Rafale no match for China's MMRCA

[p2prada]

Nimo. It is open source knowledge that IAF is presently way ahead as compared to PLAAF or PAF. The JF-17 and J-10A are both said to be at the same levels as a F-16Block 20. The radar on both the dragons are only comparable to early F-16 versions and perhaps as good as the Kyopo M. It's nowhere close to the Bars, RBE-2 or Captor let alone the more modern designs. Other than radar there are plenty of other electronics unavailable on the J-10. Air to ground capability is literally non existent as of today. The best A2G fighter in China is still the Su-30MK imported from Russia.

However I would say the aerodynamics on the J-10 is first rate and quite equivalent to latest F-16s, actually better when it comes to high altitude.

The J-10B is obviously going to be more advanced, but I won't be expecting the moon. I am critical of India's defence industry and I would say China's only a slightly bit ahead. The only difference is the armed forces want finished products as compared to the Chinese requirement of inducting whatever was developed, no matter what problems. I guess this has a lot to do with the scope of choices both our countries have.

 

[p2prada]

First, PAF currently fields more than 400 fighters which is more than 50% of the strength of IAF despite the fact that they have 1/5th the airspace and only one border to care for. They will be replacing their current inventory with JF-17s and J-10s bar the F-16s. Plus their procurement speed is way faster than ours. You do the maths.

Regardless we are inducting way better aircraft at a decent pace. We are inducting a much larger array of force multipliers as well.

PAF has to cater to 2 borders now. The Indo Pak border against IA and IAF and the coastline against IN.

 

[blueblood]

Regardless we are inducting way better aircraft at a decent pace. We are inducting a much larger array of force multipliers as well.

PAF has to cater to 2 borders now. The Indo Pak border against IA and IAF and the coastline against IN.

Hence the term "outnumbered" not outgunned. Number still count a lot mate.

Nope, just one. The only thing worth saving in their entire coastline is Karachi and it is easily accessible by IAF aircraft. Why risk a CBG when you have Mig 29s from Gujarat and MKIs from Pune which can do the same.

 

[p2prada]

There are no Mig-29s in Gujarat. IN is needed for a blockade. A squadron of jets cannot do the same.

As was in 1971, PAF today will be hard pressed to protect naval assets from the air.

Btw, Karachi provides Pakistan 70% of the revenue generated. A naval blockade of the port will cripple Pak.

 

[Iamanidiot]

Hence the term "outnumbered" not outgunned. Number still count a lot mate.

Nope, just one. The only thing worth saving in their entire coastline is Karachi and it is easily accessible by IAF aircraft. Why risk a CBG when you have Mig 29s from Gujarat and MKIs from Pune which can do the same.

Actually the Pakistanis have lot of strings attached to their F-16's they cannot be used in the event of a war .We do not know the present of their other jets

 

[blueblood]

There are no Mig-29s in Gujarat. IN is needed for a blockade. A squadron of jets cannot do the same.

As was in 1971, PAF today will be hard pressed to protect naval assets from the air.

Btw, Karachi provides Pakistan 70% of the revenue generated. A naval blockade of the port will cripple Pak.

Both Mig 29s and MKIs are/will be stationed in Gujarat.

1971 - INS Vikrant was used in the eastern front for blockade of Dhaka not Karachi. A couple of destroyers and frigates will be more than enough.

IIRC, there are 2 sqd sanctioned for the defence of Karachi. That shouldn't be a problem for IAF.

 

[blueblood]

they cannot be used in the event of a war

Or else what? Unkil sam will hit the mythical "kill switch" or bomb the crap outta Pakis for using a machine for doing exactly what it was supposed to do.

How stupid do you think Pakis are when they ordered more F-16s couple of years back even after being sanctioned in 99?

 

[Iamanidiot]

Or else what? Unkil sam will hit the mythical "kill switch" or bomb the crap outta Pakis for using a machine for doing exactly what it was supposed to do.

How stupid do you think Pakis are when they ordered more F-16s couple of years back even after being sanctioned in 99?

