Pakistan set to declare Gilgit-Baltistan as fifth province

[Hiranyaksha]

Why can't we conduct open PEST and SPELIT analysis to see for ourselves how situation may build up ?

 

[Screambowl]

Why can't we conduct open PEST and SPELIT analysis to see for ourselves how situation may build up ?

Time for analysis is gone.

Sent from my SM-T211 using Tapatalk

 

[Indx TechStyle]

And India has been failing in it. India has failed in containing china or blackmail china through diplomacy.

India has done much more than that any other country with <25% of China's Economy and far behind strategic appetite, could ever have done.
It never gave up either.

Direction is right but if you are expecting the Modi to correct a mistake made by previous regimes through decades in few months, leave your hopes.

I can't understand why Indians are so eager. Think of long term, you couldn't get that far away goal in a day but you are getting near every time.

Where as in your backyard, Chinese have planted CPI and Kanhayia and other separatists. How come they are able to find their diplomatic partners and lobby in India but India cant find it in China. Please do note this difference.

This is an old topic and discussed & why this forum played a role (little though) in pushing out UPA Regime out of power.

This problem lies in history mate, the blunder of 60s when pacifist Nehru ceased India from nuclear tests and later pushed India in Soviet block.

Coming to Pakistan, they dont understand the protocols. They are army ruled state and have robust foreign policy of muslim card and afghanistan. They have created a buffer zone between Indian army and Pak army which are known as tangos.

Every country has an army except Pakistan whose army itself has a country.

That's why India's way of engagement with Pakistan is quite distinct from way of engaging with Nepal or Sri Lanka.

And they are playing safe and unhurt.

Not really.

but in Kashmir If India builds a dam it is a matter of UN resolution.

Which idiot told you that?

Go and read Kashmir resolution & IwT instead of smoking paki weed.

Pakistanis shout doesn't necessarily mean that India violated any condition of Resolution or IWT was ever witnessed by any UN member.

See this is not tolerable. India is actually fooling itself in the hands of rules and responsible state. Indias first responsibility is to safeguard its interest.. hell with others.

Safeguarding interest?
Ya, it's more assertive than ever before, now what's the problem?

Thread has been created to discuss in light of recent developments about outright Chinese support for Pakistan

I'm talking about misleading title mate.

and India shifting towards US pole.

Temporary.

And hence explore whether later stated is happening or not, if yes then reasons and what is the way forward.

Don't think with a narrow PoV and focussing on only China's support to Pakistan.
Instead of directly shoving head at one issue, you can conncet the dots to get over.

There are so many other developments in world too which directly affect India and it's policy towards Neighnors & overseas.

Like my thread isn't revolving around only one country. It's about Indian Policy: everywhere.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ities-and-quest-for-great-power-status.77243/

Why I'm not posting on your thread?

I don't wanna waste time in arguing with Bornubus explaining things again & again.

 

[Hiranyaksha]

Like my thread isn't revolving around only one country. It's about Indian Policy: everywhere.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ities-and-quest-for-great-power-status.77243/

Really commendable work have you done. Why can't we seem to find any PEST analysis for the plethora of issues we are facing anywhere on this blog. Will it not be better if we start quantifying stuff and produce some meaningful model/s.

 

[Screambowl]

India has done much more than that any other country with <25% of China's Economy and far behind strategic appetite, could ever have done.
It never gave up either.

Direction is right but if you are expecting the Modi to correct a mistake made by previous regimes through decades in few months, leave your hopes.

I can't understand why Indians are so eager. Think of long term, you couldn't get that far away goal in a day but you are getting near every time.

I have already made a post that India lacks resources and proper management of them. India can do a just little more if the resources are managed correctly.
Those who are saying India should do this that etc I tell to them, we dont have money to counter both China and Pak. And only fools would say that India should do that alone. You need some assitance. And there the diplomacy has been either slow or failing.

This is an old topic and discussed & why this forum played a role (little though) in pushing out UPA Regime out of power.

This problem lies in history mate, the blunder of 60s when pacifist Nehru ceased India from nuclear tests and later pushed India in Soviet block.

And it was required but when they knew that the generation of 80s and 90s will form 60 percent of the population they would have immidiately taken steps. The soviet union remains no longer and communist china was already an enemy this was enough. These are past mistakes and I hope rectified now. Because more than outsider it is the insider becoming enemy of the statecraft.

Every country has an army except Pakistan whose army itself has a country.

