Flying Dagger
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Exactly and they'll be coming out of from different corners of China .
Multi Role Helicopters (MRH) to be inducted into Indian Navy
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sthf
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Good for them. People who want to buy iphong phones, Reebuk shoes and Gulsar bikes are free to do so. I'd rather have something that actually works.
WolfPack86
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Seahawks are coming.
Going by news reports, the Indian Navy is set to acquire 24 x MH60R Seahawk Anti-Submarine Helicopters at a probable cost of $109 million per helicopter – total cost about $2.616 billion. The cost includes accessories, spare parts, technical support and maintenance facilities. The Seahawks can be used both for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and for attacking surface vessels using hellfire missiles these helicopters are armed with. The media elaborates that despite the higher costs of these helicopters, they are tipped to be more value for money. For detecting submarines, these helicopters would be equipped with cutting edge sonar and radar. The radar would be capable of detecting submarines travelling on the surface or just below the surface. Considering that modern nuclear submarines travel just below the ocean surface to get rid of exhaust fumes, the radar will be especially effective. These helicopters are the naval version of US Army's Sikrosky UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter and can be used for search and rescue operations.
The US Seal Team Six had used UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters in the raid to kill Osama bin-Laden in Abbottabad on May 2, 2011. ASW involves using computers, sonar, and radar to search for submarines, which involves staring at a screen most of the time while manipulating the sensors and computers to detect and locate subs. Once you have a solid location fix, you can launch a torpedo and sink the enemy vessel. The MH-60R uses a sonar that operates in active (broadcasting) and passive (just listening) mode. The sonar system consists of dipping sonar and sonobuoys, which are dropped and communicate wirelessly. The dipping sonar is lowered into the water from the helicopter using an 806 meter (2,500 foot) cable and winch. The MH-60R is also equipped with a radar system for detecting subs on the surface or just beneath the surface. Modern non-nuclear subs often travel just beneath the surface with only the periscope or snorkel above water to provide air for the diesel engine and gets rid of the exhaust fumes. MH-60Rs can also perform SAR (search and rescue) work where, to obtain maximum airtime and carrying capacity, the sonar and all its associated electronics is quickly and temporarily removed. The MH-60 can hover low enough to deploy a line to people in the water and winch people aboard. Delivery of the Seahawk helicopters to the Navy is expected to within one year. In addition to the MH-60R Seahawks, India is also procuring 15 x CH-47F heavy transport helicopters from the US, some of which have begun arriving in the country. Also, 22 x AH-64E helicopter gunships will begin arriving later during 2019.
The US State Department in its notification on sale of 24 x MH60R Seahawk helicopters to India, told the US Congress that this proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the US by helping to strengthen the US-Indian strategic relationship, India being a major defence partner which continues to be an important force for political stability, peace, and economic progress in the Indo-Pacific and South Asia region. The notification further said, "The proposed sale will provide India the capability to perform anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare missions along with the ability to perform secondary missions including vertical replenishment, search and rescue, and communications relay. India will use the enhanced capability as a deterrent to regional threats and to strengthen its homeland defence", adding, that the proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region. For decades our Navy has had problems with procuring new helicopters but procurement hit roadblocks because of red tape and a corrupt and unaccountable bureaucracy. Delay also was because of efforts to build an indigenous helicopter to meet the Navy's needs in this category of helicopters. But these efforts too were plagued by political and bureaucratic bungling.
The closest indigenous effort was Dhruv helicopters and Navy did commission the first Dhruv squadron in 2013. However, Navy's needs of SAR and ASW since complaints against the Dhruv helicopters included lack of engine power and poor reliability. The Navy desperately needs to replace about 30 of its older Sea Kings, which the MH-60s have replaced in many countries. The Sea Kings have a max speed of 209 km an hour, max load of 3.5 tonnes, max altitude of 3,500 meters (11,500 feet) max range of 1,200 km and max endurance of about six hours. The MH-60R has a max speed of 270 km an hour, max load of 1.9 tonnes, max altitude of 3,500 meters (11,500 feet), max range of 830 km. Induction of 24 x MH60R Seahawk helicopters will provide significant increase to the Navy's combat capability. Master of cloning, China has developed the 'Harbin Z-20 helo, which is replica of the US Seahawk helicopter. The Z-20 has a fly-by-wire flight control system. Powered by a pair of turboshaft engines, the Z-20, reportedly designated WZ-10, bears striking resemblance to the Sikorsky S-70 Black Hawk family in terms of general layout, aesthetics and size. Interestingly, China's PLA does operate demilitarised version of the Black Hawk sold by the US in the 1990s. The Z-20 was reported to have entered limited service with the PLA in late 2017 or early 2018. Open-source imagery suggests China is also developing a maritime variant of the Z-20 for use on board the PLA Navy's warships. Tentatively designated the Z-20F, photos show a gray Z-20 with modifications for shipboard operations, such as a cut-down rear horizontal stabilizer, and a tail-wheel that has been relocated forward to the front of the tail boom, similar to the Seahawk helicopters of the US Navy. The Z-20F is expected to perform ASW, SAR and other shipboard operations on the Chinese Type 055 cruisers and aircraft carriers, as also on board some of the later Type 052D destroyers of China's naval force.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2019/10/seahawks-are-coming.html
Going by news reports, the Indian Navy is set to acquire 24 x MH60R Seahawk Anti-Submarine Helicopters at a probable cost of $109 million per helicopter – total cost about $2.616 billion. The cost includes accessories, spare parts, technical support and maintenance facilities. The Seahawks can be used both for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and for attacking surface vessels using hellfire missiles these helicopters are armed with. The media elaborates that despite the higher costs of these helicopters, they are tipped to be more value for money. For detecting submarines, these helicopters would be equipped with cutting edge sonar and radar. The radar would be capable of detecting submarines travelling on the surface or just below the surface. Considering that modern nuclear submarines travel just below the ocean surface to get rid of exhaust fumes, the radar will be especially effective. These helicopters are the naval version of US Army's Sikrosky UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter and can be used for search and rescue operations.