The entire Pakistani F-16 fleet is maintained by USAF technical personnel who watch over the inventory ,spare parts and even the logs on the ground.The Americans are not known for free lunches there is a lot of literature lying around the net regarding this please read it.By the way the Americans for the love of us they are doing this to prevent F-16 ToT from falling in Chinese hands add to that they kept a clause that they cannot be used in a Indo-China conflict

 

[nimo_cn]

p2prada, what open source are you talking about? How exactly ahead of PLAAF is IAF?

You are overestimating the ability of your arsenal which you built back in the 1990s, yes they made a strong IAF then, that is why I admitted IAF had advantage. But now as China is gaining the capablity of building indigenous planes, India is simply losing it.

Let me give you a hint, the best planes in IAF are still Russia-built, but now China stops importing Russian toys. It is not that Russia refuses to deal with China, instead it is China is getting disenchanted. Buying Russian planes is always an available option, but PLAAF shows no sign of going for that, meaning they believe Russian planes are not worth it.

Chinese defence industry is far ahead of their Indian counterpart, just look at the inventory of both sides, 90% of Indian weapons are imported, whereas 90% of Chinese weapons are domestically manufactured. The reason we are stoping buying Russian airfighters and refused a proposal by Russians to joint-develop a 5G plane is because we are capable of building our own.

In my opinion, Rafale or Typhoon , it is just the last straw for India, which will not change the fate of IAF being left behind in the long turn. As long as India is relying on foreign weapons, China has an upper-hand in this race.

Let me reiterated what has been said again and again by Chinese policy-makers, military modernization is not something you can buy with money.

 

[Iamanidiot]

p2prada, what open source are you talking about? How exactly ahead of PLAAF is IAF?

You are overestimating the ability of your arsenal which you built back in the 1990s, yes they made a strong IAF then, that is why I admitted IAF had advantage. But now as China is gaining the capablity of building indigenous planes, India is simply losing it.

Let me give you a hint, the best planes in IAF are still Russia-built, but now China stops importing Russian toys. It is not that Russia refuses to deal with China, instead it is China is getting disenchanted. Buying Russian planes is always an available option, but PLAAF shows no sign of going for that, meaning they believe Russian planes are not worth it.

Chinese defence industry is far ahead of their Indian counterpart, just look at the inventory of both sides, 90% of Indian weapons are imported, whereas 90% of Chinese weapons are domestically manufactured. The reason we are stoping buying Russian airfighters and refused a proposal by Russians to joint-develop a 5G plane is because we are capable of building our own.

In my opinion, Rafale or Typhoon , it is just the last straw for India, which will not change the fate of IAF being left behind in the long turn. As long as India is relying on foreign weapons, China has an upper-hand in this race.

Let me reiterated what has been said again and again by Chinese policy-makers, military modernization is not something you can buy with money.

China was forced the indigenous path because of the sanctions post Tinnanmen which are still in force when it comes to weapons.Armand has given us a good picture of the state of PLAAF and the aerospace industry

 

[blueblood]

The entire Pakistani F-16 fleet is maintained by USAF technical personnel who watch over the inventory ,spare parts and even the logs on the ground.The Americans are not known for free lunches there is a lot of literature lying around the net regarding this please read it.By the way the Americans for the love of us they are doing this to prevent F-16 ToT from falling in Chinese hands add to that they kept a clause that they cannot be used in a Indo-China conflict

First, I never said anything about Pakis using F-16s in Indo-China conflict. The probability of Indo-Pak confrontation is much much higher than Sino-Indian confrontation.

Please provide links for Americans maintaining F-16s for pak in 2000s.

Both the new and MLU F-16s are subject to Pakistan's compliance with security restrictions that
demand a separate base and 24/7 U.S. security coverage at a cost of more than $25 million.

2009: F-16s come with strings attached | Pakistan-Papers | DAWN.COM

All it says that they will be monitored for illegal technology transfers.

The package for Pakistan's new F-16s also includes:

7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP or F110-GE-129 IPE engines (F100-PW-229 EEP selected)
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft's sides to give them extra range
36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; see tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems
36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW) Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM

This is the amount of arms Pak bought for it's F-16s. 500 amraams are not exactly for shooting down TTP jets.

