MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[mamamia12]

They go by bribes and kickbacks and not reason.
Their patrons sitting in the US will cook up excuses to deny us the F404 engine needed for the Tejas, the same kind is also used for the Gripen.
Eventually the armed forces will be caught with their pants down for the #143515th time by either of our enemies and then they will go crying for those (((emergency procurements)))
SAAB knows this and is lying in wait for the "opportunity" to arise.

The AK-103 rifles which were to be produced in Amethi haven't turned up yet, so i've heard there is another (((emergency procurement))) of Sig 716 rifles, this is another example from the army but you get the point.

It is very ironic that these two forces are most likely to get in a fight with the enemy but they engage in all this for import and kickback maxxing, while the Navy is the least likely and yet makes a majority of it's ships domestically, and sources electronics domestically, while the missiles are developed in collaboration with Israel and Russia respectively, only (((imports))) are in the areas of submarines and LHDs( hope i got the acronym correct )

Also fuck pappu, if it wasn't for his barking, our Great Leader wouldn't have got scared and we could have got some more Rafales for the airforce in G2G mode, without this MMRCA 2.0 tender chutiyapa.

I think there is no hiccup in regarding GE deal. The GE Spokesperson herself stated that they are restarting the production line and the deliveries will be 20 per year. I think its on our part i.e HAL fucked up project management timelines which it always had. Personally, I don't think US at this stage will risk further alienating India by halting GE Engines. Also, the same spokesperson assured that GE-HAL F414 deal will commence this year. So, even for Tejas mk2 there won't be any hurdles from GE side since US congress approved and i think only the ITAR approval remained?.

 

[prateikf]

I think there is no hiccup in regarding GE deal. The GE Spokesperson herself stated that they are restarting the production line and the deliveries will be 20 per year. I think its on our part i.e HAL fucked up project management timelines which it always had. Personally, I don't think US at this stage will risk further alienating India by halting GE Engines. Also, the same spokesperson assured that GE-HAL F414 deal will commence this year. So, even for Tejas mk2 there won't be any hurdles from GE side since US congress approved and i think only the ITAR approval remained?.

They will supply the engines no doubt but perhaps at a slower pace maybe maximum of 20 per year. There might be issues regarding 80% TOT.

 

[BON PLAN]

Total amount will be 30billion
It can work if we abandon mk2 program and focus on amca.
Mk2 is completely unnecessary anyways.
Also not sure why mk2 was proposed when tedbf is clearly much superior

MK2 is an afordable solution, to have quantity, because quantity is a quality in itself !
TEDBF is a twin engine bird, on a drawing board stage when MK2 is more mature.

I don't understand why you don't merge AMCA and TEDBF.

 

[mamamia12]

There is no skipping of MK2. You are not gonna fill in your entire airforce with Twin engine Tedbf or AMCA or Rafale or Su-57 or F-35 any twin engine fighter. It may be a ideal strategy for medium number airforce like France or Australia itself to have Rafale alone in its inventory. But we need a light-cheap-singleengine-easymaintenance-4.5gen airframe thats gonna fill in numbers.

 

[BON PLAN]

42 more Rafale F4 ordered for the French Air Force for $5.5 billion. Can we order a 100 for $12 billion ?

France Orders 42 More Dassault Rafale Combat Jets for $5.5B

The French Defense Procurement Agency has ordered 42 additional Rafale twin-engine fighter aircraft for the country’s air force.

www.thedefensepost.com

The "dry" price of Rafale, without VAT (the french air force price may integrate 20% VAT.... I'm not sure), was some years ago in the 75€ million each without VAT (so the case of an export deal).
Let's say it is now 90 million/piece in the F4 std.

Problems in the indian case are :
You want offsets. It has a price.
If you take the multi year support, it add significant costs. It is for sure not in the french air force bill.
You will need some more weapons.
You will have to accomodate to the Rafale world 2 more air bases (test benchs, trainings, tools...)

100 "dry" Rafale without offsets = 10 billion, maybe less. If offsets.... 15 billions?
Support : add 0,5 to 1 billion
Weapons : add 1 billion
Training hardware : ???
Total is more 18 - 20 billions for 100 jets.

The real good news is that the IAF specifications are already paid. No more cost.

 

[BON PLAN]

We don't know what is included in that offer? Any Indian order will mean money for base infrastructure and weapons will be included.
Besides manufacturing in India will double the cost of rafale since all tools will have to be duplicated in India. Only assembly might take place .

This is the price for just 42 bird. A "dry" price as I used to say.
So without support (it is another contract in France), without weapon, without training facilities.
Just I think it is with 20% VAT.

 

[johnj]

The "dry" price of Rafale, without VAT (the french air force price may integrate 20% VAT.... I'm not sure), was some years ago in the 75€ million each without VAT (so the case of an export deal).
Let's say it is now 90 million/piece in the F4 std.

