Mirage upgrade: To be completed within 10 years

[p2prada]

What are the key differences between the AESA and the Multi Mode Doppler Radar, anyone?

All AESAs are multi mode doppler radars. Not all multi mode doppler radars are AESA. AESA is mainly the antenna type while the multimode doppler radar is the entire radar where AESA is only part of it.

The MMR can have a Passive ESA based antenna, a planar type, a slotted array type or an active ESA type.

That's why radars like RBE-2, CAPTOR and Bars can be equipped to handle active antennas by changing their current passive antennas. This reduces size and weight of the radar while increasing capability. However the biggest hindrance with Active antennas is the amount of Cooling required.

@JHB

A radar can pick up anything irrespective of speed. Even clouds can be picked up if the radar is configured for it.

Doppler radars work using the principle of Doppler effect.

 

[JAISWAL]

now MBDA had proposed ICSM-4 insted of MK-3 for mirag upgrade as MK-3 had been superseded.
.
Electronic Warfare Solutions for Combat Platforms - Thales.
Electronic Warfare Solutions
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For combat platforms, Thales
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Leveraging the systems
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[JAISWAL]

ICMS is an integrated, internally-
mounted EW suite that Thales
France and MBDA France have
developed for use on the Mirage
2000 multirole combat aircraft.
Within the architecture, all
subsystems are linked by a
Thales-developed central
interface and management unit
and there is a three element
warning receiver chain. Here, the
specific equipments comprise a
version of the Thales France's
Serval radar warner, a
superheterodyne unit (to detect
continuous wave radar, pulse
compressed and low-power
pulse Doppler signals) and a
receiver/processor (mounted in
the aircraft nose) to detect
missile command links. The
MBDA DDM-SAMIR Infra-Red
(IR) missile warner can be
incorporated if required and the
system's active Radio Frequency
(RF) jamming capability centres
on two Thales ABD-type
detector-jammers, each of which
incorporates its own receiver
chain to facilitate functionality if
the architecture's basic radar
warning receiver capability fails.
Each ICMS detector-jammer
consists of a high-frequency unit
to counter air-to-air/surface-to-
air threats and a low-frequency
unit for use against surface-to-
air threats in the lower part of
the RF spectrum. An internally-
mounted MBDA SPIRALE
CounterMeasure Dispensing
System (CMDS) provides the
suite's passive chaff and IR decoy
flare capability and in its latest
configuration (the ICMS Mk 3),
the architecture is equipped with
an improved radar warning
capability (via the incorporation
of an instantaneous frequency
measuring facility and digital
receiver technology), digital RF
memory technology (for the
active jamming function) and an
ÉCLAIR-M CMDS to supplement
the original SPIRALE capability.
ICMS Mk 3 is also noted as
being able to perform electronic
support functions

 

[JAISWAL]

Intelligence on board Mirage 2000
.
.
Intelligence on board Mirage
2000
Deployed by eight air forces, this
system is being constantly
enhanced to meet customers'
evolving operational
requirements.
Thales systems and equipment
are fitted to the Eurofighter
Typhoon, F-16, MiG, Mirage,
Rafale, Sukhoi and Tornado.
Combat radar
"¢ Latest-generation multifunction
radars
Core system and avionics
"¢ Modular mission and display
computer
"¢Avionics system with inertial
navigation system and GPS
receiver (INS/GPS)
"¢Cockpit display and control
system
Self-protection
"¢ Integrated countermeasures
systems, including latest-
generation ICMS Mk3
Optronics
"¢ Optronic target designation
and navigation system
CNI suite
"¢ Communications, navigation
and identification (CNI)
"¢Tactical links
Electrical systems
"¢ Electrical power generation
system (EPGS)
"¢Standby power generator
"¢ Power converter
"¢ Electric motor
"¢ Transformer rectifier unit
Missile electronics
"¢ Seekers
THALES +
On the Mirage 2000 and 2000-5,
the key functions of the
integrated countermeasures
system (ICMS) - detection,
jamming and deception - are
linked to a central interface and
computer. The latest version
developed by Thales offers a
number of advanced features,
such as real-time passive
situational awareness, high-
precision targeting and electronic
intelligence along with self-
protection functions.
Onboard systems on combat
aircraft
Thales has responsibility for the
major onboard systems for
combat aircraft, especially fire-
control radars, electronic
warfare subsystems and nav/
attack
system computers, along with
optronics, electrical power
generation, missile electronics,
communications, radio-
navigation and identification
systems.
Formodernising older aircraft
like the Mirage F1, Thales not
only supplies equipment but also
acts as prime contractor,
providing the complete system
and overseeing all installation
operations.

