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amoy

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OBOR is not an organization, nor a binding pact. A road and a belt now hve become an all-in lump. So this time there also comes Argentine and Chilean prez. who're nowhere near the silk road.

Argentine prez. is going to endorse the delayed nuclear deal that his leftist predecessor made with China.

Some of them may really have something big for Chinese to get aboard, like Malaysian PM who has a financial hole in billions.

Both North and South Korea also sent reps to the conference. What they have in mind is to have a direct lobby conversation on the occasion.

There is no question of "joining" or not joinin. It's virtually a TALKING club for dim-sum parties. As for the US it can choose to either stay outside the forum, or influence from within.

That's all.
 
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Yup, and no one is even talking about it in terms of a de facto US sanction against India. They are sugarcoating it as 'trade policy' but in reality it is a strategic sanction. Indian companies have had to fire around 10k employees each. It has wreaked havoc in the domestic IT industry. In one sudden move there are 30k jobless people in Bangalore. If you make a facebook page for jobless engineers, you will get 30k likes instantly.
This is what happens when you work for others and do not develop your own industries and companies . All the grunt work is not needed so goodbye . This is how US does business even with its. own citizens, they use you then throw you out.


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We are fucked. We had 20 years to build a Silicon Valley, what we managed in those two decades was a Silicon Valley's retarded cousin that does the work the people in Palo Alto or San Jose do not want to do.
In spite of all the chest thumping, when it comes to geopolitics India has no leverage anywhere.

We could have placed ourselves strategically in the last two decades of peace so that when the tides shifted again, as they are shifting now, we would have been in a favorable position. We are going back to the 80s with unemployment, infighting and overall bad times.
This is a repeated pattern in Indian history.


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India' strengths are its market and population. We should deal with everyone based on that alone and not become a geopolitical chess-piece.
We should maintain our influence in our neighborhood in South Asia except Pakistan and look to increase that in South-East Asia and we should definitely sell weapons to Hanoi.
Do we make anything 100 percent indigenous that can be exported?


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You fear obor hurts Indian interests in pok and cant do anything. Then just attack posts of pakis and make it war like situation. Then occupy few posts of pakis. Tell them its disputed territory for them and belongs to India. Let be a little noise before obor meeting arrangements.

This send a message to usa en other nations that its important to negotiate with India for the successes of obor. Hence bring chins on to the table with India on cpec. Then India should just tell china see , china shouldn't involve in a war to back pakis, if India take over GB completely.

In such a case we will ensure ur trade root is safe else we will take over everything.

So stop being peace lovers and make some noise at pok posts. Let there be international noise to recognise India assertiveness that legitimise how failed dreame is chinese obor initiative .
Indian parliament was attacked and nothing happened . This is next to impossible for Indian go to to do.


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mendosa

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We are fucked. We had 20 years to build a Silicon Valley, what we managed in those two decades was a Silicon Valley's retarded cousin that does the work the people in Palo Alto or San Jose do not want to do.
In spite of all the chest thumping, when it comes to geopolitics India has no leverage anywhere.

We could have placed ourselves strategically in the last two decades of peace so that when the tides shifted again, as they are shifting now, we would have been in a favorable position. We are going back to the 80s with unemployment, infighting and overall bad times.
What does it mean to place ourselves strategically?

Industrially? I'm sure all the startup ideas which people in Silicon valley have thought of, could also have been thought of here, but technologies need the market base for them to be viable. The US has no shortage of electricity, so they can think of Tesla without worrying about electricity. We have a grid shortage.

Strategically placed in terms of national security? weapons? we were coming out of sanctions imposed on us during Kargil. So a whole decade was spent trying to get back on our feet. There's no way we could have positioned ourselves as manufacturers of weapons in this time (even today, with all the awakening, our idea of positioning is still 'buying 36 Rafale jets').

If we had acted too fast then they would have crippled our other strategic initiatives like the space mission. Already they killed so many scientists working on the Cryogenic engine.