That's why India's way of engagement with Pakistan is quite distinct from way of engaging with Nepal or Sri Lanka.

it is not distinct, it shows weakness. Pakistan is supported by muslims around the world there is no single doubt. And few supporters are in India. You can only talk with them thats all. Gone those days when Indian army could bash them anytime it wanted. But right now, Indian soldiers are killed on daily basis. Yes there is some conflict going on but balochistan is a dead issue because there is No Population. My problem is , Pakistan has been able to maintain military equillibrium with India.

Which idiot told you that?

Go and read Kashmir resolution & IwT instead of smoking paki weed.

Pakistanis shout doesn't necessarily mean that India violated any condition of Resolution or IWT was ever witnessed by any UN member.

the problem is not that , the problem is kashmir is bilateral issue. And Pakis are doing whatever they want in Kashmir, bringing China into Kashmir, POK. And the way India objects is a pussy cat cry.

The UN resolution is a white wash and nothing else.

Safeguarding interest?
Ya, it's more assertive than ever before, now what's the problem?

I again say pakistan has maintained conventional equillibrium with India and India is losing its men daily and has lost POK to Pak this is not in our interest.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

Gone those days when Indian army could bash them anytime it wanted. But right now, Indian soldiers are killed on daily basis. Yes there is some conflict going on but balochistan is a dead issue because there is No Population. My problem is , Pakistan has been able to maintain military equillibrium with India.

pakistan is much behind India in terms of millitary do you know Indian army was actually weaker than pakistani army of 1965 but now we can smash them and destroy them any time

 

[Screambowl]

pakistan is much behind India in terms of millitary do you know Indian army was actually weaker than pakistani army of 1965 but now we can smash them and destroy them any time

Now you are weak because you have some economy to safeguard.

And this is why I say, create buffer , create buffer, crate buffer and create buffer.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

I again say pakistan has maintained conventional equillibrium with India and India is losing its men daily and has lost POK to Pak this is not in our interest.

pakistan is nowhere near our millitary in sheer numbers and we are stronger than them in economic and technological front too.

 

[Screambowl]

pakistan is nowhere near our millitary in sheer numbers and we are stronger than them in economic and technological front too.

This means in a conflict you are more prone to loss than Pakistan. Because you have economy and other developments to lose.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

Now you are weak because you have some economy to safeguard.

And this is why I say, create buffer , create buffer, crate buffer and create buffer.

how could we create a buffer zone by giving khalistan

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

This means in a conflict you are more prone to loss than Pakistan. Because you have economy and other developments to lose.

it depends on the situation if we destroy pakistani nuclear launch stations and its nuclear missiles pakistanis are good as dead

 

[Screambowl]

how could we create a buffer zone by giving khalistan

Make Pakistan army busy in dealing with menance in POK. Than letting them making Indian army busy in Indian administered territory. Pak has successfully diverted IAs resource in COIN , CT ops which are defensive.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I have already made a post that India lacks resources and proper management of them. India can do a just little more if the resources are managed correctly.

India has been whatever could have been done in these resources. More provocation will just result a war which is not in our interest for now.
Let it be strong internally which it gets after every year passes.

Those who are saying India should do this that etc I tell to them, we dont have money to counter both China and Pak.

Pakistan isn't India's primary strategic concern either.
I have made so many posts about worst case scenario and most likely scenario, India's primary concern is to be in big league of big three (US, Russia & China). So that it doesn't have to bend under pressure of others.

And look at likely scenario, do you seriously think China will directly involve in a full scale Indo Paki war? Not at all, it's just for containing India.

And only fools would say that India should do that alone. You need some assitance. And there the diplomacy has been either slow or failing.

First put it in your mind that India is a strategically autonomous state. It won't discover any permanent partner (who has upper hand) to counter others.

Entire diplomacy has been for getting over a complete but temporary cover against PRC for a short period of time (LIKE INDIAN LOGISTICS AGREEMENT WITH US WAS BOTH SIDED), till India stands on own feet.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-great-power-status.77243/page-2#post-1235023

And it was required but when they knew that the generation of 80s and 90s will form 60 percent of the population they would have immidiately taken steps. The soviet union remains no longer and communist china was already an enemy this was enough. These are past mistakes and I hope rectified now. Because more than outsider it is the insider becoming enemy of the statecraft.

That's why being reformed. India must be going as a strategically autonomous but a ideologically grouped country.

Pragmatic with Democratic and Liberal countries with similar constitution like India, take their cover till you need in an exchange of an assurance that India too will cover them when they need us.

& Being sour with communist states. Ya, Russia too. They had to choose their long term partner to back their economy and they already got it.

Pakistan is supported by muslims around the world there is no single doubt.

Not really.

India is politically, financially & strategically far more heavier in gulf.
Pakistanis offer that they are Muslims, Indians invest there, Indians aid them and now even selling weapons to them.

Even India's next naval military base after Seychelles is going to be in gulf.