Problems in the indian case are :
You want offsets. It has a price.
If you take the multi year support, it add significant costs. It is for sure not in the french air force bill.
You will need some more weapons.
You will have to accomodate to the Rafale world 2 more air bases (test benchs, trainings, tools...)

100 "dry" Rafale without offsets = 10 billion, maybe less. If offsets.... 15 billions?
Support : add 0,5 to 1 billion
Weapons : add 1 billion
Training hardware : ???
Total is more 18 - 20 billions for 100 jets.

The real good news is that the IAF specifications are already paid. No more cost.

What about spares ??
Setting up assembly / production line in india ?
I guess for 114, cost around 25billions

 

[prateikf]

The "dry" price of Rafale, without VAT (the french air force price may integrate 20% VAT.... I'm not sure), was some years ago in the 75€ million each without VAT (so the case of an export deal).
Let's say it is now 90 million/piece in the F4 std.

Problems in the indian case are :
You want offsets. It has a price.
If you take the multi year support, it add significant costs. It is for sure not in the french air force bill.
You will need some more weapons.
You will have to accomodate to the Rafale world 2 more air bases (test benchs, trainings, tools...)

100 "dry" Rafale without offsets = 10 billion, maybe less. If offsets.... 15 billions?
Support : add 0,5 to 1 billion
Weapons : add 1 billion
Training hardware : ???
Total is more 18 - 20 billions for 100 jets.

The real good news is that the IAF specifications are already paid. No more cost.

The govt can wave the offset requirements in case of G2G deals.

Offset policy: Changed for the worse

www.deccanherald.com

 

[maximus777]

Get the damned Rafales and stop haggling on the price! I am sure people of India will contribute chanda if needed in order to avoid any embarrassment like Feb 2019. We also need some serious progress on AMCA even if the engine or some of the components need to be sourced externally. This inaction for decades will bite us in the ass in the not too distant future. Add more tankers and AWACs to the list too.

 

[BON PLAN]

What about spares ??
Setting up assembly / production line in india ?
I guess for 114, cost around 25billions

The spares are in the support deal.
In France it is 2 dedicated contracts : RAVEL for the bird and BOLERO for the engine.
In the Indian IAF first deal (the 7.9billion € deal for 36 bird with weapons, support, special features, base accomodation...), it was included in the whole package, with a level of availaibility requested (and far exceeded according to rumors).

Le MCO du Rafale : RAVEL et BOLÉRO - RAFALE : The omnirole fighter

Le MCO du Rafale : RAVEL et BOLÉRO pour garantir la capacité d'activités aériennes de l'Armée de l'Air et la Marine Nationale.

omnirole-rafale.com

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Get the damned Rafales and stop haggling on the price! I am sure people of India will contribute chanda if needed in order to avoid any embarrassment like Feb 2019. We also need some serious progress on AMCA even if the engine or some of the components need to be sourced externally. This inaction for decades will bite us in the ass in the not too distant future. Add more tankers and AWACs to the list too.

No no that is not how it works in India. In India tenders after tenders are called and delayed and cancelled and retendered. To line up the pockets of everyone concerned. Haggling isn't the only thing going on. Gov wants domestic production, ToT and license to produce airframes, engines and sub components, engine tech for other domestic fighter projects, and other stuff. And the tenders are layered with clauses and conditions like a retarded onion.

 

[WolfPack86]

Made in India Rafale Fighter Jets to Roll Out From Mihan SEZ In Nagpur | India France Defence Ties

 

[WolfPack86]

Nitin Gadkari : Rafale fighter jets to be rolled out from Nagpur, India

 

[prateikf]

Meanwhile Turkey gets F-16 costing $23 Billion. F-16 seems very pricey almost on par with the Rafale.
The US government has approved the $23bn (£18bn) sale of 40 new F-16 fighter jets to Turkey.
The deal includes modernisation kits for 79 existing Turkish F-16s.

US approves F-16 fighter jet sale to Turkey - BBC News

The $23bn sale comes after Turkey ratified Sweden's accession to Nato this week.

www.bbc.com

 

[SilentlAssassin265]

Meanwhile Turkey gets F-16 costing $23 Billion. F-16 seems very pricey almost on par with the Rafale.
The US government has approved the $23bn (£18bn) sale of 40 new F-16 fighter jets to Turkey.
The deal includes modernisation kits for 79 existing Turkish F-16s.

US approves F-16 fighter jet sale to Turkey - BBC News

The $23bn sale comes after Turkey ratified Sweden's accession to Nato this week.

www.bbc.com

So for total 120 numbers (40 new and 80 old upgrade) they are paying almost 200 million each.
What kind of rip off is this? It is surely biggest scam ever happened

 

[shade]

So for total 120 numbers (40 new and 80 old upgrade) they are paying almost 200 million each.
What kind of rip off is this? It is surely biggest scam ever happened

It is a scam.
Now they wouldn't even get these F16s, Erdogan had to block Sweden or Finlands accession into NATO, and in exchange for allowing the accession of Sweden iirc, America offered the Khilafa the privelege to buy some more F16s at an inflated price.

