Pakistan's Ideology and Identity crisis

[Vinod2070]

^^ I think Pakistanis are too confused about their identity and it is an unsolvable quest for them to find one.

It is pathetic to see them running helter skelter in search of an elusive Islamic identity. They search for that identity in ant straw they can clutch at, be it Mahathir Mohammed of Malaysia "standing up" to the West, Turkey, Saudis, Arabs, their former invaders from Afghanistan or other central Asian countires anywhere but within their own country!

Jinnah had no idea what he was unleashing when he created his Pakistan. He got the title, what next?

 

[Su-47]

I am not so sure. I guess it refers to the image of India in minds of Pakistanis as a land of Banias (traders) who can't fight. Pakistanis still enjoy this without remembering what happened just 6 years later. Even in 1965, it was an even match by all accounts just 3 years after the 1962 debacle.

Could be. I can't see. My hindi is very por, so by default, my urdu is also very poor!

Well, I don't use the term as a derogatory term. Pak is a short form for Pakistan and Paki can be considered a short form for Pakistanis. Its not necessarily a racist term.

I don't see why we should be so overly sensitive to what someone may construe form some word. I do see that you feel it is an offensive word but I didn't use it as one.

However, let me also check with other members of the admin team on this.

Trust me, Pakistanis do find it insulting. I have been on a Pakistani forum before, and they find it very insulting. Its a term used deragatorily by some racists before. You might not have meant it in a bad way vinod, but all the same, it is considered offensive, so its better to avoid using it. You can use the short form pak, for pakistan, but don't use the word Paki.

 

[Vinod2070]

Could be. I can't see. My hindi is very por, so by default, my urdu is also very poor!

BTW, this was Punjabi. So it does tell me that your Punjabi is not up to scratch either. :blum3:

Trust me, Pakistanis do find it insulting. I have been on a Pakistani forum before, and they find it very insulting. Its a term used deragatorily by some racists before. You might not have meant it in a bad way vinod, but all the same, it is considered offensive, so its better to avoid using it. You can use the short form pak, for pakistan, but don't use the word Paki.

I got your point. We will come with a consistent policy on this shortly.

 

[Vinod2070]

NEIGHBOURHOOD WATCH

Has Af-Pak strategy led to civil war in Pakistan?

SHAUN GREGORY



It is a measure of the intensity of US pressure that the Pakistan army appears finally to have begun serious counter-insurgency operations in the tribal areas of Pakistan. This is part of the overall US Af-Pak strategy of containing the Taliban and related militancy to the Pashtun areas, which straddle the Afghan-Pakistan border. The US intent is to weaken the Taliban and allied militants to the point they can be contained, at least temporarily, by the Afghan and Pakistan militaries respectively, allowing the US to scale down its regional presence to one of minimal support for counter-insurgency and the conduct of the ongoing battle against al-Qaida. If this can ever be achieved, it will be called victory.

On the Afghan side, strategy-implementation is led by the US forces and nuanced by the linkages between the US, NATO and the estimated 500,000 foreign nationals working in civilian nation-building roles. On the Pakistan side the US is at one remove, seeking to implement strategy through the brute tool of the Pakistan army.

In the Rah-e-Haq 4 operations that are unfolding in the districts of Buner, Dir and Swat, and in similar operations that occurred earlier in Bajaur, it is possible to see the way in which the Pakistan army is seeking to subvert American intentions in the continued pursuit of its own interests. A useful point of departure to understand this is the Pakistan army’s operations in Bajaur, which began in September 2008 in the wake of the Islamabad Marriott bombing. Fearful of significant combat losses, and worried about the loyalty of its soldiers, the army used air strikes, helicopter gunships and artillery to pound militant positions and flatten towns and villages. When this phase of the conflict was over in late February 2009, the regional commander, Major General Tariq Khan, flew journalists to observe the piles of rubble that had once been the homes of the people of Bajaur. Khan claimed that the Taliban were defeated in Bajaur and that the whole of the FATA would be back in the hands of the Pakistan state by the end of 2009. Three months later, these claims are exposed as hubris. The Taliban are back in de facto control of most of what remains of Bajaur. To assert state control over the whole of the FATA in the next seven months now seems unlikely.

The unfolding operations bear hallmarks of the Bajaur operation. The use of air strikes, helicopter gunships and artillery again form the centrepiece and the price is being paid by the peoples of these districts. Most estimates suggest that more than two million people may be internally displaced from Pakistan’s tribal areas.