 

[Parthy]

The IAF dilemma: To upgrade its Mirage fleet or buy new jets

The Indian Air Force has a dilemma: should it go ahead and upgrade it's 51-strong Mirage fleet or purchase new fighters for Mirages' specific role? Talks between the Ministry of Defence and Mirage's French manufacturer Dassault are in the final stage and a decision is expected soon.

Upgrade of the French Dassault M2000 fighter aircraft would cost a whopping Rs 14,400 crore but it does not include the cost of procuring new weaponry worth Rs 80 crore.

If the Defence Ministry and the manufacturer sign the agreement, Dassault will supply four upgraded aircraft and kits to upgrade the remaining 47 aircraft to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Roughly Rs 4,500 crore is to be spent by HAL on the upgrade. It will also charge nearly Rs 900 crore for the furnished items.

A section of the IAF top brass feels that the upgrade cost is too high as the officers say that buying a new fighter would work out cheaper.

"Avionics and weaponry are complementary but their capabilities don't always match. The upgrade process is very complicated and thorough and has to be very convincing for it to be approved," said Air Marshal (retired) D. Keeler - hero of the 1965 and 1971 Indo-Pak wars. Mirage fighters were inducted in the IAF during Keeler's tenure in the mid-eighties. "Upgradation is always planned on the future lifespan of the airframe and engines," he added.

New weapons required to be fitted in the proposed upgraded aircraft include BVR (RF) MICA missiles, IR MICA missiles, conventional weapons and smart guided weapons with standoff capabilities, and air-to-surface weapons.

Incidentally, Dassault fighter Rafale has been shortlisted along with Eurofighter Typhoon in the over $10.5 billion deal for 126 Medium Multi Role-Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). Two American, one Swedish and one Russian rival firm are out of the race.

The Eurofighter is said to having an edge over Rafale. Dassault sees this as a 'win-win situation': If it fails to get the MMRCA deal, it is confident of clinching the Mirage upgrade deal. Purchasing new Mirages is not an option now as France has closed the production line, presumably to avoid competition between Mirage 2000 and the Rafale. When last produced in 2007, the estimated price of a Mirage 2000-09 was Rs 30-35 million.

The first batch of 40 Mirage aircraft was delivered during 1986-87, the second batch of nine during 1988-89 and the third batch of 10 aircraft during 2003-04. Of these 59 aircraft, only 51 are now in the fleet. The rest have been lost.

The proposal is to upgrade all 51 aircraft to extend their operational life and update their capability. The 'cardinal points' of the proposal include: no airframe modifications, no changes to major aircraft systems, no modification to equipment bays, limited cockpit modifications, minimum retrofit line modification facilities/activities, and, most significantly, it does not cover the cost of supply of weapons.

As the purpose of the upgrade is to bring the IAF's Mirage 2000 fleet up to the standard of the Mirage 2000-5 Mk2, which is used by the French and sold as the Mirage 2000-09, would it not be a better option to ascertain whether any country wants to sell some or all of its inventory at a more competitive cost than that represented by the upgrade, questions the anti-upgrade lobby within the IAF.

India had reportedly talked to Qatar, which was looking to sell its Mirage 2000-09 fleet of 12 aircraft. The talks failed as Qatar's price expectations could not be met. Some senior officers are of the view that this setback does not preclude the attempt to identify another source, provided that the price is reasonable and that there is sufficient service life remaining to justify the acquisition.

India must negotiate and conclude contracts for the upgrade of Mirage fighters and procurement of weapons simultaneously, advise senior IAF officers. Otherwise, they warn, weapon manufacturers will dictate their 'expensive terms' later.



The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

 

[Blackwater]

The IAF dilemma: To upgrade its Mirage fleet or buy new jets

The Indian Air Force has a dilemma: should it go ahead and upgrade it's 51-strong Mirage fleet or purchase new fighters for Mirages' specific role? Talks between the Ministry of Defence and Mirage's French manufacturer Dassault are in the final stage and a decision is expected soon.

