Small arms of India

[laughingbuddha]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

REDIFF.COM

3:18 PM Anti-Naxal ops: CRPF prefers AK rifles to INSAS, bulk purchase on cards: The Central Reserve Police Force, which is deployed for anti- Naxal operations, has decided to shun its standard weapon of combat, the indigenous INSAS rifle, and henceforth arm its troops exclusively with the AK series of assault rifles.

The force has also sought to procure 20,000 new AK series rifles for its troops deployed in the Left Wing Extremism affected areas in various states and counter-insurgency theatres in the north-east after it found that the INSAS rifle was not proving to be as "operationally suitable" as the Russian made AK-47 and -56 series of combat rifles.

The country's largest paramilitary force, with its three lakh personnel, is now planning to reduce the numbers of INSAS rifles in its armoury after a technical and scientific comparison with the sophisticated AK rifles found that the latter was more effective.

 

[Ky Loung]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

3 stoppage for every 1k is unacceptable in a combat rifle IMO. That's way too many jams. The test is too lax. M4/M16 are rated at 1 stoppage every 4k.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

Our forces use Colt M4 here, It jams after every 90rnds more or less, Cleaning it also a issue as parts are small and chances of them getting lost in field areas are higher ..

3 stoppage for every 1k is unacceptable in a combat rifle IMO. That's way too many jams. The test is too lax. M4/M16 are rated at 1 stoppage every 4k.

 

[Ky Loung]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

Sure it does that's why the US military use AR15 for over 50 year. Not to mention almost every Western Special Force units. They all use it because it jam once every 90rnds. I really don't know what you guys are doing wrong but 1 jam per 90 rounds, well I throw it in the trash can.

There is only one small part that might get lost, Firing Pin Retaining Pin. The AR15 don't really need cleaning. All it needs is oil on the bolt carrier and bolt. Ten of thousands of rounds without cleaning inside. Second a trained soldier do not lose parts when field stripping.

Suppressor are widely use on AR15. Shooting suppressed get the firearm dirty really fast. As a rude of thumb every 100 round suppressed equal 1k unsuppressed. My AR15 shot over 4k round suppressed without cleaning. All I did was put a few drops of oil now and than on the bolt carrier hold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXIsKEHo-4g

 

[Twinblade]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

3 stoppage for every 1k is unacceptable in a combat rifle IMO. That's way too many jams. The test is too lax. M4/M16 are rated at 1 stoppage every 4k.

Sure it does that's why the US military use AR15 for over 50 year. Not to mention almost every Western Special Force units. They all use it because it jam once every 90rnds. I really don't know what you guys are doing wrong but 1 jam per 90 rounds, well I throw it in the trash can.

4000 rounds ? please, the m4 jammed once every 68 rounds in worst case scenarios conducted by the user, despite intensive care. Baseline m4 will never meet the 99.7% reliability criteria.

DID obtains some exact results from the Army's testing. The Army has now done 3 dust tests. In the late 2006/Jan 2007 report "Baseline Reliability and Dust Assessment for the M4, M16, and M249," the M4 jammed 9,836 times – 1 jam every 6 rounds. In a May 2007 "Extreme Dust Test II", with no competitors, the M4 had 1 jam every 88 rounds, using heavy lubrication. In the November 2007 "Extreme Dust Test III", as DID has discussed, the competing rifles were subject to significantly more maintenance and lubrication than elite American forces like Delta used in their weapon selection process, or indeed in HK's own field testing of its HK416s prior to shipment.

We'll begin with the Army's overall results, from its own release:

"Even with extreme dust test III's 98.6 percent success rate there was a total of 863 class 1 and 2 weapon/magazine stoppages with 19 class 3 stoppages. During extreme dust test II conducted during the summer, there were 296 total class 1 and 2 stoppages and 11 class 3 stoppages.

..........................

The M4 Carbine is the Army's existing weapon.
882 jams, 1 jam every 68 rounds, again using heavy lubrication. In addition all 10 of the M4 barrels needed to be replaced, and a number of their parts were replaced during the test. None of the cold hammer forged HK416 and XM-8 barrels needed replacement.

The USA's M4 Carbine Controversy

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

You have to pick that up from the trash back, Not trying to be rude but M4 does not go well with our terrain and training ..