The US Seal Team Six had used UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters in the raid to kill Osama bin-Laden in Abbottabad on May 2, 2011. ASW involves using computers, sonar, and radar to search for submarines, which involves staring at a screen most of the time while manipulating the sensors and computers to detect and locate subs. Once you have a solid location fix, you can launch a torpedo and sink the enemy vessel. The MH-60R uses a sonar that operates in active (broadcasting) and passive (just listening) mode. The sonar system consists of dipping sonar and sonobuoys, which are dropped and communicate wirelessly. The dipping sonar is lowered into the water from the helicopter using an 806 meter (2,500 foot) cable and winch. The MH-60R is also equipped with a radar system for detecting subs on the surface or just beneath the surface. Modern non-nuclear subs often travel just beneath the surface with only the periscope or snorkel above water to provide air for the diesel engine and gets rid of the exhaust fumes. MH-60Rs can also perform SAR (search and rescue) work where, to obtain maximum airtime and carrying capacity, the sonar and all its associated electronics is quickly and temporarily removed. The MH-60 can hover low enough to deploy a line to people in the water and winch people aboard. Delivery of the Seahawk helicopters to the Navy is expected to within one year. In addition to the MH-60R Seahawks, India is also procuring 15 x CH-47F heavy transport helicopters from the US, some of which have begun arriving in the country. Also, 22 x AH-64E helicopter gunships will begin arriving later during 2019.
The US State Department in its notification on sale of 24 x MH60R Seahawk helicopters to India, told the US Congress that this proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the US by helping to strengthen the US-Indian strategic relationship, India being a major defence partner which continues to be an important force for political stability, peace, and economic progress in the Indo-Pacific and South Asia region. The notification further said, "The proposed sale will provide India the capability to perform anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare missions along with the ability to perform secondary missions including vertical replenishment, search and rescue, and communications relay. India will use the enhanced capability as a deterrent to regional threats and to strengthen its homeland defence", adding, that the proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region. For decades our Navy has had problems with procuring new helicopters but procurement hit roadblocks because of red tape and a corrupt and unaccountable bureaucracy. Delay also was because of efforts to build an indigenous helicopter to meet the Navy's needs in this category of helicopters. But these efforts too were plagued by political and bureaucratic bungling.
The closest indigenous effort was Dhruv helicopters and Navy did commission the first Dhruv squadron in 2013. However, Navy's needs of SAR and ASW since complaints against the Dhruv helicopters included lack of engine power and poor reliability. The Navy desperately needs to replace about 30 of its older Sea Kings, which the MH-60s have replaced in many countries. The Sea Kings have a max speed of 209 km an hour, max load of 3.5 tonnes, max altitude of 3,500 meters (11,500 feet) max range of 1,200 km and max endurance of about six hours. The MH-60R has a max speed of 270 km an hour, max load of 1.9 tonnes, max altitude of 3,500 meters (11,500 feet), max range of 830 km. Induction of 24 x MH60R Seahawk helicopters will provide significant increase to the Navy's combat capability. Master of cloning, China has developed the 'Harbin Z-20 helo, which is replica of the US Seahawk helicopter. The Z-20 has a fly-by-wire flight control system. Powered by a pair of turboshaft engines, the Z-20, reportedly designated WZ-10, bears striking resemblance to the Sikorsky S-70 Black Hawk family in terms of general layout, aesthetics and size. Interestingly, China's PLA does operate demilitarised version of the Black Hawk sold by the US in the 1990s. The Z-20 was reported to have entered limited service with the PLA in late 2017 or early 2018. Open-source imagery suggests China is also developing a maritime variant of the Z-20 for use on board the PLA Navy's warships. Tentatively designated the Z-20F, photos show a gray Z-20 with modifications for shipboard operations, such as a cut-down rear horizontal stabilizer, and a tail-wheel that has been relocated forward to the front of the tail boom, similar to the Seahawk helicopters of the US Navy. The Z-20F is expected to perform ASW, SAR and other shipboard operations on the Chinese Type 055 cruisers and aircraft carriers, as also on board some of the later Type 052D destroyers of China's naval force.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2019/10/seahawks-are-coming.html
WolfPack86
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Seahawks are coming.
Going by news reports, the Indian Navy is set to acquire 24 x MH60R Seahawk Anti-Submarine Helicopters at a probable cost of $109 million per helicopter – total cost about $2.616 billion. The cost includes accessories, spare parts, technical support and maintenance facilities. The Seahawks can be used both for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and for attacking surface vessels using hellfire missiles these helicopters are armed with. The media elaborates that despite the higher costs of these helicopters, they are tipped to be more value for money. For detecting submarines, these helicopters would be equipped with cutting edge sonar and radar. The radar would be capable of detecting submarines travelling on the surface or just below the surface. Considering that modern nuclear submarines travel just below the ocean surface to get rid of exhaust fumes, the radar will be especially effective. These helicopters are the naval version of US Army's Sikrosky UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter and can be used for search and rescue operations.
