J20 Stealth Fighter

tanlixiang28776

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The only salvageable parts of the F 117 would be the RAM coating as the electronics and airframe were destroyed, or left in Belgrade. Even if Chinese agents had acquired RAM samples the RAM itself has several issues which would make it incompatible on the J-20

The F 117 used a heavy ferric based RAM that limited it to subsonic speeds and required long airstrips for takeoff.

The video of the flight of the J-20 shows that it takes off in around 300 meters without afterburner.

either


A. China has super advanced engines that can lift an estimated 70,000 pound bird in short distances without afterburner. :eek:mg:
or
B. China had to invent dramatically lighter RAM to coat the J-20 with.

Either way Chinese engineers had to invent new RAM ,engines, or both for the J-20. :peace:

Another problem with this type of painted on RAM is that it is easily damaged even by rain. This problem is also seen on the f 22. On many photos we see people on the J-20 to replace braking chutes. This would severely damage the J-20's RAM if it was based on the F 117 type of RAM or even if China had F-22 style RAM. The only stealth fighter that has solved this problem would be the F-35 with its integrated RAM.

A. China has invented integrated RAM like the F-35
or
B. U.S has operational F-35s that China or another country has shot down allowing them study that as well. :suspicious:
or
C. China has access to mysterious alien technology:alien:

Guess which ones more likely



here are my sources

http://www.1888articles.com/iron-ball-paint-08h6jg2.html ( f 117 RAM )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWhssJVlui8 ( J-20 first flight)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-35-design.htm ( F-35 RAM )

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-J-XX-Prototype.html ( most non-biased article I could find)

I would love for someone to disprove my reasoning with logical arguments and articles with no political affiliations and questionable sources. Please no one liners.

P.S. Being a true patriot means acknowledging ones country's shortcomings and fixing them instead of mocking another country's achievements instead of learning from them.:pray2:
 
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Tolaha

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Noshir Gowadia, 66, made profits of at least USD$110,000 (£68,000) by selling classified engine technology that China needed for its design of a stealth cruise missile that could evade infra-red detection, the court heard.

An Indian contribution to stealth technology that the Chinese couldn't do without! :)


If the yankees secret box can be pried open my Chinese hard cash, just imagine what it would do to Indian secrets?
 

tanlixiang28776

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No offence KSRaj but you probably shouldn't be proud of Indian borns living in America selling secrets to India's competitor for chump change. ( He is still viewed as an Indian whether most people like it or not)

If the the B-2 bomber doors did help the J-20 development than thanks but its still curious to see how much China can buy for just 110,000 dollars these days.

Ultimately I guess people just love money more than their countries.
 
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black eagle

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This is said to be a new stealth jet concept design, submitted by Hongdu Aviation Industry (Group) Corporation, China





 
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EpochTimes

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Whether PRC got help from Mig or some of its engineers or not, one thing is clear India has a much more capable and succesful partner in Sukhoi. Plus, PAK FA has the complete backing of Russian govt and possibly its entire aviation industry, not just some consultants one may hire.
 

gogbot

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Some notable features of J-20 as put down by many analysts:

1. Access to off-board space, ground, and air-based sensors, particularly a capable AEW/AWACS system with a well-trained crew and robust data links.

2. Effective sensor fusion to allow the pilot to make use of all this information, as well as information from on-board sensors.

3. An integrated EW system.

4. An AESA radar with a high level of reliability.

5. Training and doctrine necessary to make effective use of all this data and equipment. Plenty of flight hours for pilot flight training, too.

6. Powerful engines (ideally capable of supercruise), with a high mean time between overhaul and failures.

7. An airframe with low-observable characteristics.

8. A robust air-to-air refueling capability (equipment, readiness, training).

9. Sophisticated and reliable precision guided weaponry.

10. A robust software and hardware upgrade road-map, to keep this plane effective in five, 10 and 30 years.

11. Maintenance procedures in place to keep the plane operating with a high mission-capable rate. And of course equipment that has been designed with easy access for maintenance and easy access for electronic diagnostic tools, and ideally a sophisticated health-usage monitoring system (HUMS).

http://www.subcontinentaldef.net/2011/01/j-20-makes-pentagon-to-panic.html


What kind of analysts write this kind of Bullshit ?
 

chex3009

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Stealth-Espionage Claims Disputed in China

China Experts dispute Stealth-theft claims


An undated picture purporting to show the J-20 in flight in Chengdu.

