Pakistan's Ideology and Identity crisis

[Vinod2070]

Pakistan is reaping what it sowed for decades. They have done the most to give a bad name to everything they claim to represent.

While I hate the loss of civilian lives, they are just getting the dose of their own medicine. Many "innocent" civilians also gave financial and other help in the rise of these Jihadis that have turned loose of them and the Pakistanis can't figure out even now what is happening.

This "nazaryati riyasat" has proved to be totally blind to the implications of its own actions!

 

[nitesh]

The Hindu News Update Service

"Pakistan is just such a fragile entity," Rice said on Sunday in response to a question at Jewish Primary Day School in Washington after delivering the Yitzhak Rabin Memorial Lecture. She was responding to a question on the current situation in Pakistan, which Rice said has now moved on to a "daily management problem."

Rice, who had played a crucial role in defusing the tension between India and Pakistan after the Mumbai terrorist attacks, said: "You know, having been carved as it was, essentially, out of India, its identity has always been a problem and its always -- not always, but some elements in Pakistan find their identity through extremism and through extreme anti-India sentiment.

 

[vijaytripoli]

Peshawar suicide attack on military convoy kills five

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-c...t-sources-hs-02

PESHAWAR: At least five people have been killed in a suicide attack on a Frontier Corps convoy in Peshawar.

Twenty-five people including nine security men have also been wounded in the attack that occurred near Bara Qadim police checkpost on the border between Peshawar and the Khyber Agency.

According to police, the suicide attacker rammed his car into a vehicle of the security convoy near a police checkpost. The checkpost and two vehicles were destroyed in the blast.

Nine of the injured are security men, four from the Frontier Corps, three from the Frontier Constabulary and two are policemen.

The injured were taken to Lady Reading Hospital.

Police say about 200 kilograms of explosives was used in the blast that created a huge crater.

 

[Su-47]

Hey, Pakistan wanted Jihadis, and now they are getting Jihadis. All, these while they were raising cobras, without realising that cobras are as dangerous to the breeder as to an enemy.

I just feel sorry for the common Pakistanis who just wanted to live a peaceful life like the rest of us. Unfortunately, like in all wars, it is the innocent who suffer the most.

 

[johnee]

Hey, Pakistan wanted Jihadis, and now they are getting Jihadis. All, these while they were raising cobras, without realising that cobras are as dangerous to the breeder as to an enemy.

I just feel sorry for the common Pakistanis who just wanted to live a peaceful life like the rest of us. Unfortunately, like in all wars, it is the innocent who suffer the most.

Are you sure that common Pakistanis wanted just peace? What was the definition of 'peace' to them? Do the present generation of Pakistanis want peace? Again what is their definition of 'peace'?
This thread is created exactly to discuss these questions.

My take on this issue:
The common Pakistanis who supported the creation of Pakistan and later migrated to it, primarily wanted a nation that was Islamic. It was Islam that they desired and not peace or prosperity. They perhaps assumed that Islamisation would automatically ensure both peace, and prosperity. Many Pakistanis in past had supported MORE ISLAMISATION of Pakistan in this hope. Many more continue to do so.
The common Pakistanis wanted ISLAMIC NATION. Today common Pakistanis want Islam(more specifically their brand of Islam) to be implemented across Pakistan. That is exactly the reason for increase in sectarian violence in Pakistan. Alternate forms of Islam have been branded as UNislamic by the state with the support from common folks. This kind of mind-set has given rise to many different forces. So, common Pakistanis are directly responsible for creating forces that are disrupting peace.

 

[Yusuf]

Common men everywhere want to live in peace anywhere in the world. They have nothing to do with the politics of everything involved.
Its prudent not to assume that a common lay Pakistani wants to be entangled in an unending hostility towards India.
They are stuck in a country ruled by the army which doesnt want peace and they being loyal citizens of that country are forced to toe that line.

 

[jackprince]

Common men everywhere want to live in peace anywhere in the world. They have nothing to do with the politics of everything involved.
Its prudent not to assume that a common lay Pakistani wants to be entangled in an unending hostility towards India.
They are stuck in a country ruled by the army which doesnt want peace and they being loyal citizens of that country are forced to toe that line.

sorry, yusuf, i beg to differ. common man do care when it comes to war or hatred against enemy nation. True, it is very much provoked by political leadership, but it is also readily accepted by people due to bitterness toward the enemy. Why, ask the common people - the actual common people, not educated ones who can recite philosophy and morality - you will find in India over 70% of people hate (hate, not dislike) Pakistan. this hatred is culmination of provocation by leadership, personal prejudice, memory of wars and betrayals - and often just because.

