" attitude ,and for you to propagate this here,sad.

You represent those fools who do not wear helmets while riding motorcycles,who do not wear seat belts while riding cars;they all know what they are doing until shit happen.

Go,ask this from a soldier whose life was saved because bullet ricochet from his helmet or ask this from a soldier who has splinters in his head because he was not wearing a helmet.

Do you know soldiers have their kit checked by the commanding officer before beginning of a combat patrol,because many skip on essentials items ,even basic such as enough ammunition, just because their sorry ass doesn't have to carry little extra weight.If each soldier knew what is best, then where was the need of hierarchy.

If a soldier says that he does not want to wear body armor ,then what?you will propagate that there is no need of body armor.

If you have to talk, then go and talk to BS Jaswal (retd), former northern army commander.According to him"On the modernization front, I reckon we are running 15 years behind."

Why do everyone compare with US soldiers ?Maybe,because they are involved in combat all over the world,they continuously evolve,they set the benchmark ,they are visionary,they believe in the quest of perfection!

How about this as an advertisement for Helmet:

How about this as an advertisement for body armor:


The elbow and knee pad in present form are not good, as they tend to slip during movement,we need something like this:

Where had I propagated anything like protective armour or BPJ are not needed??? Could you kindly point that out???
Even the guy said that it is preferred one when they are out on any ops, but what he pointed out is that one cannot wear it on a full time basis. When armour is concerned you have to admit the fact that its a dual edged sword. BPJs does protect you from bullet, period, but keeping it on does also impact the natural movement of a person under normal condition.
The point I made here is regarding the standardization of army kit. I didn't said that we should sans basic armaments. But does BPJ feature any where in army's standard kit? Please ask Mr BS Jaswal. BPJ is a must in Kashmir or anywhere where ops is taking place. But do you justify any soldier putting it on while performing a sentry duty in any cantonment area in Rajasthan or MP for that?
Same is the case with Ballistic helmet. Most of the soldiers prefer Patka over helmets due to the ease of operating with it. Forcing them for helmet over patka would be like keeping them enclosed in a bullet proof shell and asking them to shoot at enemy through a single small window. It would provide him with a hypothetical safety, but would severely reduce his operating capability. So here too you would have to be careful on what to offer. Earlier too we have seen that Helmet only does provide safety from neck injury at best in comparison to patka. So blindly vouching for helmet based on some random footage or advertisement video is not a solution. Better we should look at something in between Patka and Helmet with best of both.

No where I denied that we are world leaders in personal armour division. No we are not and we seriously need to work on that. But while doing so we should also take into account what common soldiers think and reacts to these. Afterall it should not be all safety and less efficiency. For that IMO the best way out is to get in contact with the soldiers who would be actually donning these instead of the Generals.

Moreover I think people like me and you could only discuss the pros and cons and could make matter easy if its possible instead of blind comparison.

 

[ghost]

Where had I propagated anything like protective armour or BPJ are not needed??? Could you kindly point that out???
Even the guy said that it is preferred one when they are out on any ops, but what he pointed out is that one cannot wear it on a full time basis. When armour is concerned you have to admit the fact that its a dual edged sword. BPJs does protect you from bullet, period, but keeping it on does also impact the natural movement of a person under normal condition.
The point I made here is regarding the standardization of army kit. I didn't said that we should sans basic armaments. But does BPJ feature any where in army's standard kit? Please ask Mr BS Jaswal. BPJ is a must in Kashmir or anywhere where ops is taking place. But do you justify any soldier putting it on while performing a sentry duty in any cantonment area in Rajasthan or MP for that?
Same is the case with Ballistic helmet. Most of the soldiers prefer Patka over helmets due to the ease of operating with it. Forcing them for helmet over patka would be like keeping them enclosed in a bullet proof shell and asking them to shoot at enemy through a single small window. It would provide him with a hypothetical safety, but would severely reduce his operating capability. So here too you would have to be careful on what to offer. Earlier too we have seen that Helmet only does provide safety from neck injury at best in comparison to patka. So blindly vouching for helmet based on some random footage or advertisement video is not a solution. Better we should look at something in between Patka and Helmet with best of both.

No where I denied that we are world leaders in personal armour division. No we are not and we seriously need to work on that. But while doing so we should also take into account what common soldiers think and reacts to these. Afterall it should not be all safety and less efficiency. For that IMO the best way out is to get in contact with the soldiers who would be actually donning these instead of the Generals.

Moreover I think people like me and you could only discuss the pros and cons and could make matter easy if its possible instead of blind comparison.