One element of the strategy, however, appears different. The Pakistan army has reportedly airlifted troops into the Peochar valley in order to surround the Pakistan Taliban Tehreek-e-Nafaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammedi (TNSM) leadership of Maulvi Fazlullah. If confirmed, and if Fazlullah and his commanders are not spirited away, this will mark a stepchange in Pakistan army operations. It will also expose the myth of the army’s inability to move against militants. In theory, no force on earth could have better counterinsurgency credentials than the Pakistan army, which for decades has trained, supported and sometimes fought alongside militants. Nor can the Pakistan army’s claim to be under-resourced be seen as anything other than an appeal to Washington for more funding.

So, making sense of what is taking place in Pakistan’s tribal areas requires revisiting the fundamentals. There is, as yet, no move against the Afghan Taliban on the Pakistan side of the border, no increase in useable intelligence about the Afghan Taliban being provided to the US or NATO, and no reduction of pressure on NATO supply lines through Pakistan. There is also no move against the Haqqani or Hekmatyar networks, nor against the core of militants and terrorists in the FATA, particularly in North and South Waziristan. Bajaur was flattened and much of its population driven out, but Bajaur has not been held or brought under the writ of the Pakistan state.

Moreover, following Bajaur and earlier operations in the FATA, the army cannot have been unaware of the humanitarian refugee catastrophe, which would result from the failure to properly prepare for the deluge. Is it too cynical to suggest that the army has forced the refugee crisis knowing (as in Sri Lanka) that there will be an international clamour to end the fighting?

The huge unknown, hanging over all these events, is the likely scale and nature of the backlash against the Pakistani state. If, as some believe, a powerful ‘Deobandi complex’ is now taking shape in Pakistan involving militants, religious movements, religious and conservative political parties, Islamist sympathizers, and perhaps some within the army and ISI, then the ‘Af-Pak’ strategy may be seen to have precipitated the first phase of a civil war in Pakistan.

The writer is a professor at the
Pakistan Security Research Unit,
University of Bradford

Article Window

 

[Vinod2070]

I found the article a good read.

Everyone claims that the PA is a professional army. I used to believe that BS. Not anymore!

Looking at how they have "fought" within the boundaries of their own country, using the most extreme weapons of war (and there is nothing new about it, they suppressed the Baloch using the same Western bought planes, tanks and arty), I am having second thoughts. I doubt PA has the temperament to be a disciplined professional force. Any army where religion is so strongly mixed into the fabric and where the loyalties are divided between faith and nation (even ethnicities) can't be professional!

So the PA has to use all these heavy weapons from a distance as the officers can't trust their man to fight a close range war, both because they have no stomach for it and also that they have divided loyalties.

 

[johnee]

A Candid admission from a Paks( well, you cant expect more honesty than that from a Pak anyway):


Some Candid Confessions By a Pakistani

Pakhtun refugees from Swat and Buner, hapless victims of a war between the Taliban and the Pakistani Army, are tragically being turned away by ethnic groups from entering Sindh. This rejection strikes deeply against the concept of a single nation united in adversity.

As for the Baloch, they deeply resent that the two nuclear test sites — now radioactive and out of bounds — are on their soil. Angry at being governed from Islamabad, many have taken up arms and demand that Punjab’s army get off their backs. Many schools in Balochistan refuse to fly the Pakistani flag, the national anthem is not sung, and black flags celebrate Pakistan’s independence day.

secret jihad by Islamic fighters protected by Pakistan’s nuclear weapons — backfired terribly in the arena of international opinion. More importantly, it created the hydra-headed militancy now haunting Pakistan.

So should we keep the bomb to protect militant groups? Surely it is time to realise that these means of conducting foreign policy are tantamount to suicide.

Another similar article by another Pak.....
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | How many bombs will deter?

Isn’t it an anomaly that we cannot manufacture a paper pin but take pride in declaring ourselves the seventh nuclear power in the world?

So, if guys are wondering why this sudden realisation from Paks, then here is your explanation....

It is time for Pakistan to become part of the current global move against nuclear weapons. India — which had thrust nuclearisation upon an initially unwilling Pakistan — is morally obliged to lead.(now, starts the equal-equal thing) Both must announce that they will not produce more fissile material to make yet more bombs. Both must drop insane plans to expand their nuclear arsenals. Eleven years ago a few Pakistanis and Indians had argued that the bomb would bring no security, no peace.

Notice, how there is a desperate attempt to club a rogue nation like Pakistan and India into the same bracket. But one thing never ceases to fascinate me, Why do these pakjabis assume that India's defence and nukes revolve around Pak. The Pakjabis must come to realise that India has a different set of security issues and whether Pak decides to giveup its nuke arsenal or not, India will simply not do anything of that kind. Me thinks that Pakjabi intelligensia(an oxymoron) has realised that they will be denuked soon by the Unkil Ob, so they are trying to do the equal equal on India.