 

[Yusuf]

Give me any data that might be there that 70% of the people hate Pakistan. You and I hate it as we have the time in the world to care about geopolitical issues. Sit on the internet read up and sit on DFI. Others who have to worry about their next meal probably wont.

Not to say that their are no India baiters there, but to assume that each and everyman there in Pakistan wants eternal hostility against India is probably not accurate.

 

[jackprince]

yusuf, i dont hate pakistan - i dislike it, hate its political leadership and pity its people. That's because I know the issues, have time to think and can distinguish between SOB leaders, PA and common citizen. But those who don't have time to learn them and distinguish between them, hate them; coz they have been taught to do so as their parents hated them, media showed them kargil war and media in general villifie pakistan whenever there's an opening. Common Indians don't bother to distinguish Pakistanis in different interest groups, but common Indian are with advent of tech. and media aware of enmity between two countries. So they hate them. It's simple, only us who take time to distinguish may not hate all of them outright.

For eg. every local friend of mine hate Pakistanis. Some of them don't trust muslim in general. they fall in less educated scale.

In university there were some who didn't hate Pakistan, and tried to distinguish the parties.

In internet only a few, if anyone outright hate all pakistanis.

i don't have any statistical data, but my personal experience. So you are free not to accept this, but IMO its the fact.

 

[nitesh]

a must read:

edmontonsun.com - Opinion/Comment - Pakistan basically Taliban state

 

[johnee]

@Yusuf,
Generally, one country's policy towards another nation will be determined by the thinktanks basing on geopolitical situations. But the relation between India and Pakistan is unique. Pakistan has been carved out of India. Most Pakistanis and Indians carried baggage of partition with them which they pass on to their younger generations. Further, Pakistanis had to justify the existance of their nation. They do it on the fact that India is Unsecular. Even today, Pakistanis profess a love for the minorities of India, they try to portray that India is unsafe for muslims. This goes against India. Therefore, the inherent positions of Indians and Pakistanis are contradicting. Both cant be right. This is the root of struggle, not Kashmir.
Most Indians are passive haters of Pakistan and most Pakistanis are passive haters of India. They may not pursue it passionately, but the passive hatred and dislike exists. This has been further fueled by reports of one country trying to destabilise the other. Most Indians believe that Pakistan is trying to destabilize India and similarly, most Pakistanis believe that India is destabilising Pakistan.
Common Indians support the development(Bijili, sadak, pani, naukari) because they believe that will make their life comfortable, take the nation forward....etc.
Common Pakistans support and sypathise with taliban( and wahhabism) because they think that will make their life more comfortable and take their nation forward.
Common people form the nation's pshyche passively. India's outlook to the world is formed by common man, even those who work for their next meal. The same is true with Pakistan. Common Man in India and Pakistan is inexticably linked with one nation's outlook towards the other.

 

[nitesh]

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

The liberal and secular ethos is limited to a tiny minority. Most Pakistanis are not only beholden to religion in a big way but are intrinsically opposed to western style democracy and especially the freedoms that come with it

The fight against Taliban is at this time primarily a fight by the Pakistani state to enforce law and bring order to its territory. As such, all citizens of the country and those that wish Pakistan well must support the army in this effort to restore the ‘writ’ of the state. But that is not all this is about.

First what it is not about. It is not about the US or the drone attacks. It is not about India and Kashmir. It is not about the Taliban fighting the US and NATO forces in Afghanistan. And it is definitely not about the Bilderberg Group.

Many in the English language media within the country as well as in the foreign media maintain that the fight against the Taliban in Pakistan is somehow a fight between the forces of liberalism and democracy against the forces of religious extremism and a theocratic impulse. This is entirely wrong.

The forces of liberalism, democracy and secularism lost the fight sixty years ago when the Objectives Resolution was passed by the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan. Since then, at best these forces have a fought a losing battle against the Islamisation of Pakistan. Today, Pakistan is firmly and without argument an Islamic state with a constitution that clearly and unambiguously states that no laws can be repugnant to Islam.

What Pakistan has seen since the death of Mohammad Ali Jinnah in 1948 is essentially a fight between competing visions of piety. For the first twenty years of its existence, Pakistan was under the sway of a ‘kinder and gentler’ version of Islamic practice as envisioned by the Sufi influenced Hanafi-Barelvi majority of the country.