Upgrade of the French Dassault M2000 fighter aircraft would cost a whopping Rs 14,400 crore but it does not include the cost of procuring new weaponry worth Rs 80 crore.

If the Defence Ministry and the manufacturer sign the agreement, Dassault will supply four upgraded aircraft and kits to upgrade the remaining 47 aircraft to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Roughly Rs 4,500 crore is to be spent by HAL on the upgrade. It will also charge nearly Rs 900 crore for the furnished items.

A section of the IAF top brass feels that the upgrade cost is too high as the officers say that buying a new fighter would work out cheaper.

"Avionics and weaponry are complementary but their capabilities don't always match. The upgrade process is very complicated and thorough and has to be very convincing for it to be approved," said Air Marshal (retired) D. Keeler - hero of the 1965 and 1971 Indo-Pak wars. Mirage fighters were inducted in the IAF during Keeler's tenure in the mid-eighties. "Upgradation is always planned on the future lifespan of the airframe and engines," he added.

New weapons required to be fitted in the proposed upgraded aircraft include BVR (RF) MICA missiles, IR MICA missiles, conventional weapons and smart guided weapons with standoff capabilities, and air-to-surface weapons.

Incidentally, Dassault fighter Rafale has been shortlisted along with Eurofighter Typhoon in the over $10.5 billion deal for 126 Medium Multi Role-Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). Two American, one Swedish and one Russian rival firm are out of the race.

The Eurofighter is said to having an edge over Rafale. Dassault sees this as a 'win-win situation': If it fails to get the MMRCA deal, it is confident of clinching the Mirage upgrade deal. Purchasing new Mirages is not an option now as France has closed the production line, presumably to avoid competition between Mirage 2000 and the Rafale. When last produced in 2007, the estimated price of a Mirage 2000-09 was Rs 30-35 million.

The first batch of 40 Mirage aircraft was delivered during 1986-87, the second batch of nine during 1988-89 and the third batch of 10 aircraft during 2003-04. Of these 59 aircraft, only 51 are now in the fleet. The rest have been lost.

The proposal is to upgrade all 51 aircraft to extend their operational life and update their capability. The 'cardinal points' of the proposal include: no airframe modifications, no changes to major aircraft systems, no modification to equipment bays, limited cockpit modifications, minimum retrofit line modification facilities/activities, and, most significantly, it does not cover the cost of supply of weapons.

As the purpose of the upgrade is to bring the IAF's Mirage 2000 fleet up to the standard of the Mirage 2000-5 Mk2, which is used by the French and sold as the Mirage 2000-09, would it not be a better option to ascertain whether any country wants to sell some or all of its inventory at a more competitive cost than that represented by the upgrade, questions the anti-upgrade lobby within the IAF.

India had reportedly talked to Qatar, which was looking to sell its Mirage 2000-09 fleet of 12 aircraft. The talks failed as Qatar's price expectations could not be met. Some senior officers are of the view that this setback does not preclude the attempt to identify another source, provided that the price is reasonable and that there is sufficient service life remaining to justify the acquisition.

India must negotiate and conclude contracts for the upgrade of Mirage fighters and procurement of weapons simultaneously, advise senior IAF officers. Otherwise, they warn, weapon manufacturers will dictate their 'expensive terms' later.



The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

I think we should ask pak land wat to buy ? They got better procurement policy than us or wait wait another 10 yrs to decide:shocked:mg:akistan:akistan:

 

[JBH22]

Why not go to Israel for the upgrade they have a history of operating French planes?

 

[Patriot]

IAF's Mirage-2000 upgrade: A bitter pill to swallow

The Indian Air Force's plans to upgrade its fleet of 51 Mirage-2000 H to Mk-2 standards for a whooping $2.2 billion has come across lot of criticism. Even certain IAF staff feel that the upgrade should not go ahead. Primary reason for the same is the high price charged by Dassault Aviation. Some argue that India is better off buying new fighters at this price. Other reasons include no structural changes and improvements or new engines. Also India will have to buy the MBDA MICA missile (450 of them) for around Rs.5000 crore which is not included in upgrade price.