BEIJING—Chinese military experts disputed that China obtained secret U.S. technology to develop its new stealth fighter, saying the country relied on homegrown innovation to produce a plane that has drawn new international attention to its military advances.

Speculation that China obtained U.S. stealth technology has been circulating since aviation experts noted that the J-20 stealth-fighter prototype looked like a larger version of the U.S. F-22 Raptor, currently the world's only fully operational stealth fighter. The twin-engine J-20 made its first public test flight two weeks ago during a visit to China by U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

On Sunday, the Associated Press quoted Balkan military officials saying China likely learned some of its stealth technology from pieces its agents obtained of the wreckage of a U.S. F-117 shot down by a Serbian antiaircraft missile during the 1999 Kosovo war. The F-117 Nighthawk was the first U.S. stealth fighter.

Then, on on Monday, a former U.S. B-2 stealth bomber engineer, Noshir Gowadia was sentenced by a U.S. court in Hawaii to 32 years in prison for selling stealth-missile technology, with potential applications on fighter jets, to China. Mr. Gowadia's son, Ashton Gowadia, said his father plans to appeal.

The elder Mr. Gowadia moved from India to the U.S. for postgraduate work in the 1960s and became a U.S. citizen about a decade later.He helped to design the B-2 propulsion system when he worked at Northrop Corp., now known as Northrop Grumman Corp., in 1968 to 1986. He was arrested in 2005. A federal jury in Honolulu found that he pocketed about $110,000 to help China design a cruise-missile exhaust nozzle that would give off less heat, letting it evade infrared radar detection and U.S. heat-seeking missiles.

He wasn't accused of assisting with the J-20 program, though prosecutors said he visited an aviation design facility in Chengdu, the western city where the stealth fighter was tested. Aviation experts have noted that the J-20 prototype that made the test flight had unusual exhaust nozzles, which appear to be designed to prevent it from emitting enough heat to be detected by infrared radar.

The Chinese experts rejected the idea that China obtained American technology either from espionage or from the wreckage of the F-117—which they said used less advanced technology than what China has developed—although some acknowledged that China may have used publicly available source materials.

"China is completely capable of making its own stealth fighter jet," said Li Daguang, a professor at the People's Liberation Army's National Defense University. "I think we developed the J-20 largely on our own research, but at the same time learning from existing foreign models. Many countries have already possessed stealth-jet technology....Stealth materials are not considered highly sophisticated or confidential at all."

China's Defense Ministry and Air Force declined to comment on any of the reports, as did China Aviation Industry Corp., which is developing the J-20, and the Chengdu Aircraft and Design Institute, where it is being tested. Asked about the reports at a routine briefing, Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said, "I am not aware of relevant information."

Current and former U.S. officials also said in 2009 that computer spies had repeatedly broken into the program to develop the F-35, the next generation of U.S. stealth fighter. The former officials said at the time they thought the attacks came from China. Beijing has denied involvement in such cyberattacks.

Song Xiaojun, a former naval officer who is now a military commentator for Chinese state television, attributed the reports that China appropriated its stealth technology to those who "just envy and hate us for having developed the jet, for we made something they thought we'd never be able to make. I'm saying that I'm sure the technology is 100% Chinese."

On display at Air Show China in Zuhai late last year: this CIA-style drone with missiles.​

The F-117 was developed in secrecy in the 1970s and began service in 1983. It was not completely invisible to radar, but was very hard to detect because of its unique radar-absorbent coating. The one shot down over Serbia was the first to be hit. The F-117 was retired in 2008.

The AP quoted Adm. Davor Domazet-Loso, Croatia's military chief of staff during the Kosovo war, as saying intelligence reports in 1999 described Chinese agents "criss-crossing" the region where the F-117 went down, and buying bits of wreckage from local farmers.

"We believe the Chinese used those materials to gain an insight into secret stealth technologies ... and to reverse-engineer them," he was quoted as saying.

Parts of the F-117 are still exhibited at Belgrade's aviation museum.

Wang Yanan, associate editor in chief at China's Aerospace Knowledge magazine, said there was no point in China acquiring wreckage parts of the F-117, as its technology was already outdated in 1999.

Still, other analysts point to signs of Chinese interest in the F-117. Andrei Chang, the Hong Kong-based editor of Kanwa Defense, an online publication about military affairs, said China had also built a scale model of the F-117 at an aviation research institute in the city of Luoyang in Henan province.

"This is the fundamental reason why it took China only a very short period of time to develop several types of stealth materials in Beijing," he said.