Once General Zia-ul Haq took over and the Afghan war started, the religious centre of the country rapidly shifted under official patronage towards the more austere and extreme Wahhabi-Deobandi interpretation of Islam. The Taliban are a product of that interpretation and find support within the country from those that adhere to that vision of Islam even outside the border areas.

Even today, it was only after the religiously conservative political forces led by the PMLN and the organisations belonging to the Hanafi-Barelvi school came out against the Taliban that the Pakistan Army agreed to embark on a major offensive against the Taliban. I sincerely hope that this action is successful in restoring the rule of law in the disputed areas in Swat and eventually even in the western borderlands.

However, there are a couple of important points that must be considered. First is the fact that any military action within the boundaries of the country is going to produce considerable hardship, including casualties among non-combatant citizens. This is already happening and if it continues over a long period of time, public opinion is going to start turning against this military action.

As such, it is best to remember the famous quote attributed to General William Tecumseh Sherman: “war is hell”. The present military action in Swat, and if in the near future it is also extended to other areas in Pakistan where the Taliban are a significant presence, will lead to much death and destruction. It is therefore important for both the civilian and the military leadership to be frank and open about this, and warn the people about what to expect. Platitudes about a quick and painless victory will be self-defeating.

The second point worth considering is that for the army to succeed, it needs the full support of the people. This can only happen if the religiously inclined people of Pakistan that oppose Taliban-style Islam are willing to come out openly and forcefully in support of the army. This, however, will have its own set of consequences.

Once the non-Taliban types are fully mobilised, what we will see is not necessarily a victory of secular democratic forces but rather of the Islamic ideation of a different mindset; but still very much Islamic and perhaps even equally extreme in its own way. I do not believe that Pakistan is headed towards an Iranian-style theocracy but we might not end up too far from it either.

Let us not forget that we came pretty close to having the Fifteenth Amendment to the Constitution (The Sharia Bill) just ten years ago, and the political party that wanted to pass it is, according to many, poised to take control of Pakistan come the next general elections. If that party does come to power in a few years and if the present military action has indeed spawned another lurch towards religious extremism, all bets are off as to what might happen next.

Why am I so pessimistic? Well, many in Pakistan will consider the scenario I present as a good thing. However much noise the chattering classes, the literati and the glitterati might make, the liberal and secular ethos is limited to a tiny minority. Most Pakistanis are not only beholden to religion in a big way but are intrinsically opposed to western style democracy and especially the freedoms that come with it.

My pessimism is compounded by my interaction with young people, many of whom have come through ‘English medium’ schools and colleges and are quite willing to go the West to pursue further education or even migrate for good. Yet few if any of them are able to identify the Islamic ‘fiqh’ (system of belief) they belong to and are entirely devoid of any knowledge about Sufism.

We have lost our young to a monolithic and extreme vision of Islam through neglect and inadequate education about the glorious diversity within Islam. It is now time to pay the piper.

[email protected]

 

[nitesh]

Global View: Pakistan's Existential Challenge - WSJ.com

About Iran, Henry Kissinger once asked whether the Islamic Republic was a country or a cause. About Pakistan, the question is whether it's a country or merely a space. Mr. Kissinger's point was that if Iran were a country like France or India, its bid to acquire nuclear weapons wouldn't pose an apocalyptic threat: It would merely be seeking the bomb in pursuit of rational, and limited, national interests, like prestige and self-defense. But if Iran is a cause -- the cause being world-wide radical Islamic revolution -- then there's no telling where its ambitions end.

The world has a tough time dealing with cause countries, no matter if the causes are bad (Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia), good (the U.S.), or somewhere in between (colonial Britain and France). Even more difficult is knowing what to do about countries that are really just spaces, wholly or partly ungoverned.

Today, Somalia is a space not even pretending to be a country. The result is destitution, piracy and a sanctuary for Islamic jihadists, but little by way of ideas for how to change things. Historically Afghanistan has always been a space, defined mostly by its power to repel: The Obama administration would be smart to take this into account by keeping its expectations for nation-building low. Whether post-invasion Iraq is a country or a space remains a question, though it seems to be leaning in the former direction.

As for Pakistan, we're about to find out.

The world took note last month when a Taliban advance brought it to within 60 miles of Islamabad. But that offensive was less intrinsically distressing than the seeming nonchalance with which Pakistan's rulers, current and former, surrendered sovereignty to Islamic extremists, first in the tribal hinterlands and then in the Swat Valley.