At least we secured the space program first, used it to generate revenue and clout, increased our GDP with cheap code monkeys and now we are at a new crossroads. Note that China was no different, first they started with the sweatshop economy and made minor items, everyone used to laugh on them. The next generation got contracts for assembling electronic goods, still people made fun of them for not being able to make their own, their next generation is now making their own hardware and selling Xaiomi phones. This is how the timeline goes. 30 years ago some vague line in the communist party's manifesto would have said "China must become a leader in electronics" and they did. They even launched their first commercial plane this week and broke European monopoly.

What could we have differently? We had a handicap which could not be wished away.
 

Dovah

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What does it mean to place ourselves strategically?
Industrially? I'm sure all the startup ideas which people in Silicon valley have thought of, could also have been thought of here, but technologies need the market base for them to be viable. The US has no shortage of electricity, so they can think of Tesla without worrying about electricity. We have a grid shortage.
I will write this in context of tech. which is something I am familiar with.

You are correct in that to bootstrap something like SV we need infrastructure and market. However, I am not talking about the 70's when SV was originally conceived neither am I under the impression that India at any time in its history had the resources to pioneer something like this.
I am talking about the last decade, when we already had infrastructure in place in all major Tier-I cities. By 2005, Bangalore was already a major player in tech. IT parks and SEZ with stable enough infrastructure were already there and our service industry was running in full swing. That was the best possible time for us to make the next leap. In our complacency, we did nothing. Fast forward 3 years, 2008 recession hits, thousands of people are unemployed. That should have been a wake-up call that a service based industry totally dependent on the health of American economy is not the correct modal of growth for a developing nation like India. Recession passed, we did nothing. What was lacking was not infrastructure but intent.
Coming to markets, I will take cell phones as an example and 2008+ as the time period. India is one of the largest markets for cheap cell phones. Are there any decent Indian manufacturers in this space? Are there any industries in India that manufacture electronic components? How many non-frivolous patents do Indian researchers have in this area?
Now consider our unicorn startups, how many spaces have our unicorns explored? All our unicorns are either Amazon clones, Uber clones or Whatsapp clones. Others being a zillion "apps" in the food space.
Before Google came around in 1999 what was the market for targeted advertising? Market can be an excuse for traditional manufacturing industries but for tech. it is becoming less and less of an issue.
Our polity and culture of mediocrity has been myopic, we should have focused on education, research, foreign-investments and infrastructure instead of populism.

Strategically placed in terms of national security? weapons? we were coming out of sanctions imposed on us during Kargil. So a whole decade was spent trying to get back on our feet. There's no way we could have positioned ourselves as manufacturers of weapons in this time (even today, with all the awakening, our idea of positioning is still 'buying 36 Rafale jets').
Strategically in terms of alliances. Chinese plucked our neighbors from right under our nose one by one. Nepal, ffs is more pro-China now than it is pro-India. What is the status of our plan to corner China in SCS? What happened to our bid for UNSC?
Coming to the issue of equipment, it is understandable that we were denied a lot of technology post our nuclear tests in 74 and then in 98 but so was China. Our PSUs have consistently under delivered and there can be no excuse for that. Also, I am not familiar with any sanctions on us post Kargil. Can you point me to a source?

Note that Chinawas no different, first they started with the sweatshop economy and made minor items, everyone used to laugh on them. The next generation got contracts for assembling electronic goods, still people made fun of them for not being able to make their own, their next generation is now making their own hardware and selling Xaiomi phones. This is how the timeline goes.
Again, China is different because their growth modal was manufacturing. No one could take manufacturing way from them because manufacturing in U.S would have escalated the cost of products, neither the U.S government, nor the business owners were ready for that. This ensured a steady growth in industry without any hiccups.

. This is how the timeline goes. 30 years ago some vague line in the communist party's manifesto would have said "China must become a leader in electronics" and they did. They even launched their first commercial plane this week and broke European monopoly.
This is because they invested heavily in research. Chinese Universities are top class right now. What about ours?

What could we have differently? We had a handicap which could notbe wished away.
Focused more on education and research for one.

