OBOR News & Developments

[shimshali]

What does this prove?

Are we comparing di€k$ now based calorific value of coal, is it?

These value comes into picture for comparison when both plants on comparison are running full capacity. And it is quite rare that power plants run at full capacity.

Even if there is deficit of calorific value, this factor nullified by the design of the plant.

As far as India is concerned, majority of new thermal power plants are super thermal plants with higher rate of efficiency than the older ones we had.

Last month alone two different super thermal plants with 500 and 650 MW have been inaugurated in their first phases.

But but but..,.. you guys said Pakistan electricity would be expensive if we build coal power plants. you guys first tell us that pakistan is going backwards by constructiong coal plants while you guys are doing the same. then you tell us it is very expensive the chinese are exploiting us and will sell us expensive coal based electricity whereas the per unit cost is lower than indian plants. then you guys when not having any proper replies say that this is not a dick measuring contest but brag about how we have constructed plants with 500 and 650 MW capacity.
sorry to burst your bubble but thar will produce electricity 660 MW from 3..8 million tons per anum and its capacity is gonna increase...

 

[ezsasa]

But but but..,.. you guys said Pakistan electricity would be expensive if we build coal power plants. you guys first tell us that pakistan is going backwards by constructiong coal plants while you guys are doing the same. then you tell us it is very expensive the chinese are exploiting us and will sell us expensive coal based electricity whereas the per unit cost is lower than indian plants. then you guys when not having any proper replies say that this is not a dick measuring contest but brag about how we have constructed plants with 500 and 650 MW capacity.
sorry to burst your bubble but thar will produce electricity 660 MW from 3..8 million tons per anum and its capacity is gonna increase...

Don't think you understood what people have been saying.. let me give them point wise...


1) the unit price comparison between India and Pakistan came from your TV shows not us. Go back a few pages you will find the video.

2) no , we are not saying Pakistan is going backwards by building coal power plants, we are saying you are getting a bad deal for the amount of money you are paying. Ultimately if you are a resident of Pakistan, you are paying for the bad deal and also you children will continue to pay the bad debt.

Chinese are dismantling their old power plants which are inefficient and assembling them in your country. Chinese themselves are building super efficient power plants in place of their old ones.

3) I am not bragging, inauguration of new power plants or expansion of older ones happens every quarter. This is quite routine here. The 500 and 650 MW I mentioned are built in place of old inefficient power plants, similar to what Chinese are doing in china hence got mentioned in my post. There is a plan to replace all old power plants which are nearing 25 years of age to be replaced with newer ones by 2030 in India.

If you have any technical doubts ask me, other wise bye bye..

 

[Kyubi]

Don't think you understood what people have been saying.. let me give them point wise...


1) the unit price comparison between India and Pakistan came from your TV shows not us. Go back a few pages you will find the video.

2) no , we are not saying Pakistan is going backwards by building coal power plants, we are saying you are getting a bad deal for the amount of money you are paying. Ultimately if you are a resident of Pakistan, you are paying for the bad deal and also you children will continue to pay the bad debt.

Chinese are dismantling their old power plants which are inefficient and assembling them in your country. Chinese themselves are building super efficient power plants in place of their old ones.

3) I am not bragging, inauguration of new power plants or expansion of older ones happens every quarter. This is quite routine here. The 500 and 650 MW I mentioned are built in place of old inefficient power plants, similar to what Chinese are doing in china hence got mentioned in my post. There is a plan to replace all old power plants which are nearing 25 years of age to be replaced with newer ones by 2030 in India.

If you have any technical doubts ask me, other wise bye bye..

the tone of this post is perfect which is what I expect from a veteran of this forum.. I wish we could have more inclusive discussion of the same instead of name calling.. We could think Pakistan as Porkistan, but still let us have the decency of calling out a country by it's rightful name.. We all are part of a growing network of netizens of this venerable forum. let us not get too cocky with our digital footprints..
Let's have a meaningful discussion and counter the gentleman across the border with facts and detailed discussion .. if he/she panders to stupidity and let's settle it with stoic silence. Jai Hind

Regards
Kyubi

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[HariPrasad-1]

View attachment 15065

this is the price of coal produced electricity for thar power plant

Thar Coal is better than the coal being exploited by many countries in the world as sulfur value of Thar Coal is 1.07 per cent heating value is 2770 Kcal/kg. Whereas, he compared that coal being mined in neighboring Gujarat, India has 6 per cent of sulfur and 2600 Kcal/kg heating value.