 

[Pintu]

Their identity as a nation simply stands on Anti-Indian rhetoric and they are self-obsessed to equate themselves with us, I am not surprised by that , they are in this obsession mainly Pakistani Punjabi s (I'm sorry if I hurt any body) from the birth of Pakistan.

Regards

 

[p2prada]

I found the article a good read.

Everyone claims that the PA is a professional army. I used to believe that BS. Not anymore!

Do you remember the time when there was an attack on the police academy in Pak. After defeating the attackers, the Pak security forces were aimlessly shooting in the air. Does that show professionalism. They are merely trigger happy.

 

[johnee]

I found the article a good read.

Everyone claims that the PA is a professional army. I used to believe that BS. Not anymore!

Looking at how they have "fought" within the boundaries of their own country, using the most extreme weapons of war (and there is nothing new about it, they suppressed the Baloch using the same Western bought planes, tanks and arty), I am having second thoughts. I doubt PA has the temperament to be a disciplined professional force. Any army where religion is so strongly mixed into the fabric and where the loyalties are divided between faith and nation (even ethnicities) can't be professional!

So the PA has to use all these heavy weapons from a distance as the officers can't trust their man to fight a close range war, both because they have no stomach for it and also that they have divided loyalties.

Well said, PA is neither professional nor army(in strict sense). They are a bunch of goons who have usurped the power by creating a threat perception in the eyes of avg. abdul of Pakistan. EDIT: They have hardly ever won a war in their life time.. I would say taliban qualifies as soldiers more than PA goons.

 

[Daredevil]

Well said, PA is neither professional nor army(in strict sense). They are a bunch of goons who have usurped the power by creating a threat perception in the eyes of avg. abdul of Pakistan. They have hardly ever won a war in last 20yrs. I would say taliban qualifies as soldiers more than PA goons.

When did they win any war in their lifetime?.

 

[F-14]

they did only when they were part of the British indian army Lol

 

[Antimony]

Reply to Johnee/ Vinod

Well said, PA is neither professional nor army(in strict sense). They are a bunch of goons who have usurped the power by creating a threat perception in the eyes of avg. abdul of Pakistan. EDIT: They have hardly ever won a war in their life time.. I would say taliban qualifies as soldiers more than PA goons.

Gentlemen,

Lets not get carried away.

Much as I would like to believe that the PA is composed of weak kneed goons from whom a child can snatch candy, the greater probability is that they are a large and disciplined force, trained in the best British traditions.

This is a COIN operations, and they certainly do not have enough experience in that. Neither did the US, till recently. Our own experience in COIN has been built over decades of insurgency in Kashmir, Pun jab and the NE. The PA now is responding the way they would respond in a conventional war, that is how they were trained. They will find their bearings, once they are in this for the ong haul.

A bigger problem may be ideological orientation. Zia ruined them with Islamic doctrination, and that is probably a bigger challenge than lack of COIN capabilities, especially when they fight Muslim vs. Muslim.

In spite of that, don't think they will not put up a tough fight if they face us, especially since we still have not completed our doctrines by which we can mobilize troops at the borders faster than they can (Cold Start died a quiet death).

Yes, they will lose since we have bigger muscles, but do not make the mistake of underestimating them

 

[johnee]

ISI Col Aamir Mirza Baig + 3 ISI personnel died in the Lahore blast

Image with all the buildings labeled

BTW, it would be interesting to know which ISI officers did not report to duty on that day.

 

[Vinod2070]

Gentlemen,

Lets not get carried away.

Much as I would like to believe that the PA is composed of weak kneed goons from whom a child can snatch candy, the greater probability is that they are a large and disciplined force, trained in the best British traditions.

This is a COIN operations, and they certainly do not have enough experience in that. Neither did the US, till recently. Our own experience in COIN has been built over decades of insurgency in Kashmir, Pun jab and the NE. The PA now is responding the way they would respond in a conventional war, that is how they were trained. They will find their bearings, once they are in this for the ong haul.

A bigger problem may be ideological orientation. Zia ruined them with Islamic doctrination, and that is probably a bigger challenge than lack of COIN capabilities, especially when they fight Muslim vs. Muslim.

In spite of that, don't think they will not put up a tough fight if they face us, especially since we still have not completed our doctrines by which we can mobilize troops at the borders faster than they can (Cold Start died a quiet death).

Yes, they will lose since we have bigger muscles, but do not make the mistake of underestimating them

It was a bit of harmless fun.

PA will be much more motivated in war against India. That is for sure. But if we give a strong dose of "shock and awe", they will melt away like the Iraqi "elite" republican guards did in the gulf wars and the PA did in 1971 after massacring 3 million civilians and raping 200,000 Bangladeshi women.

 

[hit&run]

this is regarding professionalism of pakistain forces: Have some one seen video when one pakistani commando was pretending to be dead at the time of attack on sri lankan cricket team?