The US Seal Team Six had used UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters in the raid to kill Osama bin-Laden in Abbottabad on May 2, 2011. ASW involves using computers, sonar, and radar to search for submarines, which involves staring at a screen most of the time while manipulating the sensors and computers to detect and locate subs. Once you have a solid location fix, you can launch a torpedo and sink the enemy vessel. The MH-60R uses a sonar that operates in active (broadcasting) and passive (just listening) mode. The sonar system consists of dipping sonar and sonobuoys, which are dropped and communicate wirelessly. The dipping sonar is lowered into the water from the helicopter using an 806 meter (2,500 foot) cable and winch. The MH-60R is also equipped with a radar system for detecting subs on the surface or just beneath the surface. Modern non-nuclear subs often travel just beneath the surface with only the periscope or snorkel above water to provide air for the diesel engine and gets rid of the exhaust fumes. MH-60Rs can also perform SAR (search and rescue) work where, to obtain maximum airtime and carrying capacity, the sonar and all its associated electronics is quickly and temporarily removed. The MH-60 can hover low enough to deploy a line to people in the water and winch people aboard. Delivery of the Seahawk helicopters to the Navy is expected to within one year. In addition to the MH-60R Seahawks, India is also procuring 15 x CH-47F heavy transport helicopters from the US, some of which have begun arriving in the country. Also, 22 x AH-64E helicopter gunships will begin arriving later during 2019.
The US State Department in its notification on sale of 24 x MH60R Seahawk helicopters to India, told the US Congress that this proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the US by helping to strengthen the US-Indian strategic relationship, India being a major defence partner which continues to be an important force for political stability, peace, and economic progress in the Indo-Pacific and South Asia region. The notification further said, "The proposed sale will provide India the capability to perform anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare missions along with the ability to perform secondary missions including vertical replenishment, search and rescue, and communications relay. India will use the enhanced capability as a deterrent to regional threats and to strengthen its homeland defence", adding, that the proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region. For decades our Navy has had problems with procuring new helicopters but procurement hit roadblocks because of red tape and a corrupt and unaccountable bureaucracy. Delay also was because of efforts to build an indigenous helicopter to meet the Navy's needs in this category of helicopters. But these efforts too were plagued by political and bureaucratic bungling.
The closest indigenous effort was Dhruv helicopters and Navy did commission the first Dhruv squadron in 2013. However, Navy's needs of SAR and ASW since complaints against the Dhruv helicopters included lack of engine power and poor reliability. The Navy desperately needs to replace about 30 of its older Sea Kings, which the MH-60s have replaced in many countries. The Sea Kings have a max speed of 209 km an hour, max load of 3.5 tonnes, max altitude of 3,500 meters (11,500 feet) max range of 1,200 km and max endurance of about six hours. The MH-60R has a max speed of 270 km an hour, max load of 1.9 tonnes, max altitude of 3,500 meters (11,500 feet), max range of 830 km. Induction of 24 x MH60R Seahawk helicopters will provide significant increase to the Navy's combat capability. Master of cloning, China has developed the 'Harbin Z-20 helo, which is replica of the US Seahawk helicopter. The Z-20 has a fly-by-wire flight control system. Powered by a pair of turboshaft engines, the Z-20, reportedly designated WZ-10, bears striking resemblance to the Sikorsky S-70 Black Hawk family in terms of general layout, aesthetics and size. Interestingly, China's PLA does operate demilitarised version of the Black Hawk sold by the US in the 1990s. The Z-20 was reported to have entered limited service with the PLA in late 2017 or early 2018. Open-source imagery suggests China is also developing a maritime variant of the Z-20 for use on board the PLA Navy's warships. Tentatively designated the Z-20F, photos show a gray Z-20 with modifications for shipboard operations, such as a cut-down rear horizontal stabilizer, and a tail-wheel that has been relocated forward to the front of the tail boom, similar to the Seahawk helicopters of the US Navy. The Z-20F is expected to perform ASW, SAR and other shipboard operations on the Chinese Type 055 cruisers and aircraft carriers, as also on board some of the later Type 052D destroyers of China's naval force.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2019/10/seahawks-are-coming.html
Going by news reports, the Indian Navy is set to acquire 24 x MH60R Seahawk Anti-Submarine Helicopters at a probable cost of $109 million per helicopter – total cost about $2.616 billion. The cost includes accessories, spare parts, technical support and maintenance facilities. The Seahawks can be used both for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and for attacking surface vessels using hellfire missiles these helicopters are armed with. The media elaborates that despite the higher costs of these helicopters, they are tipped to be more value for money. For detecting submarines, these helicopters would be equipped with cutting edge sonar and radar. The radar would be capable of detecting submarines travelling on the surface or just below the surface. Considering that modern nuclear submarines travel just below the ocean surface to get rid of exhaust fumes, the radar will be especially effective. These helicopters are the naval version of US Army's Sikrosky UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter and can be used for search and rescue operations.
The US Seal Team Six had used UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters in the raid to kill Osama bin-Laden in Abbottabad on May 2, 2011. ASW involves using computers, sonar, and radar to search for submarines, which involves staring at a screen most of the time while manipulating the sensors and computers to detect and locate subs. Once you have a solid location fix, you can launch a torpedo and sink the enemy vessel. The MH-60R uses a sonar that operates in active (broadcasting) and passive (just listening) mode. The sonar system consists of dipping sonar and sonobuoys, which are dropped and communicate wirelessly. The dipping sonar is lowered into the water from the helicopter using an 806 meter (2,500 foot) cable and winch. The MH-60R is also equipped with a radar system for detecting subs on the surface or just beneath the surface. Modern non-nuclear subs often travel just beneath the surface with only the periscope or snorkel above water to provide air for the diesel engine and gets rid of the exhaust fumes. MH-60Rs can also perform SAR (search and rescue) work where, to obtain maximum airtime and carrying capacity, the sonar and all its associated electronics is quickly and temporarily removed. The MH-60 can hover low enough to deploy a line to people in the water and winch people aboard. Delivery of the Seahawk helicopters to the Navy is expected to within one year. In addition to the MH-60R Seahawks, India is also procuring 15 x CH-47F heavy transport helicopters from the US, some of which have begun arriving in the country. Also, 22 x AH-64E helicopter gunships will begin arriving later during 2019.