Do you want to say 2770 Kcal is good?

It is very bad and that will require very special CFBC technology to burn the coal else it will remain unburnt and went as waste with Ash. It is very doubtful that china has provided Pakistan with this technology. The coal in Gujarat has definitely better than 2700 K Cal but Gujarat plant uses CFBC technology to burn this coal along with lime and the SOX value is less than Half of the permissible limits so as Nox value. Pollution had never been the problem with this technology and unburnt value is also very low.

 

[shimshali]

Don't think you understood what people have been saying.. let me give them point wise...


1) the unit price comparison between India and Pakistan came from your TV shows not us. Go back a few pages you will find the video.

2) no , we are not saying Pakistan is going backwards by building coal power plants, we are saying you are getting a bad deal for the amount of money you are paying. Ultimately if you are a resident of Pakistan, you are paying for the bad deal and also you children will continue to pay the bad debt.

Chinese are dismantling their old power plants which are inefficient and assembling them in your country. Chinese themselves are building super efficient power plants in place of their old ones.

3) I am not bragging, inauguration of new power plants or expansion of older ones happens every quarter. This is quite routine here. The 500 and 650 MW I mentioned are built in place of old inefficient power plants, similar to what Chinese are doing in china hence got mentioned in my post. There is a plan to replace all old power plants which are nearing 25 years of age to be replaced with newer ones by 2030 in India.

If you have any technical doubts ask me, other wise bye bye..

Well the unit price increase is mainly due to 1)people stealing electricity 2)electricity lost due to poor grid infrastructure 3)using oil based power plants (not gas plants) and almost all of them have been tackled i am not saying it has been solved
how is the coal power project bad it will produce electricity cheaper as compared to india at around 2.25 indian rupees it is not a bad deal
secondly each province or Pakistan has different electricity prices some are extremely low like 1.50
regarding quaid e azam solar park The cost of electricity generated through this project for first year is 10.2 cent, second year 10 cent and 9.9 cent for third year.
the reason for the high tariffs is because of acute electricity shortage having high tariffs would bring more companies to invest in power generation

could you give me any proof of the coal plants being inefficient than the Indian one they produce cheap electricity use less amount and better quality for electricity generation.
we are also building dams, eg dasu dam, nelun jehlum, and dozens of other dams which will bring down the price of electricity. also it is planned to close down or convert them to LNG plants which would lower electricity prices such as Bhikki power plant tariff of 3.65 indian rupees
yes we admit that electricity is expensive in Pakistan but reject the notion in thread of it getting even more expensive.

the tone of this post is perfect which is what I expect from a veteran of this forum.. I wish we could have more inclusive discussion of the same instead of name calling.. We could think Pakistan as Porkistan, but still let us have the decency of calling out a country by it's rightful name.. We all are part of a growing network of netizens of this venerable forum. let us not get too cocky with our digital footprints..
Let's have a meaningful discussion and counter the gentleman across the border with facts and detailed discussion .. if he/she panders to stupidity and let's settle it with stoic silence. Jai Hind

Regards
Kyubi

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Yes i have seen that most people on this forum are very rude but i am happy to see people who can give logical and calm reply me.

 

[ezsasa]

Well the unit price increase is mainly due to 1)people stealing electricity 2)electricity lost due to poor grid infrastructure 3)using oil based power plants (not gas plants) and almost all of them have been tackled i am not saying it has been solved
how is the coal power project bad it will produce electricity cheaper as compared to india at around 2.25 indian rupees it is not a bad deal
secondly each province or Pakistan has different electricity prices some are extremely low like 1.50
regarding quaid e azam solar park The cost of electricity generated through this project for first year is 10.2 cent, second year 10 cent and 9.9 cent for third year.
the reason for the high tariffs is because of acute electricity shortage having high tariffs would bring more companies to invest in power generation

could you give me any proof of the coal plants being inefficient than the Indian one they produce cheap electricity use less amount and better quality for electricity generation.
we are also building dams, eg dasu dam, nelun jehlum, and dozens of other dams which will bring down the price of electricity. also it is planned to close down or convert them to LNG plants which would lower electricity prices such as Bhikki power plant tariff of 3.65 indian rupees
yes we admit that electricity is expensive in Pakistan but reject the notion in thread of it getting even more expensive.