But given the fact of declining aircraft strength of the Indian Airforce and rapid improvement in capabilities of its rivals more particularly China, India has no other option but to go for the upgrade. The upgrade will make the Mirage-2000 comparable to the most advance American fighters like the F-16 Block-60 and F/A-18 Super Hornet. Improvements like the helmet mounted display, full digital cockpit, better EW capabilty, etc. If India wants to have the same capability by buying new jets than it will have to spend almost $4-5 billion, that twice what it is spending now. Ofcourse the aircraft will last twice as long but new aircrafts will take time which India can't afford. The upgrade is expected to be finished by 2015. Also the upgraded Mirage-2000"²s will be in service till 2035 which is approximately the same time frame from when 4th generation technology will start becoming obsolete.

France is a very smart country who plays her cards right (but still rarely wins the game), they know that India will have to upgrade the Mirage-2000"²s. They are also very desperate to sell the Rafale which is front runner for the mammoth MMRCA tender. Dassault Aviation has played it smart by charging extensively high for the Mirage deal which it had in its bag since the start. I won't be surprised if they charge relatively much lower for the Rafael in MMRCA to ensure it has a overwhelming price advantage over the Eurofighter Typhoon. Also the MBDA MICA's are compatible with the Rafael. Whatever it is, India will have to swallow that bitter pill.

 

[SpArK]

Defence brass split over French Mirage upgrade deal​

New Delhi, June 19 (IANS) With the $2.4 billion Mirage-2000 upgrade deal with France in its final stages, India's defence ministry and air force top brass seem to be split over the high costs and likely benefits to the country's future air power needs.

With the contract papers said to be headed to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), the volume against the deal is rising, top officials told IANS here.

Among points of contention is the deal cost to upgrade the 52 Mirage-2000 combat aircraft by French company Dassault Aviation. Taking into account $1 billion for new weapons and another $500 million for new facilities at Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the upgrade, the cost could rise to $3.9 billion, the officials said.

"The upgrade programme will cost the Indian exchequer $7.9 million per Mirage-2000 aircraft. But India is buying 126 new Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) under a $10.4 billion tender that is to be finalised in this fiscal.

"The cost of the new fourth generation fighter jet works out to $7.9 million per plane. Is it prudent to pay the same price for a swanky new plane and just an upgrade programme for a 25-year-old plane?" said a senior defence ministry official.

Confirming the raging debate, Indian Air Force (IAF) officers said this was the reason the contract has not seen the light of the day yet, though it has been in the pipeline for years now.

There was a strong push for the deal when French President Nicolas Sarkozy's visited India in December 2010 and the country's Defence Minister Gerard Longuet was here in May this year.

Among the upgrades planned for Mirage-2000 under the contract include night vision goggle compatible glass cockpit, advanced navigational systems, advanced Identify Friend or Foe (IFF) system, advanced multi-mode multi-layered radar, fully integrated electronic warfare suite and advanced beyond visual range (BVR) capability. The new weapons include 450 MICA interception and aerial combat missiles.

French firms Thales and MBDA will be the weapons systems integrator and missiles supplier respectively.

"In fact, Thales and MBDA were initially quoting much more," says IAF officers. "But even at this cost and age, an upgraded Mirage can operate efficiently for another 20 years and still be a potent, frontline fighter jet. The upgrade of the Mirages would provide it a fourth generation combat jet capability," the officers told IANS, requesting anonymity as they were not authorised to speak to the media.

India bought 52 Mirage-2000s in 1982 and fully inducted these into the IAF in 1986. Two of the planes will be upgraded in France, another two in India with French help, and the rest 48 entirely by HAL.

Another issue is the nine-year timeframe given by Dassault, the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) of Mirages, to complete the upgrade.



"In comparison, the same firm is quoting deliveries of just six years if it wins the MMRCA deal, on the lines of what its competitor in the final fray, EADS, too has quoted," officials noted.

"Not only will the upgraded Mirages cost as much as a brand new twin-engine fourth generation fighter, but some of the Mirages will be 35 years old by the time they are upgraded," they said.

Dassault, officials said, had in the original 1982 contract guaranteed 30-year plus 10-year life for the planes. "Thus the upgraded Mirages will have just another five years of service left, provided there are no time or cost over-runs. Then why spend a fortune?" they asked.

IAF officers also noted that Israel had also offered to upgrade the Mirages, but at half the price. But the defence ministry quoted an old policy that only OEMs could carry out an upgrade.

"The same ministry has called for competitive bids in recent months for equally complex fighter aircraft, particularly those from Russian or erstwhile Soviet stable," they said.