The US State Department in its notification on sale of 24 x MH60R Seahawk helicopters to India, told the US Congress that this proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the US by helping to strengthen the US-Indian strategic relationship, India being a major defence partner which continues to be an important force for political stability, peace, and economic progress in the Indo-Pacific and South Asia region. The notification further said, "The proposed sale will provide India the capability to perform anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare missions along with the ability to perform secondary missions including vertical replenishment, search and rescue, and communications relay. India will use the enhanced capability as a deterrent to regional threats and to strengthen its homeland defence", adding, that the proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region. For decades our Navy has had problems with procuring new helicopters but procurement hit roadblocks because of red tape and a corrupt and unaccountable bureaucracy. Delay also was because of efforts to build an indigenous helicopter to meet the Navy's needs in this category of helicopters. But these efforts too were plagued by political and bureaucratic bungling.
The closest indigenous effort was Dhruv helicopters and Navy did commission the first Dhruv squadron in 2013. However, Navy's needs of SAR and ASW since complaints against the Dhruv helicopters included lack of engine power and poor reliability. The Navy desperately needs to replace about 30 of its older Sea Kings, which the MH-60s have replaced in many countries. The Sea Kings have a max speed of 209 km an hour, max load of 3.5 tonnes, max altitude of 3,500 meters (11,500 feet) max range of 1,200 km and max endurance of about six hours. The MH-60R has a max speed of 270 km an hour, max load of 1.9 tonnes, max altitude of 3,500 meters (11,500 feet), max range of 830 km. Induction of 24 x MH60R Seahawk helicopters will provide significant increase to the Navy's combat capability. Master of cloning, China has developed the 'Harbin Z-20 helo, which is replica of the US Seahawk helicopter. The Z-20 has a fly-by-wire flight control system. Powered by a pair of turboshaft engines, the Z-20, reportedly designated WZ-10, bears striking resemblance to the Sikorsky S-70 Black Hawk family in terms of general layout, aesthetics and size. Interestingly, China's PLA does operate demilitarised version of the Black Hawk sold by the US in the 1990s. The Z-20 was reported to have entered limited service with the PLA in late 2017 or early 2018. Open-source imagery suggests China is also developing a maritime variant of the Z-20 for use on board the PLA Navy's warships. Tentatively designated the Z-20F, photos show a gray Z-20 with modifications for shipboard operations, such as a cut-down rear horizontal stabilizer, and a tail-wheel that has been relocated forward to the front of the tail boom, similar to the Seahawk helicopters of the US Navy. The Z-20F is expected to perform ASW, SAR and other shipboard operations on the Chinese Type 055 cruisers and aircraft carriers, as also on board some of the later Type 052D destroyers of China's naval force.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2019/10/seahawks-are-coming.html
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Why would you pay that much for an inferior helicopter?
Bhurki
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The complement of sensors, weapons package and 'US commissions' are involved in this..
Acquisition costs are ballooning like hell..
The only thing bought for reasonable price in recent times are 200 Kamov for $2B.
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French helicopters are the most capable in their weight class but are expensive, to pay more for a less capable American chopper doesn't make sense. It is clear why Russia is successful, dirt cheap for something that just works.
Bhurki
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Someone could argue USN has way more experience with anti sub warfare than the french. The decision to choose US platform is heavily influenced by the choice to buy US sensors coming with it.
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I doubt it, France is home of Thales Underwater Systems, the world leader in anti-submarine warfare. Even the US buys kit from them. It would make sense if it was cheaper than our offer, but it isn't.
Bhurki
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Do you have any other fitting reason then?
Or shooting down everybody else's logic the only mode you operate in?
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NH-90 - the OTHER contender for this RFI is plagued with so many problems that many nations have dropped their plans to purchase them:
All deny blame for helicopter scandal
Not a single Norwegain defense minister over the past 18 years was willing to take responsibility at hearings this week into the country’s expensive and deeply troubled NH90 helicopters. The politicians blamed defense officials, who in turn blamed the helicopters’ Italian producer.
Norway’s troublesome NH90 helicopters have never performed as expected, and only nine of the 14 ordered in 2001 have been delivered. PHOTO: Forsvaret
In addition, reported newspaper Aftenposten, came news that there’s a still a great risk that new problems will turn up around the helicopters. Norway ordered 14 of them back in 2001, eight of which were supposed to serve aboard coast guard vessels and six on Norway’s also-troubled frigates. Only nine have actually been delivered and none are in use as planned.
It’s a scandal that’s dogged all of Norway’s governments over the past two decades, led to strong criticism by the state auditor general and prompted hearings this week at the Parliament in an effort to try to determine what went wrong. Defense ministers involved were called in to testify along with top defense officials. None of them was willing to accept blame or responsibility.
Aftenposten reported that the politicians representing both Labour- and Conservatives-led governments blamed the defense officials and so-called military experts who despite endless delays clung to the choice of the NH90, which proved to be experimental aircraft. The defense officials including current defense chief Haakon Bruun Hanssen blamed the Italian producer NHI.
Lack of alternatives
Their only comfort was that the sole alternative to the NH90 helicopter, the US-made Sikorsky Sea Hawk, was not deemed as meeting Norwegian demands for operations in rough seas and weather in the far north. Defense officials dimissed a comment that the Danish coast guard uses Sea Hawks along the coast of Greenland, with Bruun Hanssen claiming the Sea Hawks still wouldn’t have been acceptable because they wouldn’t be able to float if forced to land at sea.