Yes i have seen that most people on this forum are very rude but i am happy to see people who can give logical and calm reply me.

Most of numbers that we are quoting are coming from analysis similar to the link below, even the numbers this blog is quoting is based on a dawn article in 2015 which was released when the first map of CPEC was released.

http://usiblog.in/2017/02/some-snippets-on-cpec/


Regarding the efficiency bit. Argument is that when the power plants that are being dismantled in China are being put up here, the power plants are polluting there by inefficient. You have to remember none of the major components of power plant are being manufactured in Pakistan.

Even as of Jan 2017 china has issued orders to close 100 odd coal power plants.

More over the cost per gigawatt being shown Pakistani media is almost double than Indian costs for both coal and solar, the companies will recover the costs from some where.

Regarding the LNG conversion, i believe you are talking about furnace oil plants being converted to LNG. I remember distinctly that this decision was taken in the month LNG prices dropped. What will Ishaaq daar do when prices go up in future, he will shut down the plant again?

Let me also say, remove ishaaq daar and half of our economic problems will be solved .

I know I was not able to give much numbers, I somehow couldn't find the articles again. These were from early 2015.

 

[sob]

View attachment 15065

this is the price of coal produced electricity for thar power plant

Thar Coal is better than the coal being exploited by many countries in the world as sulfur value of Thar Coal is 1.07 per cent heating value is 2770 Kcal/kg. Whereas, he compared that coal being mined in neighboring Gujarat, India has 6 per cent of sulfur and 2600 Kcal/kg heating value.

First time I am hearing coal being mined in Gujarat.

Thar Coal is lignite, which is not good for thermal power plants.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Well the unit price increase is mainly due to 1)people stealing electricity 2)electricity lost due to poor grid infrastructure 3)using oil based power plants (not gas plants) and almost all of them have been tackled i am not saying it has been solved
how is the coal power project bad it will produce electricity cheaper as compared to india at around 2.25 indian rupees it is not a bad deal
secondly each province or Pakistan has different electricity prices some are extremely low like 1.50
regarding quaid e azam solar park The cost of electricity generated through this project for first year is 10.2 cent, second year 10 cent and 9.9 cent for third year.
the reason for the high tariffs is because of acute electricity shortage having high tariffs would bring more companies to invest in power generation

could you give me any proof of the coal plants being inefficient than the Indian one they produce cheap electricity use less amount and better quality for electricity generation.
we are also building dams, eg dasu dam, nelun jehlum, and dozens of other dams which will bring down the price of electricity. also it is planned to close down or convert them to LNG plants which would lower electricity prices such as Bhikki power plant tariff of 3.65 indian rupees
yes we admit that electricity is expensive in Pakistan but reject the notion in thread of it getting even more expensive.


Yes i have seen that most people on this forum are very rude but i am happy to see people who can give logical and calm reply me.

I heard an another discussion on pakistan media yesterday that UAE had gifted a power plant to Pakistan in 2008. Pakistan incurred a heavy expense in shipping that plant to Pakistan. It is lying rusted in some place and Pakistan could not be able to install the same because it was found that generation through this plant is very very costly. Panelists were discussing that why did you incurred so heavy expanses in bring the plant from UAE to pakistan then?

 

[HariPrasad-1]

First time I am hearing coal being mined in Gujarat.

Thar Coal is lignite, which is not good for thermal power plants.