In any case, I am not predicting a doomsday scenario, just that there are lessons to be learnt and applied.
 

mendosa

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I will write this in context of tech. which is something I am familiar with.

You are correct in that to bootstrap something like SV we need infrastructure and market. However, I am not talking about the 70's when SV was originally conceived neither am I under the impression that India at any time in its history had the resources to pioneer something like this.
I am talking about the last decade, when we already had infrastructure in place in all major Tier-I cities. By 2005, Bangalore was already a major player in tech. IT parks and SEZ with stable enough infrastructure were already there and our service industry was running in full swing. That was the best possible time for us to make the next leap. In our complacency, we did nothing. Fast forward 3 years, 2008 recession hits, thousands of people are unemployed. That should have been a wake-up call that a service based industry totally dependent on the health of American economy is not the correct modal of growth for a developing nation like India. Recession passed, we did nothing. What was lacking was not infrastructure but intent.
Coming to markets, I will take cell phones as an example and 2008+ as the time period. India is one of the largest markets for cheap cell phones. Are there any decent Indian manufacturers in this space? Are there any industries in India that manufacture electronic components? How many non-frivolous patents do Indian researchers have in this area?
Now consider our unicorn startups, how many spaces have our unicorns explored? All our unicorns are either Amazon clones, Uber clones or Whatsapp clones. Others being a zillion "apps" in the food space.
Before Google came around in 1999 what was the market for targeted advertising? Market can be an excuse for traditional manufacturing industries but for tech. it is becoming less and less of an issue.
Our polity and culture of mediocrity has been myopic, we should have focused on education, research, foreign-investments and infrastructure instead of populism.



Strategically in terms of alliances. Chinese plucked our neighbors from right under our nose one by one. Nepal, ffs is more pro-China now than it is pro-India. What is the status of our plan to corner China in SCS? What happened to our bid for UNSC?
Coming to the issue of equipment, it is understandable that we were denied a lot of technology post our nuclear tests in 74 and then in 98 but so was China. Our PSUs have consistently under delivered and there can be no excuse for that. Also, I am not familiar with any sanctions on us post Kargil. Can you point me to a source?



Again, China is different because their growth modal was manufacturing. No one could take manufacturing way from them because manufacturing in U.S would have escalated the cost of products, neither the U.S government, nor the business owners were ready for that. This ensured a steady growth in industry without any hiccups.



This is because they invested heavily in research. Chinese Universities are top class right now. What about ours?



Focused more on education and research for one.

In any case, I am not predicting a doomsday scenario, just that there are lessons to be learnt and applied.
For Economy :

Most of the Indian IT MNCs do have their own research wings where they have their quantum computing projects, big data and all the 'buzz word' technologies, but it is not enough to generate mass employment. The high technology companies in the US generate a revenue of 200B and the NSA alone invests 80B. If India wants its R&D to thrive, there has to be a large government investment in projects like Natgrid. Hi-tech generates massive revenue but it does not generate massive number of jobs. For example, if tomorrow ISRO makes stealth paint for fighter jets, the profits from this investment will only be realized when we sell Tejas to foreign buyers. But the number of jobs created from this endeavor will still be minuscule because that is the cornerstone of 'skilled labor', it requires only a few people.

For Employment :

We need an industry where low quality semi-skilled people can find bulk employment and get livable wages comparable to the value they produce, for example, railways, road development, nationalized banks, (NOT MNREGA please!). Although it sounds depressing, but many people indeed are unskilled. The very nature of highly skilled jobs is that it requires less people (ISRO, DRDO), so investment in high technology R&D does not translate into large scale employment for the masses.

Our agrarian sector itself looks very promising if the farmer is given 'market intelligence'. Right now, they produce whatever their heart wants. If the government is able to judge global trends and tell the farmers to produce those crops, then our revenue and employment rates will increase. The high-tech sector suits tier-1 economies because their population is less. Someone sets up a Facebook somewhere, someone puts up a Ferrari plant and becomes a billionaire. We cannot do that here. We need low cost consumer products for the masses. Tata Tigor type of products.