The NH90, meanwhile, was supposed to have served as the new multi-purpose helicopter for the Norwegian defense department. It was developed by four European countries and produced in Italy, but finally delivered with hundreds of flaws and demanding enormous amounts of maintenance. As a result, those that have been delivered have mostly been grounded and unavailable for service. They’re also costly to fly, as much as NOK 260,000 (USD 31,000) per hour.
Bjørn Tore Godal, who served as defense minister in the current NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg’s Labour government in 2000-2001, claimed that he’d relied on the recommendation of four other Nordic defense ministers who chose the NH90 at the end of the 1990s. He also claimed he was told that the NH90 was the most cost-effective alternative when Norway’s old Lynx helicopters needed to be replaced.
10 years until the first delivery
Grete Faremo, who served as defense minister for Labour in a later Stoltenberg government, admitted it was no fun having to inform the Parliament of ongoing delays and problems in taking delivery of the helicopters. The first didn’t land in Norway until 2011, 10 years after being ordered. She did admit that during her time as defense minister, there were no detailed discussions about why there were so many problems.
Current Defense Minister Frank Bakke-Jensen of the Conservative Party said defense officials have never asked, though, to drop the NH90s and order other helicopters, again because alternatives were few. Only former Defense Minister Espen Barth Eide considered, back in 2012, dropping them and opting for Sea Hawks like Denmark had done, but that didn’t happen.
Norway thus remains stuck with its faulty NH90s. Coast guard vessels have sailed without helicopters since 2014, with the frigates getting priority for any operable NH90s because they must have helicopters to track submarines.
newsinenglish.no/Nina Berglund
Another gem-
https://www.governmenteuropa.eu/nh90-military-transport-helicopters-germany/90037/
Germany defends use of unreliable NH90 military transport helicopters
German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen has defended the country’s investment in NH90 military transport helicopters, which have encountered many technical problems in recent years.
22nd August 2018
The NH90 military transport helicopter © Airwolfhound
Von der Leyen has been on a summer tour of Germany’s military bases in order to take stock of military hardware and inspect troops, as part of an effort to counter concerns that the country is underprepared and its defence sector underfunded. Deutsche Welle reports that at a base in Niederstetten, the minister witnessed a demonstration involving six NH90 military transport helicopters, four paratroopers and around 60 infantry soldiers.
Following the demonstration, von der Leyen commented on Germany’s controversial use of the NH90 helicopters, including plans to acquire more by 2031, and defended their use against reports of ongoing technical problems.
What are the problems with NH90 helicopters?
A number of recent incidents have caused some to question the efficacy of NH90 helicopters. NH90s were deployed for 16 months on a United Nations mission in Mali, but were grounded when stress marks were discovered in the engine of one craft. Further, engine failure forced another NH90 into an emergency landing, and all of the aircraft were withdrawn from service in Mali at the end of their deployment in Mali in July.
However, the German army continues to rely heavily on the helicopters, with Major Andre Benker telling DW that the craft are “so important” because they “can transport personnel, drop off paratroopers, be used for search and rescue, and be used to provide protection to companies they accompany.”
Von der Leyen concurred, saying that the money spent on the NH90 had already paid off and is supported by military personnel. She dismissed criticism about Germany’s military spending, saying: “We can say that the NH90 has proved its worth… It’s good to hear from the soldiers that it’s a helicopter that is highly respected, and has shown in operations what extraordinary capabilities it has.”
One more: Australians moved to MH-60R fast
Australian MRH-90 Helicopter Problems Aired
by Chris Pocock
October 22, 2015, 12:45 PM
The Australian Ministry of Defence (MoD) is still voicing concern about the capabilities and performance of its NH Industries MRH-90 Taipan helicopter fleet, nearly eight years after it received the first pair. But a senior official from Airbus Group Asia Pacific (AGAP) said that a series of remedies are pending, or already in effect. The developments were reported by Asia-Pacific Aerospace Report, an Australian newsletter.
Australia ordered a total of 46 MRH-90s between 2004 and 06, 40 to replace the army’s S-70A Blackhawks, and six to replace the navy’s Sea Kings. Most were to be assembled in Australia at a facility in Brisbane that is now part of AGAP. Delivery delays and initial technical issues led the MoD to place the MRH-90 on its “projects of concern” watch list in late 2011. At that time, a government minister said that many of the issues were shared with other customers for the NH-90.
The senior management of NHI has since acknowledged that the NH-90 was slow to reach maturity, and has reported a new effort to improve availability for all customers. But Rear Admiral Terry Dalton, the Australian MoD’s head of helicopters, said last month that the time taken to overhaul components was a major problem. He also noted that some capabilities had yet to be introduced, such as separated side guns, a fast roping repelling system, and a cargo hook for operations at sea. Initial versions of the latter two items proved unsatisfactory.
Charles Crocombe, AGAP vice president for government helicopters, this month told a naval aviation symposium in Australia that 33 Taipans had now been delivered, and the fleet is exceeding the flight hour “rate of effort” set by the MoD. He said that the army would test the new fast roping system next month, and that a new cargo hook had been designed. Better seating for fully combat-equipped soldiers had also been designed. Corrosion issues were being addressed, and the rotor head would be modified.
MH-60R/S is a reduced risk option for USN by upgrading very reliable H-60 design. It is an older airframe with use of metal instead of composites. Unlike NH-90 and E101, it does not have rear ramp. It is packed with latest gadgets however and darling of USN.
All deny blame for helicopter scandal
Not a single Norwegain defense minister over the past 18 years was willing to take responsibility at hearings this week into the country’s expensive and deeply troubled NH90 helicopters. The politicians blamed defense officials, who in turn blamed the helicopters’ Italian producer.