Do you know that still Gujarat plants has operated between 85% to 90% of Plant load factor even with the poor calorific value of lignite? This has surprised many including the multinationals which supplies this sort of plants.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

secondly each province or Pakistan has different electricity prices some are extremely low like 1.50
regarding quaid e azam solar park The cost of electricity generated through this project for first year is 10.2 cent, second year 10 cent and 9.9 cent for third year.
the reason for the high tariffs is because of acute electricity shortage having high tariffs would bring more companies to invest in power generation

And India has struck an agreement to supply solar energy at Rs 2.97 i.e at a four and half cent. You are saying that it is supplied at 10 cent but I heard on Pakistani media discussion that it is 14 pkr per unit.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

View attachment 15065

this is the price of coal produced electricity for thar power plant

Thar Coal is better than the coal being exploited by many countries in the world as sulfur value of Thar Coal is 1.07 per cent heating value is 2770 Kcal/kg. Whereas, he compared that coal being mined in neighboring Gujarat, India has 6 per cent of sulfur and 2600 Kcal/kg heating value.

It is called Lignite and not coal. Even with this low calorific value lignite, GIPCL power plant has generated 85% to 90% plant load factor and this has surprised many including multinational companies like Alsthom.

 

[Mikesingh]

great article
let me summarise it as follows

China will get Pakistan into deep debt which it can't repay

so no problem uncle Chin will say never mind

just sign on this dotted line and dont worry about the fine prnt

it just gives china 50 years of rights to run the port and own the highway
which after all was built by china so china owns it

also china will request "small portions" of gilgit baltistan as a security measure

Here's more......

https://thewire.in/39874/the-china-...out-power-not-electricity-but-the-real-thing/

And by the way, these Pakis call Gwadar as the future MEGA OIL CITY on the lines of Dubai!!! Lol! But there's water water everywhere but not a drop to drink!! That's right. It's a parched desert!

The region is arid, with low rainfall and with no underground water, Gwadar city depends entirely on harvesting rain water. Meaning no rain, no water. And the climatic conditions are so bad that it hasn't rained for the past three years!!

However, some water can be diverted from the Mirani dam, some 200km away. But when and how are the water canals to be made? That would take the better part of a decade to complete and even that will not be enough!

This pic says it all!

'Mega oil city' like Dubai?? Oh yeah! Dream on!

 

[Indx TechStyle]

GO back to shitting in the streets if you undeveloped brain cant contribute to a logical answerr

The undeveloped brain who could file more than 45,000 IPR alone in 2016 has a completely different method of collecting data than land of pure who does surveys and not complete census.

AFAIK, Pakistani open defecation estimates by international organizations, (because Pakistan itself can't estimate it), varies from 17% to 42%.

Regarding India, it's from 8.3% to 35% by international orgs and 38% by India's own records because only notice in India is enough to get money.

Simply, let's not compare.

 

[Mikesingh]

View attachment 15065

this is the price of coal produced electricity for thar power plant

Thar Coal is better than the coal being exploited by many countries in the world as sulfur value of Thar Coal is 1.07 per cent heating value is 2770 Kcal/kg. Whereas, he compared that coal being mined in neighboring Gujarat, India has 6 per cent of sulfur and 2600 Kcal/kg heating value.

This is happening in Porkiland and YOU are paying for it! Lol!

You guys have gone so far down the rabbit hole that there's no salvation! You Porks are being screwed, and how!!!

 

[roma]

could you give me any proof of the coal plants being inefficient than the Indian one they produce cheap electricity use less amount and better quality for electricity generation.
we are also building dams, eg dasu dam, nelun jehlum, and dozens of other dams which will bring down the price of electricity.........

Yes i have seen that most people on this forum are very rude but i am happy to see people who can give logical and calm reply me.