He included in an emailed statement what he said was a satellite photograph of the F-117 model, taken in May 2010.

The B-2, which was developed in the 1980s and first unveiled in 1988, is still used as a long-range strategic bomber and has never been shot down.

—Yoli Zhang and Juliet Ye contributed to this article.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704013604576103873339685848.html?mod=WSJINDIA__MIDDLTopStories
 
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tanlixiang28776

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What kind of analysts write this kind of Bullshit ?
Wow both a one liner and vulgar. No offence but this kind of response will not convince anyone of your views that the J-20 will not incorporate these features.

If you disagree with these analysts then make a reasonable response with reliable sources instead of simply swearing. Prove to me that China cannot currently or in the future achieve these features in the J-20

I would be happy to talk reasonably with you if you can do the same for me.
 
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mattster

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Gowadia - what a piece of shit. For an Indian to sell military secrets to China. it simply cant go lower.

Hope he rots in jail.
 

gogbot

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Wow both a one liner and vulgar. No offence but this kind of response will not convince anyone of your views that the J-20 will not incorporate these features.

If you disagree with these analysts then make a reasonable response with reliable sources instead of simply swearing. Prove to me that China cannot currently or in the future achieve these features in the J-20

I would be happy to talk reasonably with you if you can do the same for me.
You misunderstand , My issue was not that China could not produce any of these systems.
I all likelihood over the next 10 years , mos to the features described will become reality.

The BS i was referring to do was the certainty with which these capabilities were pointed out.
All from looking at photo's that tell about nothing, with no spec sheet or even a mention of the J-20 capabilities , how can anyone reach that conclusion.

Other than the AESA radar(which is a must) , i can't see how any of the other features were determined.
 

vikramrana_1812

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What The J-20 Says About China's Defense Sector


Tai Ming Cheung is an associate research scientist at the University of California Institute on Global Conflict and Cooperation in San Diego. His book, Fortifying China, examines the transformation and workings of the Chinese defense economy.

The stealthy online unveiling of China's next-generation fighter aircraft, dubbed the J-20, represents an important marker in the accelerating development of China's defense science, technology, and innovation capabilities. Although it will likely take another five-to-ten years before the aircraft is ready for serial production and operational service, its unofficial public debut serves notice of China's intent to become a world-class military power within the next decade.

Strategic Significance of the J-20 Program

The Chinese military aviation industry has made impressive strides over the past 15 years in narrowing the technological gap with the world's advanced aviation powers. In the mid-1990s, China was struggling to produce third-generation, 1970s-era combat aircraft that were 20-to-30 years behind their global counterparts. After major structural reforms and considerable assistance from Russia, China is now able to field fighter aircraft such as the Chengdu J-10 and Shenyang J-11 that are only 10-to-15 years behind the most advanced Western models. The J-20 will reduce this gap even further.

China's military aviation industry is now a prospective candidate to join an exclusive group of countries able to indigenously develop a stealth aircraft. The only established member of this elite set is the U.S., which has successfully developed and fielded a number of stealth aircraft over the past two decades. Russia is in the early stages of test-flying its first stealthy aircraft, called the T-50. Other advanced military aviation powers such as the U.K., France, and Sweden that potentially have the technological capabilities to develop stealth programs have opted not to because of the huge costs involved, uncertain sales prospects, and their considerable investment in more traditional non-stealthy fighter aircraft projects.

Besides China, no other country in the Asia-Pacific region has the technological and industrial capabilities to pursue a stealth fighter program. Japan has built a scaled mock-up of a stealth fighter, but it has yet to make any significant investments in conducting serious research and development in this area and most likely will seek instead to purchase the F-35 stealth fighter from the U.S. India signed an agreement with Russia in December 2010 to acquire fifth-generation fighter aircraft based on the T-50. Other regional powers, especially Taiwan, may now have to reconsider their long-term plans for the modernization of their air forces in anticipation of China's arrival into the stealth fighter club before the end of this decade.

Technological Breakthrough?

Associated Press

While web images of the J-20 offer some tantalizing glimpses of its design profile, there are critical knowledge gaps that make it difficult to determine whether the aircraft represents an incremental or breakthrough technological innovation or something in-between. One big question concerns how stealthy the aircraft is. This refers to its ability to minimize its radar-cross section through its architectural design and radar-absorbent composite materials. Another issue concerns the sophistication and integration of avionics capabilities. The latest generations of state-of-the-art Western fighter aircraft are now being equipped with Active Electronically Scanned Array radar and advanced sensors and there are few indications that the Chinese defense industry has been able to master this technology. Additionally, stealth aircraft are supposed to be exceptionally maneuverable and able to cruise at high speeds because of high-performance vectoring engines.