Norway’s troublesome NH90 helicopters have never performed as expected, and only nine of the 14 ordered in 2001 have been delivered. PHOTO: Forsvaret
In addition, reported newspaper Aftenposten, came news that there’s a still a great risk that new problems will turn up around the helicopters. Norway ordered 14 of them back in 2001, eight of which were supposed to serve aboard coast guard vessels and six on Norway’s also-troubled frigates. Only nine have actually been delivered and none are in use as planned.
It’s a scandal that’s dogged all of Norway’s governments over the past two decades, led to strong criticism by the state auditor general and prompted hearings this week at the Parliament in an effort to try to determine what went wrong. Defense ministers involved were called in to testify along with top defense officials. None of them was willing to accept blame or responsibility.
Aftenposten reported that the politicians representing both Labour- and Conservatives-led governments blamed the defense officials and so-called military experts who despite endless delays clung to the choice of the NH90, which proved to be experimental aircraft. The defense officials including current defense chief Haakon Bruun Hanssen blamed the Italian producer NHI.
Lack of alternatives
Their only comfort was that the sole alternative to the NH90 helicopter, the US-made Sikorsky Sea Hawk, was not deemed as meeting Norwegian demands for operations in rough seas and weather in the far north. Defense officials dimissed a comment that the Danish coast guard uses Sea Hawks along the coast of Greenland, with Bruun Hanssen claiming the Sea Hawks still wouldn’t have been acceptable because they wouldn’t be able to float if forced to land at sea.
The NH90, meanwhile, was supposed to have served as the new multi-purpose helicopter for the Norwegian defense department. It was developed by four European countries and produced in Italy, but finally delivered with hundreds of flaws and demanding enormous amounts of maintenance. As a result, those that have been delivered have mostly been grounded and unavailable for service. They’re also costly to fly, as much as NOK 260,000 (USD 31,000) per hour.
Bjørn Tore Godal, who served as defense minister in the current NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg’s Labour government in 2000-2001, claimed that he’d relied on the recommendation of four other Nordic defense ministers who chose the NH90 at the end of the 1990s. He also claimed he was told that the NH90 was the most cost-effective alternative when Norway’s old Lynx helicopters needed to be replaced.
10 years until the first delivery
Grete Faremo, who served as defense minister for Labour in a later Stoltenberg government, admitted it was no fun having to inform the Parliament of ongoing delays and problems in taking delivery of the helicopters. The first didn’t land in Norway until 2011, 10 years after being ordered. She did admit that during her time as defense minister, there were no detailed discussions about why there were so many problems.
Current Defense Minister Frank Bakke-Jensen of the Conservative Party said defense officials have never asked, though, to drop the NH90s and order other helicopters, again because alternatives were few. Only former Defense Minister Espen Barth Eide considered, back in 2012, dropping them and opting for Sea Hawks like Denmark had done, but that didn’t happen.
Norway thus remains stuck with its faulty NH90s. Coast guard vessels have sailed without helicopters since 2014, with the frigates getting priority for any operable NH90s because they must have helicopters to track submarines.
newsinenglish.no/Nina Berglund
Another gem-
https://www.governmenteuropa.eu/nh90-military-transport-helicopters-germany/90037/
Germany defends use of unreliable NH90 military transport helicopters
German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen has defended the country’s investment in NH90 military transport helicopters, which have encountered many technical problems in recent years.
22nd August 2018
The NH90 military transport helicopter © Airwolfhound
Von der Leyen has been on a summer tour of Germany’s military bases in order to take stock of military hardware and inspect troops, as part of an effort to counter concerns that the country is underprepared and its defence sector underfunded. Deutsche Welle reports that at a base in Niederstetten, the minister witnessed a demonstration involving six NH90 military transport helicopters, four paratroopers and around 60 infantry soldiers.
Following the demonstration, von der Leyen commented on Germany’s controversial use of the NH90 helicopters, including plans to acquire more by 2031, and defended their use against reports of ongoing technical problems.
What are the problems with NH90 helicopters?
A number of recent incidents have caused some to question the efficacy of NH90 helicopters. NH90s were deployed for 16 months on a United Nations mission in Mali, but were grounded when stress marks were discovered in the engine of one craft. Further, engine failure forced another NH90 into an emergency landing, and all of the aircraft were withdrawn from service in Mali at the end of their deployment in Mali in July.
However, the German army continues to rely heavily on the helicopters, with Major Andre Benker telling DW that the craft are “so important” because they “can transport personnel, drop off paratroopers, be used for search and rescue, and be used to provide protection to companies they accompany.”
Von der Leyen concurred, saying that the money spent on the NH90 had already paid off and is supported by military personnel. She dismissed criticism about Germany’s military spending, saying: “We can say that the NH90 has proved its worth… It’s good to hear from the soldiers that it’s a helicopter that is highly respected, and has shown in operations what extraordinary capabilities it has.”
One more: Australians moved to MH-60R fast
Australian MRH-90 Helicopter Problems Aired
by Chris Pocock
October 22, 2015, 12:45 PM
The Australian Ministry of Defence (MoD) is still voicing concern about the capabilities and performance of its NH Industries MRH-90 Taipan helicopter fleet, nearly eight years after it received the first pair. But a senior official from Airbus Group Asia Pacific (AGAP) said that a series of remedies are pending, or already in effect. The developments were reported by Asia-Pacific Aerospace Report, an Australian newsletter.
Australia ordered a total of 46 MRH-90s between 2004 and 06, 40 to replace the army’s S-70A Blackhawks, and six to replace the navy’s Sea Kings. Most were to be assembled in Australia at a facility in Brisbane that is now part of AGAP. Delivery delays and initial technical issues led the MoD to place the MRH-90 on its “projects of concern” watch list in late 2011. At that time, a government minister said that many of the issues were shared with other customers for the NH-90.