Mangalorean.Com- Serving Mangaloreans Around The World!

 

[Zebra]

The Vajra Upgrades

Word is that the upgrade will bring India's Mirages to the full Mirage 2000v5 Mk 2 standard, including a new RDY-3 radar with greater air-air and air-ground capability, a new all-digital cockpit, and improved electronic warfare systems. These will be tied into a joint tactical information data link system (JTIDS, usually Link 16 compatible but not always), plus helmet-mounted sights for wide-angle heat-seeking missiles. As part of the upgrade, the aircraft will also be equipped with MBDA's Mica family of medium range missiles.

MBDA was probably unamused by India Defence's December 2006 description of its wares as "an advanced medium-range missile that is the French counterpart to the more capable American AMRAAM missile" . While the MICA's radar-guided version does have mediocre range, it also has a heat-seeking IR version that offers a potent medium range 'no warning' targeting option. In either version, it's an improvement. MICA would replace both India's existing radar-guided Super 350 MRAAM and Magic-II short-range infrared missiles, offering better performance and range.

Work on the upgrades would be performed by a French-Indian consortium including Dassault (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator), MBDA (missiles) and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

http://http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/indias-fighter-upgrades-mirage-2000s-next-02891/

 

[Zebra]

Better buy some Rafale M for Navy and Gripen NG ( 50 aircrafts ) for IAF , keep the M-2000 as it is ( no upgrades for M-2000 ).

 

[Armand2REP]

"The cost of the new fourth generation fighter jet works out to $7.9 million per plane. Is it prudent to pay the same price for a swanky new plane and just an upgrade programme for a 25-year-old plane?" said a senior defence ministry official.

This report is all over the map. So it costs $7.9 million per plane which comes out to $403 million for the actual work which is almost half what they charge the ALA at €10 million per unit. The rest of the cost must include service life contracts and a production/maintenance facility at HAL. I have heard two numbers, one of $2.4 and one of $2.1 billion which is almost the exact difference in the MICA cost. What makes this deal so costly and time consuming is GoI demands for domestic work when it could be knocked out in a couple years and under a billion if done in France.

 

[ace009]

$7.5 million per aircraft for upgrades? that still does not take it up to Rs 10,000 crores. where is the rest going? to the Babus? How about buying new 4th gen aircraft for rs 10,000 crores instead?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

$7.5 million per aircraft for upgrades? that still does not take it up to Rs 10,000 crores. where is the rest going? to the Babus? How about buying new 4th gen aircraft for rs 10,000 crores instead?

The numbers in this article does not add up at all, 3.9billion for upgrade,weapons and facilities! These Europeans have no cost conscious what so ever, 3.9billion for upgrades, 90-110million per plain in MRCA! GOODNESS gracious me, i think it would be cheaper to develop and twin engine aircraft in India and mass produce it.

I guess they have to move their factory to China to reduce their cost!lol However Euro-fighter has claimed that it will move part of its international production to India if its chosen.

 

[Solid Beast]

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[JBH22]

Either you have the money to keep the Mirage 2000 afloat, you throw them to rot, or you keep flying them without upgrades. Where is the big dilemma? It's an easy decision. GoI should spare everyone the headache, put their calculators and pens down, and make a damn decision. Time is the costliest commodity.

For the price of the upgrade its being quipped that you can get new planes hence the dilemma

 

[weg]

$7.5 million per aircraft for upgrades? that still does not take it up to Rs 10,000 crores. where is the rest going? to the Babus? How about buying new 4th gen aircraft for rs 10,000 crores instead?

The article has got the decimal point in the wrong place. The upgrade price is $79million not $7.9 million, in other words the same price as a new aircraft. The are French, what do you expect?

 

[plugwater]

The article has got the decimal point in the wrong place. The upgrade price is $79million not $7.9 million, in other words the same price as a new aircraft. The are French, what do you expect?

Cost of a new Rafale and mirage upgrade are almost same!!!

 

[gogbot]

This deal is retarded the prices are just exorbitant. Buying more Rafales or EF's makes more sense then this

 

[weg]

Cost of a new Rafale and mirage upgrade are almost same!!!

Its what happens when you depend on a sole supplier, they are using it as a bargaining chip to force the purchase of Rafale.

The F-35, BTW, has a marketplace of competing suppliers for future upgrades. Two drop in replacement engines for instance.