Gone those days when Indian army could bash them anytime it wanted. But right now, Indian soldiers are killed on daily basis.

Not really, if you have contact with some soldier's families, things were worse for Indian soldiers too in 80s & 90s.

Things have calmed down now.
Our boys are still martyred regularly and nobody is denying that but if you think we aren't doing this on other side, you never came back to India from Germany.

Yes there is some conflict going on but balochistan is a dead issue because there is No Population.

Whatever, breaking Balochistan out won't make any significant impact on their economy either unlike when we trimmed their 40% in 1971.
At best, it can neutralize their strategic location for which they are supported against India.

My problem is , Pakistan has been able to maintain military equillibrium with India.

Again not really but Indian military concentration is itself diverted at different places.

the problem is not that ,

Problem was that you were saying anybody can mediate us and solution was that I told you that it can't happen & why.

the problem is kashmir is bilateral issue. And Pakis are doing whatever they want in Kashmir, bringing China into Kashmir, POK.

Aren't we making dense infrastructure network, integration with mainland economy, military bases, R&D institutions or power plants?

And the way India objects is a pussy cat cry.

Similar comments I read on Pakistani forums over Indian Railways issue.

Seriously, one can give only statements in such cases when a large part of territory is held by another one.

How you guys want to respond if MEA Notification is a pussy cat response?

By waging a war immediately?:biggrin2:

The UN resolution is a white wash and nothing else.

Nor I brought it here, it's you.

I again say pakistan has maintained conventional equillibrium with India and

Totally false, they don't even have equilibrium with fraction of Indian Military which India deploys against them.

India is losing its men daily and

Those bloody jihadis too.
Examine from both sides sources.

has lost POK to Pak this is not in our interest.

Off course, it has but is blaming new government for it that they didn't wage a war immediately?

Stronger is the country (and out of UNSC), you have more chances to get sanctioned.

India today is at a stage that it can do immense damage but it fighting a war is a great opportunity for others for bringinig it down.

I bet, from UNSC to middle powers, everyone will stand with Pak against India just because India can do more damage.

This won't be any failure of diplomacy but wrong time of starting a war.
India is an intermediate stage which is still vulnerable.

Be what others do respect.
Here's from your post:

Now you are weak because you have some economy to safeguard.

Indian Economy is sizeable and growing at nice pace too. So, needs to be defended.

Because you will jump in a war with not some economy which you have to defend but with a large economy like US or China when you have enough to spend.

Second thing is of impression. You haven't made any strong decisions in past and today you suddenly declare a war

Kaun darega humse? Every country will come to mediate. Indian Economy & war machine is big but not invincible.

Be stronger, learn to make bold decision & involvement in major issues outside South Asia to demonstrate WHAT YOU CAN DO.

 

[Hiranyaksha]

At best, it can neutralize their strategic location for which they are supported against India.

Isn't that a good enough reason to deprive our enemy strategic advantage , through whatsoever capable means we have ?

 

[Screambowl]

Let it be strong internally which it gets after every year passes.

It is not possible in democracy where every one is free to say anything it wants. It creates unrest! And how cleverly Pakistan made GB a new province is commendable job. Where as due to internal freedom of haramkhori India is still trying to have some hold on it's citizen. Thanks to bastard leaders in Past.

Pakistan isn't India's primary strategic concern either.
I have made so many posts about worst case scenario and most likely scenario, India's primary concern is to be in big league of big three (US, Russia & China). So that it doesn't have to bend under pressure of others.

And look at likely scenario, do you seriously think China will directly involve in a full scale Indo Paki war? Not at all, it's just for containing India.

China has found it's friend who is enemy of India, what has India done so far in Vietnam? Or Mongolia? We are busy appeasing these haramkhor Lankans and Bangladeshi who just need a slap that behave or we will bang you.

To remain in Big three? Not even Lankans listen to us like the way Taiwan listens to Chinese.

Those bloody jihadis too.
Examine from both sides sources.

those jehadis are bushes not the root.

India today is at a stage that it can do immense damage but it fighting a war is a great opportunity for others for bringinig it down.

I bet, from UNSC to middle powers, everyone will stand with Pak against India just because India can do more damage.

No one vouches for some direct confrontation, I said create a buffer and keep PA engaged inside POK.. IA- MI knows how to handle but they are not given permission to carry out such ops, even limited ops as per the resources allocated. Because Indian leaders fear Pakistan. There is no possibility of any major conflict which our leaders have been fearing.

Just like Indian officers are out in the field make paki army officers to come out from their holes. This will reduce infiltration too.