The senior management of NHI has since acknowledged that the NH-90 was slow to reach maturity, and has reported a new effort to improve availability for all customers. But Rear Admiral Terry Dalton, the Australian MoD’s head of helicopters, said last month that the time taken to overhaul components was a major problem. He also noted that some capabilities had yet to be introduced, such as separated side guns, a fast roping repelling system, and a cargo hook for operations at sea. Initial versions of the latter two items proved unsatisfactory.
Charles Crocombe, AGAP vice president for government helicopters, this month told a naval aviation symposium in Australia that 33 Taipans had now been delivered, and the fleet is exceeding the flight hour “rate of effort” set by the MoD. He said that the army would test the new fast roping system next month, and that a new cargo hook had been designed. Better seating for fully combat-equipped soldiers had also been designed. Corrosion issues were being addressed, and the rotor head would be modified.
MH-60R/S is a reduced risk option for USN by upgrading very reliable H-60 design. It is an older airframe with use of metal instead of composites. Unlike NH-90 and E101, it does not have rear ramp. It is packed with latest gadgets however and darling of USN.
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NH-90 was never an option as Leonardo is blacklisted. The offer from us was the Caracal, a completely French helicopter and superior in every way to MH60.
You mean the crash prone Caracal?
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Cougar is not the Caracal, Germany doesn't have any. Cougar was made before I was born.
Ah, I think EC225 the civil service cousin of Caracal that crashed and rotor issue is still not resolved.
Airbus Helicopter Crash Prompted by ‘Sudden Catastrophic Failure’
Norwegian investigators issue preliminary report into April EC225 fatal crash
A search and rescue vessel patrols off the island of Turoey, near Bergen, Norway, on April 29 after a fatal helicopter crash there.PHOTO: RUNE
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The best you can find is one loss of the civilian version of the helicopter? There were 18 crashes of Black Hawks just in 2018.
This is not some maintenance or piloting error crash.. this is a major structural defect issue of rotor mast design. The same rotor is used SURION- the Korean derivative of EC225/ Caracal. EASA has 18 warnings for design of EC225 rotor.
Read EASA safety concerns for this lemon. Good for India that they didn’t get sucked in to this mess. I will stop here...no more replies.
FYI-
Defective rotor parts from Airbus blamed for fatal South Korean helicopter crash
By: Jeff Jeong September 12, 2018
a fatal crash of a South Korean Marine Corps helicopterindicates that defects in the main rotor mast likely caused the accident, according to military sources.
The crash of a Marineon, a modified variant of the Surion KUH-1 utility helicopter, occurred July 17 during a test flight at an airfield in the southeastern port city of Pohang. The crash killed five troops. Closed-circuit video footage showed the rotor blades fell apart shortly after takeoff.
The rotor mast in question was supplied by Airbus Helicopters, but manufactured by an Airbus contractor, according to investigators. Airbus is the main partner of the Surion development with Korea Aerospace Industries under a 2006 deal.
The joint investigation team, which involves civilian and military experts as well as observers, was launched Aug. 8 to find the cause of the accident. Airbus officials are participating in the probe.
“The interim results will be reported to the Ministry of National Defense this week before announcing them by Sept. 17,” a Marine Corps spokesman said. “Investigators have tentatively concluded that cracks in the rotor mast of the Marineon was a main cause of the crash.”
A member of the investigation team told Defense News that his team had found defects in a set of three rotor masts imported from Airbus during parts inspections.
“We found that the strength of a set of three rotor masts imported from Airbus was far lower than the standard, and one of them were confirmed to have been fitted in the crashed Marineon,” the investigator said, speaking on condition of anonymity. “Two other rotor masts in question were fitted in two other Surion troop-carrying helicopter
Bergen H225 Final Accident Report : Comprehensive and Worrying
10 Aug, 18, Source: Allan Blake
It seems a long time ago. On 29th April 2016, the Main Rotor Head and mast suddenly detached from an Airbus Helicopters H225 flying from Gullfaks B to Bergen Airport Flesland. The helicopter impacted on a small island east of Turøy. As the final accident report is published our thoughts have to be with the relatives, friends and work colleagues of the 13 passengers and crew who perished on that day. In April 2017 the Accident Investigation Board Norway (‘AIBN’) issued a Preliminary Report concluding that
“…the accident was a result of failure of the main rotor gearbox (MGB) due to a fatigue fracture in one of the eight second stage planet gears in the epicyclic module.” (para 2.1.1)
The crew, engineers and operator couldn’t have done anything to avoid this accident. There were no indications that the Main Gear Box (‘MGB’) was moving towards a catastrophic event. The main question that remained unanswered until this Final Report was issued on 5th July 2018 was why, in such a heavily regulated aviation industry, two similar catastrophic accidents could happen to helicopters with near identical MGBs only seven years apart? There were clear similarities to an AS 332L2 accident off the coast of Scotland in 2009 (G-REDL). The AIBN’s Preliminary Report was also critical of the European Aviation Safety Agency (‘EASA’) regulatory oversight that enabled a return to service of the H225 without clear assurances that the root causes of the accident had been identified and remedied (see HUMS: Safety Alert, February 3rd 2017 Helihub.com, and LN-OJF Preliminary Report: H225 Concerns Remain Open, May 3rd 2017 Helihub.com).
The AIBN’s Final Report (reference 2018-04) can be found on the AIBN reports page. It is comprehensive at 171 pages with more detailed investigations confirming the findings in the Interim Report and making 12 safety recommendations.
The Final Report is also worrying. The following are the key features that cause most concern:
“the available degree of scientific and technical knowledge meant it was neither foreseeable nor foreseen that a crack in a plant gear could propagate in a sub-layer, and as a result generate very low levels of detectable particles…With knowledge gained from this investigation, Airbus Helicopters has introduced a series of safety measures on the H225. Some of the technology that has been developed is ground-breaking for the helicopter industry. Airbus Helicopters will continue to pursue innovations and improve safety standards through a proactive approach that sees us challenge internally everything we do. Work on a number of potential improvements to the H225 are in progress, and I remain optimistic that this concerted and complex work will yield new advances.”