Soldier feedback is important,but it should be used to make improvements as per the feedback, not to outright reject it.

No one is asking to wear body-armor all the time, only when required,but they should make it a part of combat gear by default.Regarding their weight and size, that's why we are asking our army to adopt new body armor which is light weight ,modular and enable free movement :

I have no problem with Patka if they evolve ,include things such as:

Trauma protection pads.

Provision of mounting accessories such as NVG,flashlight,battery pouch,friend and foe sensor.

The way forward is to evolve .I agree with you,we need to standardize new kits.Our army is a professional force .It should look the part.

 

[Bornubus]

Leaving this thread, pretty sad to see how many are trying to defend mediocrity

just enjoy the show dude. What's funny is that people love to post fancy firearms and gear even though they haven't saw a real firearm in their life let alone fire it. lol

Was listening to Col RSN Singh how vested interest kill our indigenous weapon development, no foreign gear or rifle can completely fulfill Indian Armed forces requirement.

 

[ghost]

just enjoy the show dude. What's funny is that people love to post fancy firearms and gear even though they haven't saw a real firearm in their life let alone fire it. lol

Was listening to Col RSN Singh how vested interest kill our indigenous weapon development, no foreign gear or rifle can completely fulfill Indian Armed forces requirement.

If you have any problem with things I post ,point it out.

 

[Bornubus]

If you have any problem with things I post ,point it out.

I have not read your Post. Why you things it's directed towards you ?

 

[ghost]

I have not read your Post. Why you things it's directed towards you ?

Because, I said army should have lighter vest,and Patka should evolve to include nvg mount and trauma protection pads.I thought these were "fancy western gear" as per you.Anyway ,no one is against indigenous effort ,if it is on par with world standard.There are many Indian companies doing good work in this field.

 

[Bornubus]

Because, I said army should have lighter vest,and Patka should evolve to include nvg mount and trauma protection pads

NVG can be mounted on Patka and RR troops (Limited numbers) are already equipped with it. Apart from large number of Rifles with NV attachment in service with troops in Kashmir and NE.

Also, BH and BPJ are being ordered for troops deployed for CT areas.

http://www.forceindia.net/StoppingtheBullet.aspx


What do you want to see more ?

 

[ghost]

NVG can be mounted on Patka and RR troops (Limited numbers) are already equipped with it. Apart from NVG mounts their are large number of Rifles with NV attachment in service with troops in Kashmir and NE.

Also, BH and BPJ are being ordered for troops deployed for CT areas.

http://www.forceindia.net/StoppingtheBullet.aspx


What do you want to see more ?

All this in large numbers,plus good optics as standard.New combat uniform with insertable pads instead of the present elbow and knee pad.Plus a good assault backpack instead of pithu .Improved individual first aid kit,individual communication system.

Something in this line would be preferred:http://www.armyrecognition.com/russ...t_specifications_pictures_video_12205165.html

 

[Chinmoy]

Soldier feedback is important,but it should be used to make improvements as per the feedback, not to outright reject it.

No one is asking to wear body-armor all the time, only when required,but they should make it a part of combat gear by default.Regarding their weight and size, that's why we are asking our army to adopt new body armor which is light weight ,modular and enable free movement :

I have no problem with Patka if they evolve ,include things such as:

Trauma protection pads.

Provision of mounting accessories such as NVG,flashlight,battery pouch,friend and foe sensor.

The way forward is to evolve .I agree with you,we need to standardize new kits.Our army is a professional force .It should look the part.

Now I do agree with what you say. The point I made before is about standardizing the infantry man. When we use the term standard, IMO it means to equip one and all infantry man with equipment and gears where we could say that he is at Minimal Operational Readiness, irrespective of the place he is posted in.
Now BPJ or tactical vests and tactical helmets are more operation specific rather then being standard kit of any infantry man.

 

[tharun]

Is INSAS a short stroke or long stroke gas piston..?
Any one heard of Adcor a556..it functions like INSAS in many ways

 

[ghost]

Is INSAS a short stroke or long stroke gas piston..?
Any one heard of Adcor a556..it functions like INSAS in many ways

Since it is inspired by ak 47 it has long stroke gas piston ,with rotating bolt, but some of it has also been inspired by fn FAL such as gas regulator.

 

[tharun]

Since it is inspired by ak 47 it has long stroke gas piston ,with rotating bolt, but some of it has also been inspired by fn FAL such as gas regulator.

There are many guns with the same profile bushmaster ACR, ARAK and many more even FN-Scar has same operation as insas but charging handle beats back every time..
Is short stroke piston good or bad?