Reason is the Turki Airforce only has F16s in it's inventory as a current gen fighter, they also have some F4s but those are vintage af.

They have an ongoing panga with France so no Rafales for them, no 4 country khichdi Eurofighter either and the Russians are too busy with their war to sell the Turks anything.

The Regional Context Of Turkey’s Eurofighter Bid

It’s not inconceivable that Ankara will push for a Eurofighter deal even if Washington approves the F-16 sale in the near future.

www.forbes.com

Meanwhile, the chad Greek airforce has F16s, Rafales and F35s on order.

Since Erdoggy took over and did the S400 wala drama, Turkey has become a dhobi ka kutta since almost all of their stuff is US or German

 

[shade]

The Ottoman Empire Kingdom is such a slave to the American Empire, that their pilots have only trained on F16s
Absolutely nothing else

Turkey Questions The Wisdom Of Having An All-American Air Force

Turkey may wish it had taken similar steps to other Middle Eastern countries in recent decades to at least partially diversify its fighter fleet.

www.forbes.com

 

[mamamia12]

It is a scam.
Now they wouldn't even get these F16s, Erdogan had to block Sweden or Finlands accession into NATO, and in exchange for allowing the accession of Sweden iirc, America offered the Khilafa the privelege to buy some more F16s at an inflated price.

Reason is the Turki Airforce only has F16s in it's inventory as a current gen fighter, they also have some F4s but those are vintage af.

They have an ongoing panga with France so no Rafales for them, no 4 country khichdi Eurofighter either and the Russians are too busy with their war to sell the Turks anything.

The Regional Context Of Turkey’s Eurofighter Bid

It’s not inconceivable that Ankara will push for a Eurofighter deal even if Washington approves the F-16 sale in the near future.

www.forbes.com

Meanwhile, the chad Greek airforce has F16s, Rafales and F35s on order.

Since Erdoggy took over and did the S400 wala drama, Turkey has become a dhobi ka kutta since almost all of their stuff is US or German

So why didn't they develop a 4.5gen aircraft first to replace the F-16, I mean no one gonna be foolish enough to attack another NATO Country. What's the hurry in developing a KAAN fighter which is alone unlikely to be fill in entire Airforce. I mean India should be in hurry with enemies in doorstep unlike Turkey to develop a 5th gen. For a country that is very much on rapid pace to replace imported weapons with domestic ones what prompted them to overlook this crucial F-16 replacement.

 

[shade]

So why didn't they develop a 4.5gen aircraft first to replace the F-16, I mean no one gonna be foolish enough to attack another NATO Country. What's the hurry in developing a KAAN fighter which is alone unlikely to be fill in entire Airforce. I mean India should be in hurry with enemies in doorstep unlike Turkey to develop a 5th gen. For a country that is very much on rapid pace to replace imported weapons with domestic ones what prompted them to overlook this crucial F-16 replacement.

Because Erdogan randomly decided to buy S400 and tick off his country's American masters.

Remember, Turkey was such a (((trusted ally))) that they were onboard the F35 program and one of the first customers, onboard as in they would make parts that go into the F35, such were their homosexually close relations.

Now Erdogan also maintained a stealthy approach of behaving like a typical dhandhomaxing politician, but after he tamed the Turkish military( famous for coups ) in 2016, he showed his true green colors and picked up a fight with Uncle Sam and now France.

The result is now that their German( US vassal ) and American stuff based Armed forces are in peril.
The Russian is too busy, the quality of Chinese maal is unknown and they are in a fight with the Frenchman over Armenia

 

[prateikf]

Because Erdogan randomly decided to buy S400 and tick off his country's American masters.

Remember, Turkey was such a (((trusted ally))) that they were onboard the F35 program and one of the first customers, onboard as in they would make parts that go into the F35, such were their homosexually close relations.

Now Erdogan also maintained a stealthy approach of behaving like a typical dhandhomaxing politician, but after he tamed the Turkish military( famous for coups ) in 2016, he showed his true green colors and picked up a fight with Uncle Sam and now France.

The result is now that their German( US vassal ) and American stuff based Armed forces are in peril.
The Russian is too busy, the quality of Chinese maal is unknown and they are in a fight with the Frenchman over Armenia

Yes Turkey has been a staunch ally of the Americans ever since WW-II. America even allowed the Turks to invade and occupy Cyprus (An independent country and UN Member) in 1974 using American military equipment, killing and expelling it’s Greek civilians and occupying a third of the island ever since. Yet the Americans lecture us on human rights and values always and in relation to Russia.