Bergen H225 Final Accident Report : Comprehensive and Worrying
It seems a long time ago. On 29th April 2016, the Main Rotor Head and mast suddenly detached from an Airbus Helicopters H225 flying from Gullfaks B to Bergen Airport Flesland. The helicopter impacted on a small island east of Turøy. As the final accident report is published our thoughts have to be with the relatives, friends and work colleagues of the 13 passengers and crew who perished on that day. In April 2017 the Accident Investigation Board Norway (‘AIBN’) issued a Preliminary Report concluding that
“…the accident was a result of failure of the main rotor gearbox (MGB) due to a fatigue fracture in one of the eight second stage planet gears in the epicyclic module.” (para 2.1.1)
The crew, engineers and operator couldn’t have done anything to avoid this accident. There were no indications that the Main Gear Box (‘MGB’) was moving towards a catastrophic event. The main question that remained unanswered until this Final Report was issued on 5th July 2018 was why, in such a heavily regulated aviation industry, two similar catastrophic accidents could happen to helicopters with near identical MGBs only seven years apart? There were clear similarities to an AS 332L2 accident off the coast of Scotland in 2009 (G-REDL). The AIBN’s Preliminary Report was also critical of the European Aviation Safety Agency (‘EASA’) regulatory oversight that enabled a return to service of the H225 without clear assurances that the root causes of the accident had been identified and remedied (see HUMS: Safety Alert, February 3rd 2017 Helihub.com, and LN-OJF Preliminary Report: H225 Concerns Remain Open, May 3rd 2017 Helihub.com).
The AIBN’s Final Report (reference 2018-04) can be found on the AIBN reports page. It is comprehensive at 171 pages with more detailed investigations confirming the findings in the Interim Report and making 12 safety recommendations.
The Final Report is also worrying. The following are the key features that cause most concern:
- There is no way of assuring detection of possible failure of the MGB sufficiently in advance of total failure. There was no spalling detected during the growth in cracks in the planet gears and thus little or no probability of detecting cracks growing before a complete fracture (section 2.4.2.6), the investigation discovering that the oil cooler acted as a particle trap preventing 44% of the debris from reaching the oil filter including the largest particles (section 2.5.7). Airbus have improved the capture of particles in the oil by introducing a new full flow magnetic plug increasing the capture rate from 12% to 50% and strengthened inspection criteria and equipment allowing a more detailed analysis of these particles.
- Airbus Helicopters and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) did not realise the safety potential from the G-REDL accident report (section 2.8.6.2). The G-REDL report was described as a “turning point with respect to the continued airworthiness of the AS 332 L2 and the EC 225 LP helicopters”, the UK’s Air Accident Investigation Branch (‘AAIB’) making safety recommendations clearly relevant to the LN-OJF accident which were not followed through by EASA or Airbus (section 2.1.1.3). In particular, the Final Report of the AIBN (section 3.2.9) found that:
- “Less than 10 % of the second stage planet gears ever reached their intended operational time before being rejected during overhaul inspections or non-scheduled MGB removals due to signs of degradation.
- Airbus Helicopters did not perform systematic examination and analyses of unserviceable and rejected second stage planet gears in order to understand the full nature of any damage and its effect on continued airworthiness.
- Airbus Helicopters did not section and inspect any of the second stage planet gears that were scrapped during overhaul. Therefore, it remains uncertain whether any of these gears had subsurface cracks similar to observations made on LN-OJF.
- The differences between the two planet gear bearing designs had not been previously assessed through in-service statistics and calculations.”
- EASA and Airbus acted precipitately when EASA removed the flight prohibition on the H225 on 7 October 2016, with the investigation ongoing and important aspects still open: “The AIBN understands EASA’s role and Airbus Helicopters’ position, but would have expected a more precautionary approach at the time, since the accident involved a critical part in which failure has led to two catastrophic events” (section 2.14.2.4).
- The following issues are currently not fully resolved (section 3.2.11):
- Data, analyses and tests do not conclusively prove that the planet gears still in service will not have the potential to develop subsurface and possible undetectable fatigue cracks from a surface damage;
- The capability to detect and interpret metal particles of few mm2 in the MGB oil system to prevent critical failure;
- Why the cracks in the outer race grew subsurface into the gear bulk material and finally resulted in a fatigue fracture while creating limited spalling.
- “Two catastrophic events and the service experience of few second stage planet gears reaching their operating time limit, may suggest that the operational loading environment, on both AS 332 L2 and EC 225 LP, is close to the limit of endurance for the design” (section 2.14.4.1).
“the available degree of scientific and technical knowledge meant it was neither foreseeable nor foreseen that a crack in a plant gear could propagate in a sub-layer, and as a result generate very low levels of detectable particles…With knowledge gained from this investigation, Airbus Helicopters has introduced a series of safety measures on the H225. Some of the technology that has been developed is ground-breaking for the helicopter industry. Airbus Helicopters will continue to pursue innovations and improve safety standards through a proactive approach that sees us challenge internally everything we do. Work on a number of potential improvements to the H225 are in progress, and I remain optimistic that this concerted and complex work will yield new advances.”
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Bhurki
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Trying to think of a reason for yourself. Its a bit more work but makes you independent.
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The point of these forums is to examine a set of jumbled facts and to piece them together to find those reasons. If everyone here was making independent conclusions they are living in a bubble and not challenging themselves to find the truth. I challenge the premise of others so I can find that truth. It is the basis of deductive reasoning.