All your other points are valid. We didn't take the electronics manufacturing industry seriously. I recently stumbled across a new company called RDP, started under the Make In India campaign. It is a Hyderabad based company, I wanted to buy a laptop, so I went to their website, but no address was mentioned, so I dropped an email, the response I got (1 week later) was with shoddy grammar. They are simply not taking it seriously. They think the tide of nationalism will offset their bad quality.

Citation for US sanctions against India :

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...protests-US-sanctions/articleshow/870311.cms?

https://books.google.co.in/books?id...TAhUIMo8KHXx5BecQ6AEIPTAE#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/13cel.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/139091.stm

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/missiles-wmds/more-indian-scientists-could-face-us-sanctions-2987/

There were more citations, I don't have them handy right now. They have sanctioned not just organizations and technologies involved in the Pokhran project, they have gone ahead and sanctioned even individual scientists who had worked on the project. They have also barred the export of rare earth elements like graphene, terbium and europium.

Another big problem on our hand is that China controls 97% of the world's deposits of rare earth elements. They can blackmail the global electronics industry with this single fact alone.
 
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raja696

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it's just a conference, where people get to talk a lot but get nothing done. it's not a scheme attempting to contain India, what is the fuss?
Well arrange Indo-tibet economic conference in India and ask dalai lama to invite china. Then you will understand what the fuss is all about.... scumbag china

I wish India declare non binding to one china policy and recognise free tibet.
 

PSYOP

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Well arrange Indo-tibet economic conference in India and ask dalai lama to invite china. Then you will understand what the fuss is all about.... scumbag china

I wish India declare non binding to one china policy and recognise free tibet.
Dalai Lamas was ethically insolvent and malevolent. History gets ignored in the West when it comes to the Dalai Lama, from both the left and right. The left fall over themselves to interpret everything he says, even when it’s inconsequential babble, as a mix of profound New Age and inscrutable Eastern pearls of astuteness, and world knows this.
 

mendosa

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Well arrange Indo-tibet economic conference in India and ask dalai lama to invite china. Then you will understand what the fuss is all about.... scumbag china

I wish India declare non binding to one china policy and recognise free tibet.
Doval had said that if there is a problem, we must admit it, no use denying it. And given the fact that China, US, Iran and even Russia has expressed their interest in the CPEC, I'd say now would be a good time to admit that there is a problem.

Russian involvement :

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...t-says-chinese-media/articleshow/57911614.cms

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/isis-...an-ties-cpec-china-taliban/story/1/14918.html

http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/pak-approved-russias-request-to-use-gwadar-port-chinese-media-1645614

Iran's involvement :

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ak-Economic-Corridor/articleshow/54462795.cms

The only way to counter this would be to invite China to construct a straight road from Tibet to Mumbai port (1500kms) and make the CPEC (2500kms) seem unviable. This has the added advantage of keeping Iran, US and Russia out of our backyard, and since the goods are passing through our territory we can inspect them and make sure that there is no war material being transported.

If the CPEC becomes a reality, there will be a constant Chinese Naval presence in the Arabian ocean and they will use CPEC to send military supplies.

Given the frantic parlays Modi has had with Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, it appears that the Indian establishment has been jolted by this harsh reality (fashionably late, as always).

The US has gone out of the way to undermine our strategic interests, and our calculations about the extent of US-Russia hostility have been proven wrong. Superpowers may fight with each other but they DO co-operate when it comes to the common goal of keeping rising powers down. India was of the opinion that a cornered Putin would be more desperate to sell military hardware and know how for cheap. Turns out, he squeezed us pretty good for the S400 deal. China squeezed us pretty well on the Masood Asar issue and the US has squeezed us on the CPEC issue. Pakistan is squeezing us in Kashmir. We have been turned into Sunny Leone's boobs. Everyone keeps squeezing us.

Tough days ahead for us. We have played 'nice' with the international community for far too long now. Time to show our war face.
 