You guys have gone so far down the rabbit hole that there's no salvation! You Porks are being screwed, and how!!!

firstly to @shimshali , thanks for acknowledging the good and polite folks on this forum and so ignore the rude ones use the ignore button if nec.

sir , Im not well versed in the technology of the coal plants which youve been discussing at length , but i would take the approach of the other post i have quoted herein

of course the prcchinese will give you some ( few ) things that work and perhaps even are of top level tech ( eg they gave you nukes ) but the overall plan is for prcchina to put pakistan into DEEP DEBTso in that even it doesnt really matter what got you there

they will crank that trade imbalance to such an extent and then offer you a way out that seems " cheap" in comparison to what you owe ....they'll ask for a few tracts of land that seem useless eg some rocky areas of shagsam valley which are dismissed as useless rocks but for prchina these are strategic ......plus Gwadar etc etc

perhaps nothing too big to arouse your anger and hatred of the masses but small bits and pieces which the common folk won't understand and easily agree with plus they will grease the palms of the intelligent to remains silent for a great price

but the bottom line is that in critical matters they would have a pakistan that can
never say NO to any critical matter that they will in the future want from you

THEY ARE GRADUALLY CREATING A PAKISTAN THAT CANNOT SAY NO to their critical demands

from an independent pot of view look at prcchina's dealing with ANY , yes ANY other country ....see if they have truly been equal ... ?

in the far majority of cases it is a horrific trade imbalance .....why would that leopard suddenly change spots ? why would its basic behaviour suddenly change , can it ? no they will basically always return to their basic behaviour which is to create trade, economic and power imbalances so that they have the upper hand they they offer to settle and they ask something of you , something permanent and get a toe hold in your economy and thus control you in a quiet way

in return sure they have to give some good stuff, it may include some coal plants, yes THEY will build schools in areas which have been looong abandoned by the gov of pak and they will even build state of the art HOSPITALS in areas which were abandoned etc etc - those are not the main issue so no prob for them

they açlready have pakistan in their pocket , unless .......you react now ....it may be too late, ....... the nation has been sold

 

[roma]

Actually to summarize it , the cpec has two or three objectives :-

(A) as a purely military corridor :-
...... in that sense it may enable prchina troops to move fast into the region ..... okay , granted , so india has to have a plan to counteract that , ... not a great fear there, especially if the Indian NAVY can offer credible response from the South China Sea area then it can be a tit for tat you do this to us we can respond ...eg nuclear subs with missile propulsion capabilities which IN already has but needs larger numbers ...plus useful to have docking and maintenance facilities in vietnam and tacit USA support

(B) as an economic venture : -
here it will give nice hopes to packland , but reality is that they are getting a small slice while going into very BIGTIME debt to prchina and will pay for it as described in my post above

(C) drawing neghbouring countries & others into china economic sphere:-
prcchina will use it for multipolar business opportunities including with india , if india can be persuaded to join ( highly doubtful )

on all three counts china seems to gain substantially ....and they are indeed an expert in that ...i.e. formulating "DEALS" where they come out seriously on top and make a fool of others , they have been doing that for decades and if pakistan think that they are an EXCEPTION to that rule , then the PRC china neese have already won more than half the battle

....with basically Pakistan footing pthe bill in return for an ILLUSION of economic progress but keep an eye on the balance sheet ........ it is the one telling the truth and not the hospitals and schools that prchina is building in Pakistan

so from prchinas point of view , why not and they need to keep their people employed while even their economy is slowing in growth
So prcchina will do their very best to hide the balance sheet and talk about other matters eg countering india, iron friend, cultural similarities (?) (huh ?) and whatever else, yeah fighting terrorism etc etc plus greasing the powerful few to get overwhelming advantages and the majority poor pakistanis are kept in the illusion that prc is their iron friend

make no mistake about it , ....at the beginning the cpec was a daunting idea and india was very concerned and yes there even might have been fear but as things are now progressing and unfolding , it becomes more evident who the sucker really is , i think there is a sense of relief in India and it might even be comic-relief

 

[roma]

@shimshali seems to me that youre a good sport , the kind of member we would really like to have from across the partition

you debate hard but fair ....that's great .... your posts are of good quality

....for me i love punjabi culture of the version from the pak side eg mujras on youtube are too beautiiful for words and the ladies are so energetic and talented

Hope india pakistan can avoid conflict .... two nations is the reality but continuous conflict is not really neessary and hope we can improve, share culture

i have to say a few words about cpec too otherwise this post could be considered as off topic

My position is that if cpec and other interferences from china could have been avoided then actually the LOC in kashmir should be converted into the international border ....i.e. india gives up claim to GB and pakistan gave up claim to J&K state

each country gets on with life

Punjabis and indeed all Pakistanis are a very powerful community and theyve got a big land mass and navy to command ,.so why spoil it by going to war with india .....same logic applies to india , why even lose one person in war

 

[sob]

@roma In continuation from your above post, I feel the only reason we have kept a claim open on GB and POK is to counter the Pakistani claim on J&K. This is nothing but a negotiating tool.
But as Mr.Shashi Tharoor states quite often: In India ,state has an Army, but in Pakistan, Army has the State.