 

[Iamanidiot]

@Blueblood If you check more carefully they are clauses about in case of a conflict with India and amraams are zilch if they are not used.The Air fighter are quite useless in case of an Sino-India conflict

 

[blueblood]

@Blueblood If you check more carefully they are clauses about in case of a conflict with India and amraams are zilch if they are not used.The Air fighter are quite useless in case of an Sino-India conflict

Following a history that includes three wars and numerous military engagements with New Delhi, the Pakistan
military's doctrine and tactics primarily have been designed for a territorial war with India. To counteract India's
overwhelming superiority, Pakistan developed both its aviation and strategic/nuclear programs. Initially, the F-16
program was viewed only in the Indian context. The escalation of Indo-Pak tensions following the Mumbai attacks
demonstrated to the Pakistanis that the threat from India still exists. The Pakistani F-16 program, however, will be
no match for India's proposed purchase of F-18 or equivalent aircraft.

This is only paragraph in entire page where India has been mentioned.

So, my friend please tell me that why these beggars spent over $5 billion for a toy with which they can't play?

I have yet to see a link which tells us that the yanks are still maintaining their F-16s.

 

[Iamanidiot]

The Hindu : News : Behind the Pakistan F-16 deal, a tale of many wheels

http://news.oneindia.in/2010/06/14/usf-16s-to-pak-come-with-a-no-use-against-india-infuture.html

 

[blueblood]

Again, pardon my ignorance but will you be kind enough to spoon feed me the exact para which says that F-16s are maintained by USAF personnel as of today because last time I checked Pak kicked out every US military official. Thanks.

OTOH, your links contradicted your claims of F-16s being useless against India (kill switch) when US clearly want Pakis to use F-16s against India to prevent a nuclear war.

The diplomatic cables, accessed by The Hindu through WikiLeaks, suggested that the purpose of the sale was to divert Pakistan's attention from "the nuclear option," and give it "time and space to employ a conventional reaction" in the event of a conflict with India (151227: confidential).

 

[nrj]

It only takes couple of calls from secretary of POTUS to ground the PAF F16s or keep them flying even under sanctions.

 

[J20!]

There is no RAM on J-11B, wouldn't make a difference on a 25m^2 RCS. There is no proof China can even make RAM.

I love it when you make up stats... It just makes my day. The basic Su27SK (J11A) airframe has an RCS of 15m^2, look it up. So it really does your credibility the world of good when you shoot out figures like 25m^2, coz then the J11B would have to be a bomber. The J11B, has a reduced RCS of 3m^2. AGAIN LOOK IT UP.

Advanced aviation material industry is practically non-existent in China so whatever is imported can't be massed produced. The composite usage won't change much

.
The JF17/FC1 block 1, a 20million dollar low cost fighter, incorporates 8% of composite materials, I dont see how frontline PLAAF fighters could be afforded NO composites at all. How does a country so backwards that it has no aviation materials industry, manage to make sure a fighter as cheap as 20 million, which its own airforce does not operate, has almost 10% composite materials ratio?

J10B surface composites:

Different intakes will have a minimal affect on RCS, degrades engine performance in the trade-off.

WS-10A produces less thrust than the AL-31FN as well as leaking oil and cracking blades.

Well that says a lot about your actual technical knowledge on aerodynamics and radar return. I'm sure the F35 uses DSI's as well just for kicks. The whole point of a forum is to share and discuss information, not display your bittterness by DELIBERATELY spreading disinformation.
The AL-31FN produces 28100lbf and the WS10A produces close to 30000lbf, LOOK IT UP! If that's less thrust to you, I cant help you. We've had this discussion just 2 days ago, stop being a mule. Your "leaking oil and cracking blades" engine was the WS10, which was abandoned almost a decade ago, the J10B, J11B and J2002 all use the WS10A and its derivatives.