Besides, M4 we use our own 1B1s and TAR-21 and Galil Sniper Rifles are lesser prone to such issues ..

I really don't know what you guys are doing wrong but 1 jam per 90 rounds, well I throw it in the trash can.

 

[Ky Loung]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

4000 rounds ? please, the m4 jammed once every 68 rounds in worst case scenarios conducted by the user, despite intensive care. Baseline m4 will never meet the 99.7% reliability criteria.



The USA's M4 Carbine Controversy

Hahahah. This "report" have been beaten to death 1 billion time in the US firearm community. Anything wrong with the AR15 family of rifles get people attention really fast in the USA. AR15 is the most popular rifle in America. If you are a gun owner sooner rather than later you will own an AR15. I won't be surprise if over 50-100 millions AR15 in US civilian hands. As a rule of thumb Americans don't buy cheap unreliable guns.

The report was a marketing ploy from H&K to promote their H&K416. It is common knowledge. In the battle of Wanat, the M4 went beyond it limitation. Basically no rifle would have fair better in the fight. The full report below.

The truth behind the recent M4 controversy - The Firearm Blog

What Really Happened at Wanat | U.S. Naval Institute

The Dust Test was so poorly done that it got the attention of Congress. It was well known the test was design to make the M4 look as bad ass possible. They did another Dust Test and it went as expected with the M4. It was inline with it failure rate.

Elements Of Power: Extreme Dust Test: M4 and Others

Now lets look at the SCAR. Both Ranger and SEAL stop using SCAR 16. They went back to M4 because SCAR had lots of reliability and breakage problems. SEAL stop using SCAR 17 and went back to M110 because SCAR eat optics/electronics. It also gives lower accuracy than the M110.

H&K416 well HK is going bankrupt. Only US SEAL, French Commandos, and one or two European countries is using them. Norway IIRC.

SOCOM abandons FN SCAR Mk-16 - The Firearm Blog

FN SCAR 16/17 - Question for NSW Operators - SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_24/408532_Scars_eat_optics_.html

The M4 and M16 has the highest satisfaction rate among combat troops. With a mean of 89% avg for M4 and 75% for M16. No other American combat rifles even come close to those two numbers. 80% conference rate on reliability from combat veterans. The future rifle program was design to find a replacement for AR15 family of rifles have now official stopped. The conclusion is no clear overall advantage over the M4/M16.

http://images.military.com/pix/defensetech/cna_m4_study_d0015259_a2.pdf

We discard nationalism and money when picking the best weapon and equipment. We want the best because our lives is worth more than national pride and money. FN have the contract to produce M16 (100%) and 50% of M4 the US military use.

 

[Ky Loung]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

Sorry somehow it posted twice.

 

[karn]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

We discard nationalism and money when picking the best weapon and equipment. We want the best because our lives is worth more than national pride and money. FN have the contract to produce M16 (100%) and 50% of M4 the US military use.

Who cares ? The m4 fell far below the reliability criteria for the armed forces (not civilian law enforcement) . So much so that the army does not even consider direct impingement rifles anymore .

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

Re: This lightweight packs a punch

>99.7% accuracy fail? I'm still trying to figure what this means.

sorry. Less than 99.7% ie 99.4%.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

Judging that from your post, Mostly based on civilian experience including blog sources ..

Hahahah. This "report" have been beaten to death 1 billion time in the US firearm community. Anything wrong with the AR15 family of rifles get people attention really fast in the USA. AR15 is the most popular rifle in America. If you are a gun owner sooner rather than later you will own an AR15. I won't be surprise if over 50-100 millions AR15 in US civilian hands. As a rule of thumb Americans don't buy cheap unreliable guns.

We discard nationalism and money when picking the best weapon and equipment. We want the best because our lives is worth more than national pride and money. FN have the contract to produce M16 (100%) and 50% of M4 the US military use.

 

[Redhawk]

@Kunal dadaa,,, we have GPMG,, we have our set of FNMAG, and PK series Machine guns,, aren't they enough for the role of supressive fire??????

Wiki article on the FN MAG: India: Manufactured by the Ordnance Factories Board under license.