If the J-20 were able to meet all or even some of these requirements, it would be a remarkable breakthrough technological accomplishment. While the Chinese aviation industry has made some important progress in the fields of composite materials, avionics and sensors, design processes and propulsion technology over the past decade, these technological capabilities and standards remain considerably short of world-class standards. For example, the Chinese aero-engine sector has yet to begin serial production of its own high-performance turbofan engines such as the WS-10 even though it claims to have mastered development a few years ago.

To address these weaknesses in its research, development and engineering capabilities, China has turned to foreign sources, especially Russia, for critical assistance. Without reliable Chinese aero-engines, China has had to import Russian engines to equip its mainstay J-10 and J-11 fighter fleet. Of particular relevance for the J-20 program was China's request to Russia for Type 117S aero-engines during annual defense technology cooperation talks between the two countries last year. These engines are being used on Russia's T-50 aircraft.

Reverse engineering is another technique extensively employed by the Chinese aviation industry to overcome technological hurdles and shorten development times. This includes cooperative deals with Russia in which the Chinese purchased licenses for production rights to produce Su-27 fighter aircraft in the late 1990s, and unauthorized reverse engineering of the same aircraft at the same time. Having access to foreign technologies and knowledge will allow China to mitigate the considerable developmental risks posed by an ambitious but technologically immature aviation industry.

State of China's Aviation Industry

After sixty years of struggle and stagnation, the Chinese aircraft industry has been experiencing a renaissance over the past decade. The industry is reaping record profits, receiving plentiful flows of orders, developing and producing new generations of advanced aircraft, and forging business and technology ties with some of the world's leading aircraft and aircraft-component firms.

This is a far cry from the end of the 1990s when the industry was a loss-making relic of the bygone central-planning era. The aviation industry, along with the rest of the defense economy, was severely impacted by the introduction of economic reforms in the late 1970s. Heavy cuts in defense spending and a sharp decline in support for the state sector led to a prolonged downturn during the 1980s and 1990s. The aviation industry's problems were exacerbated by the unwillingness of conservative defense industrial leaders to implement meaningful reforms to reduce enormous waste, inefficiency, and widespread obsolescence.

The inability of the aviation and defense industries to meet the modernization needs of the People's Liberation Army, or PLA, became a critical national security concern from the mid-1990s, as tensions intensified in the Taiwan Strait. In the late 1990s, the central authorities intervened and carried out sweeping reforms of the defense and aviation sectors:

* Shifting from Administrative to Corporate Mechanisms: The outdated administrative management structure was replaced by new corporate arrangements intended to foster market competition. Two new aviation conglomerates, Aviation Industries Corp. of China (AVIC) 1 and AVIC 2, were established and given considerable autonomy along with major industrial enterprises such as Chengdu Aircraft Corp., which is responsible for development of the J-20.
* Overhauling the Research and Development (R&D) Base: Reforms were launched to break down entrenched compartmentalization by integrating R&D and production activities. Funding for R&D activities was also revamped with more money going into viable high priority projects and the culling of lower priority and failing projects.
* Paying Attention to End-User Requirements: The aviation industry's blinkered technology-push approach to product development was wrestled open and the PLA, especially the air force, was given the lead role in setting and overseeing equipment research, development and evaluation.
* Changing the Leadership: Reform-minded technocrats took charge of the defense and aviation sectors and vigorously implemented far-reaching reforms, including slashing costs and laying off tens of thousands of workers.
* The implementation of these and other reforms created the conditions for a remarkable turnaround in the aviation industry's fortunes since the beginning of the 21st Century:
* Financial Performance: After more than a decade of losses, the aviation industry became profitable again in 2003 and has posted record earnings and revenue growth annually since then. In 2009, AVIC had profits of US$1.4 billion and revenue of $28 billion, and was also included for the first time on the Fortune 500 list of top global companies
* R&D and Innovation: Heavy investment in R&D has led to a strong surge in innovation activities, especially with the establishment of dozens of research laboratories and expansion of aviation universities and institutes. By 2009, AVIC had received more than 5,300 patents, the vast majority of which were obtained in the last few years.
* Product Development: An extensive range of military aircraft from fighters to electronic warfare aircraft has emerged from the Chinese aviation industry over the past 10 years. Chinese air force officials proudly stated that more than 90 percent of the 15 types of military aircraft that took part in the 60th national day anniversary fly past in October 2009 were indigenously developed products.