IRST should have been put on the A model. It has taken that long to clone the obsolete Flanker OLS-27

.
"A Chinese infra-red search and track (IRST) system developed by the Sichuan Changhong Electric Appliance Corporation, the Type Hongguang-I (Rainbow Light-I) Electro-Optical Radar (虹光-Ⅰ型光电雷达), is integrated with the J-10. It is a third generation optronics system utilising a HgCdTe focal array with imaging infra-red (ImIR) capability. Receiving its certification on 3 March 2005 and subsequently entering service with the PLAAF, the system was revealed to the public one year later at a conference on the Sichuan province of China, during which the system was demonstrated to visiting officials. Based on the limited information released, Type Hongguang-I has a maximum range of 75 km.
Although the Type Hongguang-I was designed to be lighter and more compact than similar Russian systems so that it could be fitted in the nose of J-10 while leaving enough space for a suitable radar, the current production model J-10 does not have enough space and must carry a podded version externally on one of the aircraft's hardpoints."

Instead of posting what you wish was true, post actual facts that you actualy LOOKED UP from verifiable sources. Dont be pathetic, OLS-27 indeed

J-10A is on par with an early block 5 F-16. J-10B would move it up to block 20

.
Link please? A verifiable one at that. Something you didn't pick up in a forum, because I'm sure no one is quoting your "facts" on Russian forums.

J-10A flies with a Russian radar.

The J10A flies with the KLJ 10 pulse doppler, of which a simplified version - the KLJ 7 - is derived and used on the JF17. Please LOOK IT UP. You just trolling now, and its more pathetic than usual.
"In November 2007 the PAF and PAC conducted flight evaluation of the pre-production aircraft fitted with a variant of the NRIET KLJ-10 radar, designed and built by China's Nanjing Research Institute for Electronic Technology (NRIET), and the LETRI SD-10 active radar homing AAM."

 

[Armand2REP]

China was forced the indigenous path because of the sanctions post Tinnanmen which are still in force when it comes to weapons.Armand has given us a good picture of the state of PLAAF and the aerospace industry

People have to remember that the West doesn't develop projects in a bubble. That is alot of cross border sharing and exchange of ideas. China is cut off from that with all countries but Russia, and they have been reluctant to share the last couple years. On a single basis China's R&D budget looks good, but it is nothing compared to the value per dollar intellectual exchange brings in the West. One of the big reasons China's military development lags so far behind their commercial is due in large part by the bubble military R&D has been forced into.

 

[J20!]

Nimo. It is open source knowledge that IAF is presently way ahead as compared to PLAAF or PAF. The JF-17 and J-10A are both said to be at the same levels as a F-16Block 20. The radar on both the dragons are only comparable to early F-16 versions and perhaps as good as the Kyopo M. It's nowhere close to the Bars, RBE-2 or Captor let alone the more modern designs. Other than radar there are plenty of other electronics unavailable on the J-10.

I hope you realise that you're saying that the KLJ 10 is inferior to the radar carried by this:

And that you're saying that the J10A defeated flankers with ratios of 13:1 with said radar (which if you haven't realised by now is almost impossible seeing as the J10A doesnt have an onboard IRST to guide it against the flanker's (according to you and Armand) "superior radar").

As well as the well reported multiple radar locks on Vietnamese flankers in SCS skirmishes.


And again, the RBE2 and Bars are both PESA's and are as a result quite superior to the KLJ10 which is a pulse dopple. The RBE2 is superior even the captor.... But I'm sure the J10B's PESA/AESA will remedy that.

Air to ground capability is literally non existent as of today. The best A2G fighter in China is still the Su-30MK imported from Russia

*rolls eyes* This is a forum, if you need info, ask and those who has the info will assist, no need for guessing. Even the J10A is equiped for PRECISION A2G strikes. It can carry a variety of PGM including the LT2 laser guided series pictured here:

And in this video in case Armand (predictably) claims its PSed:


One more thing, the best A2G platform in PLAAF and PLANAF inventories would be between the H6 strategic bomber and the JH7 flying leopard, which both carry a larger payload than the SuMKK or any Su27 variant for that matter.

 

[Armand2REP]

And in this video in case Armand (predictably) claims its PSed:

That video exemplifies the lack of A2G capability of the PLAAF. The bomb drop was recorded from the ground with the J-10 dropping at very low level flight. The altitude range of their LGBs is measured in thousands of feet rather than tens of thousands for Western LGBs. You get that close to the ground and you are subject to getting shot down by something as rudimentary as MANPADS.