At 10.85 kg and 1.263 m it is a heavy and awkward beast for a section gun group, to be sure, but it can and does lay down a usefully high volume of fire. The gas regulator allows for the cyclic rate of fire to be adjusted from 650 to 1000 r.p.m. which is also very useful in engaging different targets. And of course, she is a very reliable weapon if properly maintained.

 

[Redhawk]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

Who cares ? The m4 fell far below the reliability criteria for the armed forces (not civilian law enforcement) . So much so that the army does not even consider direct impingement rifles anymore .

Quite right, too. The direct-impingement system of operation in military small arms is not a reliable enough system.

 

[Ray]

'Peace Weapon' Kalashnikov proposes to set up plant in Gujarat
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...t-in-Gandhis-Gujarat/articleshow/45390824.cms

Kalashnikov: promoting peace and calm' – notorious gun gets a makeover
Russian manufacturer of assault rifle that became the weapon of choice for guerrillas around the world has a slick rebranding
Krivoruchko said on Tuesday that a huge contract to supply up to 200,000 weapons a year to the US and Canada is still on hold after Washington slapped sanctions on Russian defence companies including Kalashnikov over the summer, in response to Russia's actions in Ukraine. The US accuses Russia of backing the insurgency in east Ukraine, where Kalashnikov rifles are used both by the insurgents and the Ukrainian forces.

Kalashnikov was meant to supply between 80,000 and 200,000 sporting rifles and shotguns annually to a US importer for the next five years, under an agreement signed in January, but Krivoruchko said not a single gun had been delivered. Instead, the firm is exploring new markets in Asia.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...moting-peace-calm-notorious-gun-gets-makeover

 

[Redhawk]

That's interesting. If Kalashnikov starts making small arms in Gujarat it can only contribute to India's export trade. India could start exporting Kalashnikov small arms all over the world at a significantly lower price.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Would glad if they introduce their shotguns in Indian market vs IOF models ..

Kalashnikov was meant to supply between 80,000 and 200,000 sporting rifles and shotguns annually to a US importer for the next five years, under an agreement signed in January, but Krivoruchko said not a single gun had been delivered. Instead, the firm is exploring new markets in Asia.
'Kalashnikov: promoting peace and calm' – notorious gun gets a makeover | World news | The Guardian

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Mauser 96: The weapon used by Indian Revolutionaries

The C96 is a semi-automatic pistol that was manufactured from 1896 to 1936 in Germany , officially the Federal Republic of Germany , is a country in central Europe. It is bordered to the north by the North Sea, Denmark, and the Baltic Sea, to the east by Poland and the Czech Republic, to the south by Austria and Sw.... It was one of the first semi-automatic pistols to see widespread use.The main characteristics that distinguish the C96 are the integral box magazine in front of the trigger, the long barrel, the wooden shoulder stock which can double as a holster or carrying case, and a grip shaped like the end of a broom's handle (which earned it the nickname "Broomhandle" in the English-speaking world). The Mauser C96 can be considered one of the first personal defense weapons (PDW). A personal defense weapon is a compact firearm, smaller than a full-size submachine gun, but more powerful and flexible than a normal pistol....s), as its long barrel and powerful cartridge gave it superior range and better penetration capabilities than most other standard pistols.

Imported and domestic copies of the C96 were used extensively by the Chinese in the Second Sino-Japanese WarSecond Sino-Japanese War
The Second Sino-Japanese War was a major war fought between the Republic of China and the Empire of Japan, both before and during World War II....
and the Chinese Civil WarChinese Civil War
The 'Chinese Civil War' was a conflict in China between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party of China ....
. It was nicknamed the "box cannon" because it was holstered in a wooden box as well as for its unique external magazine. Some domestic copies even displayed serial numbers of original Mauser-manufactured pistols.

The C96 was used by Indian revolutionaries during the Indian independence movementIndian independence movement

The Indian Independence Movement consisted of efforts by Indians to obtain political independence from British Raj, French India and Portuguese India rule; it involved a wide spectrum of Indian political organizations, philosophies, and rebelli.... Leaders like Bhagat Singh was an India revolutionary, considered to be one of the most famous martyrs of the Indian freedom struggle...., Chandrasekhar Azad was an Indian revolutionary and the mentor of Bhagat Singh. Chandrasekhar Azad is considered one of the most famous Indian revolutionaries, along with Bhagat Singh, Sukhdev, Rajguru, Ram Prasad Bismil, and Asfhaqulah Khan, Sukhdev Thapar and others used Mausers smuggled from China.