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Krusty

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But Trump said he is pro-india. And he said he would be tough on china and call it a currency manipulator.
You mean trump lied.... :shock:
Trump just says ... words.. it doesn't mean much. He says it because he has to. Once he sees a camera random words just starts flowing out from his brain to his mouth with no filters or processing. India, Indonesia, Ireland, Iraq I can bet trump can't spot any of these countries in a world map. It's all the same to him. It isn't one offs. Goofing up has become a pattern for trump. Check this out for example


 

mendosa

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Trump just says ... words.. it doesn't mean much. He says it because he has to. Once he sees a camera random words just starts flowing out from his brain to his mouth with no filters or processing. India, Indonesia, Ireland, Iraq I can bet trump can't spot any of these countries in a world map. It's all the same to him. It isn't one offs. Goofing up has become a pattern for trump. Check this out for example


@Razor was being sarcastic.

It's a comic indictment of the lack of strategic thinking among Hindus who kept saying that Trump is pro-Hindu.
 

Screambowl

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India should simply be concerned with it's interest. And since we solve all issues with diplomacy, which means our diplomacy is excellent and robust then there should not be any problem in convincing nations?
 

mendosa

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India should simply be concerned with it's interest. And since we solve all issues with diplomacy, which means our diplomacy is excellent and robust then there should not be any problem in convincing nations?
Aaja bhai, teri hee kami thi..
 

Krusty

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@Razor was being sarcastic.

It's a comic indictment of the lack of strategic thinking among Hindus who kept saying that Trump is pro-Hindu.
Boy do I feel sheepish now . Defeated by @Razor 's sarcasm.

I don't think trump was ever pro Hindu. As usual dumb hindus majority interpreted trumps seemingly anti Muslim stance as pro Hindu. He isn't pro Hindu and never was. Hindu community displayed their usual colossal simple mindedness though.
 

PSYOP

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US is not pro- india, rather it always looks and in the past looked at their own national interests, the U-turn from US shows the subsequent example how national interests concerning to when we talk about US comes first, as their foreign policy is highly based on their country foreign policy regarding national interests and when these basic interests when they see that it may delivers high benefit and outcomes to their national interests they jumps in, recent U-turn from trump administration to show interest and join CPEC is one of them.
 

mendosa

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Boy do I feel sheepish now . Defeated by @Razor 's sarcasm.

I don't think trump was ever pro Hindu. As usual dumb hindus majority interpreted trumps seemingly anti Muslim stance as pro Hindu. He isn't pro Hindu and never was. Hindu community displayed their usual colossal simple mindedness though.
It's not that he made just anti-Muslim statements, but he went and wooed the Hindu American Foundation who hailed him. To be fair, Hillary would have been worse, so we are between a rock and a hard place.

Check this : https://www.hafsite.org/haf-welcomes-engaging-trump-administration-hindu-american-policy-concerns









The gloves are off now.
 

Krusty

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It's not that he made just anti-Muslim statements, but he went and wooed the Hindu American Foundation who hailed him. To be fair, Hillary would have been worse, so we are between a rock and a hard place.

Check this : https://www.hafsite.org/haf-welcomes-engaging-trump-administration-hindu-american-policy-concerns









The gloves are off now.
Well the problem is we judge a politician by the stunts he does just before the elections. That's plain stupidity. The first one yes he wanted Hindu votes only because Hillary started to woo American Muslims. And trump had no option other than to go after the American Hindu community.

IMG_3543.JPG
IMG_3542.JPG

IMG_3544.PNG



Hindus should have used their better judgement and research on trumps past. Ignorance and stupidity isn't even an excuse in any court of law. Hindus should have been wiser than to trust Trump. But we never are and this is just another example as to why we fail as a community despite having numbers.

But then again, as you said, it is a case of rock and a hard place. But hindus should have sided with trump knowing he won't do jack for Hindus and the only reason should have been that he was the lesser of the two evils.

The first pic you uploaded clearly demonstrates the common tactics of Politicians. The rest of the three displays nothing but Hindu stupidity
 
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