 

[johnee]

Gentlemen,

Lets not get carried away.

Much as I would like to believe that the PA is composed of weak kneed goons from whom a child can snatch candy, the greater probability is that they are a large and disciplined force, trained in the best British traditions.

This is a COIN operations, and they certainly do not have enough experience in that. Neither did the US, till recently. Our own experience in COIN has been built over decades of insurgency in Kashmir, Pun jab and the NE. The PA now is responding the way they would respond in a conventional war, that is how they were trained. They will find their bearings, once they are in this for the ong haul.

A bigger problem may be ideological orientation. Zia ruined them with Islamic doctrination, and that is probably a bigger challenge than lack of COIN capabilities, especially when they fight Muslim vs. Muslim.

In spite of that, don't think they will not put up a tough fight if they face us, especially since we still have not completed our doctrines by which we can mobilize troops at the borders faster than they can (Cold Start died a quiet death).

Yes, they will lose since we have bigger muscles, but do not make the mistake of underestimating them

Of course, if they were facing India then all the different power centres with in Pakistan would come together: Gernails, kernails, foot soldiers, talibuddies, sindhis, pashtuns........etc Everyone would take a united stand against the Kafir Yindoo Yindia. So, they would prove to be a challenging adversary. But at the first instance of a loss, all of them would be competing with each other to make the run ala 1971; perhaps they would take the easy route and fire a nuke. Their collective hatred would unite them but they dont have the professionalism.
PA has too long indulged in doing harakiri in India and grabbing power in Pakistan to be able to be known as Professional Army. That doesnt mean we underestimate them, but it just means that they dont get the respect and honour that any other professional soldier(even enemy soldier) would get.

 

[Daredevil]

Here comes another wave of conspiracy theories. Ahmed Quraishi and Zaid Hamid are two sides of a dimwitted coin.

 

[Antimony]

Reply to Johnee/ Vinod

It was a bit of harmless fun.

PA will be much more motivated in war against India. That is for sure. But if we give a strong dose of "shock and awe", they will melt away like the Iraqi "elite" republican guards did in the gulf wars and the PA did in 1971 after massacring 3 million civilians and raping 200,000 Bangladeshi women.

Of course, if they were facing India then all the different power centres with in Pakistan would come together: Gernails, kernails, foot soldiers, talibuddies, sindhis, pashtuns........etc Everyone would take a united stand against the Kafir Yindoo Yindia. So, they would prove to be a challenging adversary. But at the first instance of a loss, all of them would be competing with each other to make the run ala 1971; perhaps they would take the easy route and fire a nuke.

Leaving aside the fact that they are nuclear, and will resort to that if we do go and do significant damage, expect not only their army but also their citizenry to come at you with all those stashed AKs, Stinger and pitchforks. The Iraqi population was suffering under a brutal dictator, whicle the Pakistanis have been raised on a standard diet of hatred for India (to be honest, we have been tought to hate them too)

Current Indian Army doctrine therefore seems to focus not on dividing Pakistan but making just enough tactical gains to force Pakistan to the negotiating table. But even this doctrine does not seem to have been fully developed, and while Operation Parakram we saw them reaching their forward bases before we reached ours.

By the time a real conflict starts, Uncle, the commies and their mothers would be breathing down our necks

Their collective hatred would unite them but they dont have the professionalism. PA has too long indulged in doing harakiri in India and grabbing power in Pakistan to be able to be known as Professional Army. That doesnt mean we underestimate them, but it just means that they dont get the respect and honour that any other professional soldier(even enemy soldier) would get.

Harakiri in India? That's wrong usage of the word.

In some "other" forums I have seen some ex- PA/ PAF officers tamp down the jingos on their sides. All in all, I think the professionals on either side have a greater respect for their adversaries that us are ready to give credit for. Yes, that guy on the other side supports a state we hate. But he has sworn to protect his country and his fellow citizens with his life, unlike armchair worriers like us who post on forums to show our patriotism. That alone is worthy of respect.

You would still want them to die though

 

[Daredevil]

whicle the Pakistanis have been raised on a standard diet of hatred for India (to be honest, we have been tought to hate them too)

Please tell me, when were we taught to hate Pakistan/Pakistanis in our school text-books unlike our long-lost brothers across the border who seem to be doing just that.

Indians start to hate Pakistan due to their actions which can either be terrorism in Kashmir, back stabbing in Kargil, attack on Parliament, hijacking of plane, sheltering most-wanted criminals, attack on cities and what not. These are well known facts to Indians and I don't see any reason why any proud nationalistic Indian shouldn't be hating Pakistan if it doesn't change its wayward ways.

 

[nitesh]

Please read it in full:

Pakistan and the Bomb