 

[JaiRajputana]

Not that any of our governments was serious about POK anyway. This takes out the claim of J&K being independent. I'd rather fuel a separatist insurgency in Jammu, they should start demanding separation from J&K and be recognized as an Indian state by itself. Why should Jammu and Ladhakh suffer due to Mulla Kashmiris? We will then have the valley, sindhudesh, balochistan and FATA to look at. By this time, an independent Kashmir would be even more of a pipe than it is already.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Isn't that a good enough reason to deprive our enemy strategic advantage , through whatsoever capable means we have ?

It is but not that easy and rapid.

It is not possible in democracy where every one is free to say anything it wants. It creates unrest!

Not really, go through stable & more liberal Democracies than India.
As the time passes and people get higher income levels, they become moderate.

And how cleverly Pakistan made GB a new province is commendable job.

More commendable thing is that they didn't do it for 70 years!
Today even if done, that's for PRC. :biggrin2:
Pakistan is officially sold to China now and how much now it can do for well being for PoK people, we will see.

They lag behind Africa in socio economic indicators.

Where as due to internal freedom of haramkhori India is still trying to have some hold on it's citizen. Thanks to bastard leaders in Past.

Issue here is haramakhori is in minority but it is.
Nobody else but leaders of past are responsible who hadn't any long term plans & kept country's roles occupied at one point.

China has found it's friend who is enemy of India, what has India done so far in Vietnam? Or Mongolia? We are busy appeasing these haramkhor Lankans and Bangladeshi who just need a slap that behave or we will bang you.

Vietnam - Getting some debt & money for having weapons.
They also station Indian Satellite tracking stations, military bases in future.
Mongolia - Economically capable Mongolia grateful to India to station soldiers.

Though, you won't be getting loyal dog like Pakistan anywhere who is ready to explode itself for it's master.
One thing I agree.

To remain in Big three? Not even Lankans listen to us like the way Taiwan listens to Chinese.

Not listens when have to.choose one among China & India.

The world is much bigger than southern Asia where India hasn't to face China everywhere & that's why India's economic interests are taken care off there.

those jehadis are bushes not the root.

The root is comparatively big, can't be rotten by diplomacy but war.

Diplomatic isolation isn't some sort of magic tool as you guys assume as long as the country exists.

Other problem, you want root out of surface in one day again.

but they are not given permission to carry out such ops, even limited ops as per the resources allocated.

Oh, you must be some highly placed intellegence officer.
Show me the document.


The other way of asking, is there any non Sunni or wahabi left alive inside PoK to create unrest?

 

[Screambowl]

Not really, go through stable & more liberal Democracies than India.
As the time passes and people get higher income levels, they become moderate.

India is a country of tradition and civilisation. No matter how high the income group may reach, there will be conflict of values.

More commendable thing is that they didn't do it for 70 years!
Today even if done, that's for PRC. :biggrin2:
Pakistan is officially sold to China now and how much now it can do for well being for PoK people, we will see.

They lag behind Africa in socio economic indicators.

How does it matter, whether PRC is assisting or Pakistan is doing that alone. What alone matters is India has no assistance, no resources to counter it. Unless until they start giving slaps to Pakistan not directly but indirectly. And this should happen in POK. Otherwise no purpose solved.

The root is comparatively big, can't be rotten by diplomacy but war.

Not full fledged war. The only aim should be to bring out these goose out of there burrow and hunt them.

 

[Srinivas_K]

India is dealing with two faced Pakistan here.

On one side it exports terrorism all over the world and on the other side it cries about Kashmir at UN.

Regarding the proposal of making GB as fifth province. The situation is like Pakistan the land grabber has grabbed the land from India and waited for 70 years and is planning to register it on its name.

People of Kashmir wanted independence and they never said they want to join Pakistan. Pakistan too till now is saying they only support kashmir aspirations and so they kept the pak occupied Kashmir as a separate nation till now.

The sudden change in the policy only points to the fact that Pakistan is trying to ignore Kashmiri local aspirations and trying to sell Kashmir land and resources to china.

GB ,Pakistan occupied Kashmir belong to India and there is no compromise in this. We have border with Afghanistan and this region has great strategic importance for India. For almost 70 years India lost its trade and economic activity with central Asian nations and confined itself to a smaller role.

 

[Screambowl]

People of Kashmir wanted independence and they never said they want to join Pakistan. Pakistan too till now is saying they only support kashmir aspirations and so they kept the pak occupied Kashmir as a separate nation till now.

The term independence means independence from India not from Pakistan. Independent Kashmir is POK.

There is no Kashmiri left in Pakistani Occupied Kashmir, all are either Pathan or Punjabis. The same will be done to Kashmiris in Srinagar if it becomes independent Kashmir.