 

[ghost]

There are many guns with the same profile bushmaster ACR, ARAK and many more even FN-Scar has same operation as insas but charging handle beats back every time..
Is short stroke piston good or bad?

Long stroke piston are generally more reliable,since they have single connected mass moving backward and forward(piston and bolt carrier are connected,they move as one ) where as a short stroke piston have different moving parts hence less reliable(bolt carrier has tendency to tilt,hence cause damage to receiver extension)

But,then short stroke has many advantages such as higher cyclic rate ,less recoil.Modern short stroke are as reliable.It boils down to your preference.

 

[rishivashista13]

Long stroke piston are generally more reliable,since they have single connected mass moving backward and forward(piston and bolt carrier are connected,they move as one ) where as a short stroke piston have different moving parts hence less reliable(bolt carrier has tendency to tilt,hence cause damage to receiver extension)

But,then short stroke has many advantages such as higher cyclic rate ,less recoil.Modern short stroke are as reliable.It boils down to your preference.

Can you please explain a little bit , how bolt carrier has tendency to tilt and how it will damage the receiver in short stroke firearms ?

Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk

 

[ghost]

Can you please explain a little bit , how bolt carrier has tendency to tilt and how it will damage the receiver in short stroke firearms ?

Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk

First let me explain the long stroke and short stroke quickly:

These are the main parts of a piston driven system:

Now this is a long stroke piston:

Here everything is connected as one part,so when gas drive piston head backwards ,whole system moves with it in a linear movement.It moves backward and forward as one mass.This can be seen in the following gif,which represent ak47 long stroke piston movement:

As you can see the whole movement(backward and forward) is linear ,this is because it move as one single mass in the same direction.

Now this is a short stroke piston:

Here you can see the piston,connecting rod are separated from the bolt carrier and bolt(refer to the top-most diagram for detail)

As the piston and connecting rod are separated from the bolt carrier and bolt they give a violent push to the bolt carrier as they hit the top part of bolt carrier when the piston move backward due to gas.Since the force is applied to the top part(kinetic energy ) instead of being linear the bolt carrier tilt.Specially the rear bottom edge and front upper edge.(since the force applied is not linear )

Explained in red,this tilt movement is what cause wear and tear in( receiver extension/buffer tube)

This tilt is known as carrier tilt.

 

[rishivashista13]

First let me explain the long stroke and short stroke quickly:

These are the main parts of a piston driven system:

Now this is a long stroke piston:

Here everything is connected as one part,so when gas drive piston head backwards ,whole system moves with it in a linear movement.It moves backward and forward as one mass.This can be seen in the following gif,which represent ak47 long stroke piston movement:

As you can see the whole movement(backward and forward) is linear ,this is because it move as one single mass in the same direction.

Now this is a short stroke piston:

Here you can see the piston,connecting rod are separated from the bolt carrier and bolt(refer to the top-most diagram for detail)

As the piston and connecting rod are separated from the bolt carrier and bolt they give a violent push to the bolt carrier as they hit the top part of bolt carrier when the piston move backward due to gas.Since the force is applied to the top part(kinetic energy ) instead of being linear the bolt carrier tilt.Specially the rear bottom edge and front upper edge.(since the force applied is not linear )

Explained in red,this tilt movement is what cause wear and tear in( receiver extension/buffer tube)

This tilt is known as carrier tilt.

Nicely explained , it will help many people to clear there basics .

Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk

 

[tharun]

First let me explain the long stroke and short stroke quickly:

These are the main parts of a piston driven system:

Now this is a long stroke piston:

Here everything is connected as one part,so when gas drive piston head backwards ,whole system moves with it in a linear movement.It moves backward and forward as one mass.This can be seen in the following gif,which represent ak47 long stroke piston movement:

As you can see the whole movement(backward and forward) is linear ,this is because it move as one single mass in the same direction.

Now this is a short stroke piston:

Here you can see the piston,connecting rod are separated from the bolt carrier and bolt(refer to the top-most diagram for detail)

As the piston and connecting rod are separated from the bolt carrier and bolt they give a violent push to the bolt carrier as they hit the top part of bolt carrier when the piston move backward due to gas.Since the force is applied to the top part(kinetic energy ) instead of being linear the bolt carrier tilt.Specially the rear bottom edge and front upper edge.(since the force applied is not linear )

Explained in red,this tilt movement is what cause wear and tear in( receiver extension/buffer tube)

This tilt is known as carrier tilt.

Which piston will suit indian conditions in future?