The C96 Mauser had been favoured by the Jewish armed guards in the Ottoman PalestinePalestine,Palestine is one of several names for the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the banks of the Jordan River with various adjoining lands....
and the paramilitaries of HaganahHaganah
The Haganah was a Jewish paramilitary organization in what was then the Palestine from 1920 to 1948. It was the main precursor for Israel's army: the Israel Defense Forces ....
in the British Mandate of Palestine. Most of the pistols had been bought by either private buyers or agents of the Jewish settlement movement in Europe and sent to Palestine. Despite the pistols' worldwide popularity and fame, the only nation to use the C96 as the primary service pistolService pistol
A Service Pistol is any handgun issued to military personnel....
of its military and police was China. Today the Broomhandle MauserMauser
Mauser is the common name of a Germany arms manufacturer, maker of a line of bolt-action rifles from the 1870s to present....
is a popular collector's gun; many have come on to the civilian market after being exported from China.

Source : History of Gun in India: Mauser 96: The weapon used by Indian Revolutionaries

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Should have produced by IOF for Civil use, Its iconic ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We took all three configurations of the C96 Broomhandle Mauser - a pistol, a carbine, and a machine pistol - out to the range for some comparisons. For more information, check out Forgotten Weapons:

 

[sydsnyper]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

I am replying to this post now because I recently had a conversation with a coworker who is an Iraq veteran about the M16/M4. He says that on the field the M16/M4 were not reliable under sustained combat conditions. He personally would have preferred the AK "any given day" (in his own words). We did not get into the technicalities, but he was very strongly against army issued rifles.

The INSAS philosophy has been to compete with the simplicity and reliability of the AK.

That being said, I cannot say if it was his personal opinion or if he had any technical points to support his argument and neither do I know his extent and nature of service in the military.

I would like to ask you if you have served in an active engagement and what are your personal observations on using the rifle or the carbine.

Hahahah. This "report" have been beaten to death 1 billion time in the US firearm community. Anything wrong with the AR15 family of rifles get people attention really fast in the USA. AR15 is the most popular rifle in America. If you are a gun owner sooner rather than later you will own an AR15. I won't be surprise if over 50-100 millions AR15 in US civilian hands. As a rule of thumb Americans don't buy cheap unreliable guns.

The report was a marketing ploy from H&K to promote their H&K416. It is common knowledge. In the battle of Wanat, the M4 went beyond it limitation. Basically no rifle would have fair better in the fight. The full report below.

The truth behind the recent M4 controversy - The Firearm Blog

What Really Happened at Wanat | U.S. Naval Institute

The Dust Test was so poorly done that it got the attention of Congress. It was well known the test was design to make the M4 look as bad ass possible. They did another Dust Test and it went as expected with the M4. It was inline with it failure rate.

Elements Of Power: Extreme Dust Test: M4 and Others

Now lets look at the SCAR. Both Ranger and SEAL stop using SCAR 16. They went back to M4 because SCAR had lots of reliability and breakage problems. SEAL stop using SCAR 17 and went back to M110 because SCAR eat optics/electronics. It also gives lower accuracy than the M110.

H&K416 well HK is going bankrupt. Only US SEAL, French Commandos, and one or two European countries is using them. Norway IIRC.

SOCOM abandons FN SCAR Mk-16 - The Firearm Blog

FN SCAR 16/17 - Question for NSW Operators - SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network

Scars eat optics. - AR15.COM

The M4 and M16 has the highest satisfaction rate among combat troops. With a mean of 89% avg for M4 and 75% for M16. No other American combat rifles even come close to those two numbers. 80% conference rate on reliability from combat veterans. The future rifle program was design to find a replacement for AR15 family of rifles have now official stopped. The conclusion is no clear overall advantage over the M4/M16.

http://images.military.com/pix/defensetech/cna_m4_study_d0015259_a2.pdf

We discard nationalism and money when picking the best weapon and equipment. We want the best because our lives is worth more than national pride and money. FN have the contract to produce M16 (100%) and 50% of M4 the US military use.

 

[Zebra]

Published on Nov 12, 2014, by Military Forces