What kind of state simply accepts that its judicial and political writ doesn't actually run to its internationally recognized boundaries? Three cases are typical.

One is a weak state that lacks the capacity to enforce its law and ensure domestic tranquility -- think of Congo. Another is an ethnic patchwork state that knows well enough not to bend restive or potentially restive minorities to its will -- that would be present-day Lebanon. A third is a canny state that seeks to advance strategic aims by feigning powerlessness while deliberately ceding control to proxies -- the Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat.

Pakistan's odd distinction is that it fits all three descriptions at once. It is politically weak, ethnically riven, and a master of plausible deniability -- an art it has practiced not only toward India, Afghanistan and the U.S. with its support for various "freedom fighting" groups but also, in the matter of the CIA drone attacks, toward its own people.

The roots of Pakistan's problems go to its nature as a state. What is Pakistan? Even now, nearly 62 years after its founding, the best answer is "not India": As with the Palestinians, Pakistani identity is defined negatively. What else is Pakistan? As with Iran, it is an Islamic Republic: Punjabis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Balochis, Sindhis and so on are only really knitted together in their state as Muslims.

No wonder the Pakistani army has been so reluctant to redeploy the bulk of its forces to the western front: To do so betrays Pakistan's entire reason for being. Tellingly, the army only went on the offensive this month after the Taliban took aim at an army convoy. Odds are roughly even that another "truce" will be agreed by the government just as soon as the Taliban draws appropriate conclusions and reserves its violence for clean-shaven men, independent-minded females and other enemies of God.

Of course the "Islamic" state that Pakistani founder Muhammad Ali Jinnah foresaw wasn't quite what the Taliban have in mind. "You will find," he said in 1947, "that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because this is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State."

That vision still appeals to a majority of Pakistanis, who have repeatedly defeated radical religious parties at the polls. But rejecting clerical politics is not quite the same thing as accepting secular ideals. It's also hard to sustain republican hopes when the practical results -- in the persons of former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and current President Asif Ali Zardari -- have been so consistently dismaying.

We live in an age dominated by immodest ideas of personal, national or ideological destiny, to which Pakistan has not been immune. It might consider more modest aims, like simple countryhood. And since the threat it now faces is existential, let's put the point existentially: The alternative to that kind of being is nothingness.

Write to [email protected]

 

[rock45]

Pakistan expanding its nuclear capability

Hope I have this in the correct thread I found this troubling after reading it. Too many of these weapons made already we don't need more.

Pakistan expanding its nuclear capability
By Robert Windrem
msnbc.com contributor
updated 6:10 a.m. ET, Tues., May 12, 2009

On the dusty plain 110 miles southwest of Islamabad, not far from an area controlled by the Taliban, two large new structures are rising, structures that in light of Pakistan’s internal troubles must be considered ominous for the stability of South Asia and, for that matter, the world.

Without any public U.S. reproach, Pakistan is building two of the developing world’s largest plutonium production reactors, which experts say could lead to improvements in the quantity and quality of the country’s nuclear arsenal, now estimated at 60 to 80 weapons.

What makes the project even more threatening is that it is unique.

Full story
Pakistan expanding its nuclear capability - Pakistan - msnbc.com

 

[LETHALFORCE]

aren't the Chinese also involved in this project?? This is why NPT treaty and NSG and IAEA are all useless organizations, This is the perfect time for USA and India, Israel to come in and permanently neutralize pakistan.

 

[nitesh]

Here is the problem still they consider terrorism (talibunnies) as threat:

News Releases - IRI Releases Survey of Pakistan Public Opinion

 

[johnee]

If anyone wants to see the classic bakiness in display , here it is.

This baki guy was showing a North Indian about this baki website.The website is called pakistanigirls.org .Many bakis in various forums will post pictures from this website at a drop of a hat to show how TFTA they are from us SDREs . When i checked it, it contains pictures of actresses from Telugu Movie Industry with fake names like 'Zunaira'. My Punjabi friend was dumfounded when i told him that the 'baki' picture he is looking at is a South Indian actress.

Check out the 7th page of this website and you will find pictures of Anushka and Poonam with fake baki name

 

[johnee]

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Pakistan conflict map

Research by the BBC Urdu's service into the growing strength of Taleban militants in north western Pakistan shows that only 38% of the area remains under full government control.