 

[Mikesingh]

I just don't understand why the Pakis call the CPEC a 'game changer' that they think will make Pakistan a 'regional power' with a GDP of over 10% with an investment of just $47 billion which is peanuts compared to the $400 billion that India is investing in the four industrial corridors, construction for which has already begun and being fast tracked. That is 10 times the entire CPEC project!!!

And this is not aid or grant to Pakistan by the Chinese. It's Chinese money being invested that companies have borrowed from the Chinese Central Bank and other lending institutions. They need to pay back this amount and here is where Pak comes in! Payback time is when it's going to start hurting Pakis real bad!

As it is, Pakistan’s trade deficit ballooned by 38.8 per cent to an all-time high $23.385 billion during the first nine months of the current financial year. If this trend continues, deficit will reach $30bn by the end of June this year, which will be the highest-ever trade deficit in the country’s history.

There's more. Where the external balance of payments is concerned, Pakistan’s imports would soon exceed $50bn for the first time in its history!

Pakistan received only $14 billion remittances in the first nine months of the current fiscal year, down 2.3 per cent year-on-year.

Pak's ballooning external debt stood at $74,126 billion which is huge. Pak is falling fast into a debt trap it will never be able to get out of.

So in comes China to bail Pak out. How? By forcing Pak to barter away Gilgit, Baltistan, parts of mineral rich Balochistan and Gwadar City along with its port to China.

Hats off to the Chinese game plan for their deeper than ocean friends, Pakistan! Soon the whole of Pak will become another autonomous region of China like Tibet. The Pakis better start learning Mandarin fast and introduce it in schools from grade 1 or jobs would be hard to find in the Pak Autonomous Region of China!!

 

[ezsasa]

I just don't understand why the Pakis call the CPEC a 'game changer' that they think will make Pakistan a 'regional power' with a GDP of over 10% with an investment of just $47 billion which is peanuts compared to the $400 billion that India is investing in the four industrial corridors, construction for which has already begun and being fast tracked. That is 10 times the entire CPEC project!!!

And this is not aid or grant to Pakistan by the Chinese. It's Chinese money being invested that companies have borrowed from the Chinese Central Bank and other lending institutions. They need to pay back this amount and here is where Pak comes in! Payback time is when it's going to start hurting Pakis real bad!

As it is, Pakistan’s trade deficit ballooned by 38.8 per cent to an all-time high $23.385 billion during the first nine months of the current financial year. If this trend continues, deficit will reach $30bn by the end of June this year, which will be the highest-ever trade deficit in the country’s history.

There's more. Where the external balance of payments is concerned, Pakistan’s imports would soon exceed $50bn for the first time in its history!

Pakistan received only $14 billion remittances in the first nine months of the current fiscal year, down 2.3 per cent year-on-year.

Pak's ballooning external debt stood at $74,126 billion which is huge. Pak is falling fast into a debt trap it will never be able to get out of.

So in comes China to bail Pak out. How? By forcing Pak to barter away Gilgit, Baltistan, parts of mineral rich Balochistan and Gwadar City along with its port to China.

Hats off to the Chinese game plan for their deeper than ocean friends, Pakistan! Soon the whole of Pak will become another autonomous region of China like Tibet. The Pakis better start learning Mandarin fast and introduce it in schools from grade 1 or jobs would be hard to find in the Pak Autonomous Region of China!!

On the point of we spend more on industrial corridors Than pakis, we have to remember that their map is horizontally challenged and lesser mouths to feed.

One industrial corridor is sufficient for them, at best one more going on northern side( as per original CPEC line before Nawaz sharif changed it to pass they Punjab).