If you remember that Balochistan is also disputed and then look at the map showing taliban controlled areas, then you will see that almost half of pakistan is in trouble. Also, usually BBC shows POK as a pakistani area, in this map it hasnt done that. Time to act, perhaps.

 

[johnee]

Pakistani's are getting Paranoid.

Reverse Paranoia: Pakistan Suspects World is Plotting to Make it Happy The Mystic’s Muses

According to a recent research carried out by “Helmholtz Health” – a prominent and respected research institute of Germany – there has been found an alarming escalation in the number of Pakistanis suffering from a unique and strange mental illness called Reverse Paranoia.

Termed in the scientific circles as RPS or Reverse Paranoiac Syndrome, from which 73% of Pakistan’s 160 million citizens (excluding the foreign terrorists and their foreign targets it proudly hosts) are suffering

various prominent scholars and leaders of the South Asian Nuclear Country opined that the primary cause of such an alarming growth of RPS in Pakistan could be its unconscious mental reaction to the pressure of constantly being blamed for whatever may or may not go wrong in any corner

The statement of a prominent opposition leader “Wadera Kursi Bachao Yaro” from interior Sindh, Paksitan hereby is interesting who claims that the majority of such Reverse Paranoiac Pakistanis are members of the Ruling Coalition of Pakistan.

The Jawa Report: Confirmed: Pakistani Populace Mostly Stupid, Paranoid, Evil Or Some Combination of the Three

Pakistan's Consipiracy theories:

a recent poll conducted in Pakistan of 3,500 adult men and women by the International Republican Institute, a nonprofit group based in Washington that is affiliated with the Republican Party and promotes democracy abroad

A Grand Conspiracy Theory From Pakistan - The Lede Blog - NYTimes.com

Paranoid Public.(Testimony of paranoid baki)

Yesterday I happened to visit a relative, and I saw 7 bags of flour in their store room. I was amazed at the scene. Upon inquiry, I learned. that the family has accumulated the bags from different sources, and was questing more. The lady of the house told me that they are amassing the flour because “Phir Milay Na Milay”. Can we call this family hoarders?

I didn’t switch-on my television set on last Sunday, which was 10th of Muharrum, just because didn’t have the guts to hear the news of any suicide attack or bomb blast at the Ashoura occasion. Thankfully, the sensitive weekend passed without any bad news, perhaps because of the stringent security measures or perhaps the suicide bombers were ill, who knows?

When I write the blog posts, or when I do other work on the computer, my concentration remains more on the fear of a sudden fluctuation or disappearance of electricity, than my work, and the “Control+S” has become my most used key. O, yes I know Firefox could recover it if I type there, or MS Word could recover it, or there is Auto Save in Word, you see how much I know?

Few more related links:

I am not certain, I am in my senses now. I am patting myself on the back, as I have grown up a full blown paranoid, or am I schizophrenic? Where is my suckster jacket?

A paranoid, abhorrent obsession | Jahane Rumi


Pakistani Police proves Delhi’s role in terror on Lahore. Impact

US perceptions of Pakistani ?paranoia? vs. India?s ?Cold Start strategy? threats - World Politics - Zimbio

 

[nitesh]

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Survival without military & mullah

When after the last-minute rejection of the Cabinet Mission Plan by Pundit Nehru (that plan was to keep India together with a centre administering only defence, foreign affairs and communications) partition became inevitable, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Muslim and a greater exponent of India’s unity, stuck to his conviction that it was ‘one of the greatest frauds on the people to suggest that religious affinity can unite areas which are geographically, economically, linguistically and culturally different. It is true that Islam sought to establish a society which transcends racial, linguistic, economic and political frontiers. History has however proved that after the first few decades or at the most after the first century, Islam was not able to unite all the Muslim countries on the basis of Islam alone.’

However in the present situation of insurgency in vast swathes and ethnic discontent and religious strife all over, Azad’s view that a common religion alone does not make a viable state has since won many adherents. If it were to be so, the military would not have been in action as it is now in Malakand division and was in Balochistan more than once. Nor would there have been recurring martial laws and sectarian mayhem.

For national cohesion Pakistan’s successive civil and military regimes have relied, besides the bond of Islam, on passion for Kashmir, hatred of India, friendship with China, aid from America and, when the chips are down, on the armed forces. All these props are now falling apart. The Islamic sentiment, in the current conflict, is being invoked by the Barelvi group in support of the armed forces and by the Deobandis to justify militancy.