While these performance indicators show impressive gains, the aviation industry still suffers from serious structural weaknesses that threaten its long-term ability to narrow the technological gap and catch up with the top tier of global aviation powers. The aero-engine sector, as already pointed out, has struggled mightily to develop and produce state-of-the-art high performance power plants.

Another major structural weakness, and a legacy of the Maoist past, is the widespread duplication and balkanization of industrial and research facilities. The aviation industry has more than 130 large and medium-sized factories and research institutes employing 250,000 workers scattered across the country, especially in the deep interior, and often possessing the same manufacturing and research attributes. But intense rivalry, local protectionism, and huge geographical distances mean that there is little cooperation or coordination among these facilities, preventing the ability to reap economies of scale and engage in innovation clustering, and also hampering efforts at consolidation.

The extended cut-off in ties between the Chinese and Western military aircraft industries since the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown has also contributed to its technological weakness. But Beijing has been able to mitigate the severity of these restrictions by forging a close relationship with Russia that has allowed the Chinese aviation industry to gain access to state-of-the-art weapons, and technology and knowledge transfers through off-the shelf purchases, offsets and license production arrangements.

State of the Chinese Defense Industry

The Chinese defense industry is making a concerted effort to build a strong and capable indigenous innovation capacity, but overall progress is at an early stage and focused predominantly on incremental and sustaining types of activities. More advanced forms of innovation, especially disruptive approaches that would lead to important defense technological advances, are likely to be beyond China's reach for the near to medium term, although there may be exceptions in select high-priority areas that enjoy access to ample funding, foreign knowledge and technologies, and leadership support. The J-20 program appears to be accorded this special status.

China has demonstrated that it can engage in radical defense innovation leading to significant technological breakthroughs if the country's security is considered to be in acute danger. This was achieved in the 1960s and 1970s with the development of nuclear weapons and strategic missiles. If China's leaders were to become as seriously alarmed again, this could see another concerted drive to attain breakthroughs in critical defense technological capabilities. This may have occurred in the 1990s with the development of long-range precision ballistic missile capabilities to counter military contingencies involving Taiwan, especially to deny access to the U.S. navy to waters near China.

China's present approach appears to be the selective targeting of a few critical areas for accelerated development while the rest of the defense economy pursues a more moderate pace of transformation. But as the country grows more prosperous, more technologically capable, and its security interests become more global and complex, this focused strategy is likely to be broadened. The defense electronics, aviation, shipbuilding and select portions of the space industries are leading the way in the Chinese defense economy's transformation, especially in forging close ties between the civilian and defense economies, access and linkages with global production and innovation networks, the building of innovation capabilities, and ability to adapt to market competition.

To fully understand China's defense innovation potential requires the examination of a broad range of tangible and intangible science, technology and innovation indicators. This includes not only hard performance measures such as research-and-development budgets, corporate investment, the output of patents, publications, and products–and the size of the science and technology workforce–but also soft process-related factors such as leadership, organizational flexibility, marketing, entrepreneurial skills, risk cultures, and governance factors.

The Chinese defense economy has been investing heavily in the construction of a comprehensive and high-quality innovation apparatus since the late 1990s that is intended to nurture the ability to conduct disruptive technological innovation R&D. This involves the establishment of large numbers of research laboratories, training a large pool of new generations of scientists and engineers, and forging a robust regulatory regime of standards, regulations, and rules designed to impose discipline, oversight, and raise quality control in a previously haphazardly run system. These structural and process reforms are likely to bear fruit over the next decade and will play an influential role in advancing the defense economy's innovation performance.

http://pakistaniglobe.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-j-20-says-about-chinas-defense.html
 

vikramrana_1812

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'Snowy Owl' Jet Project: China's Latest J-20 Surprise


  • Ju Lichyun
  • 2011-01-16
  • 15:03 (GMT+8)

Picured: The purposed "Snowy Owl" fighter is said to be capable of vertical take-off and landing (VTOL). (Internet Photo)

Pictured: China's purported J-15 stealth fighter, nicknamed "Snowy Owl" by military enthusiasts. (Internet Photo)


According to an image revealed by China's state-run TV station, the country is developing a fourth generation fighter. Nicknamed Snowy Owl by Chinese military enthusiasts, the appearance of the jet fighter is similar to the F-35 made by the United States defense contractor Lockheed Martin.
The J-20 stealth fighter is not the last Chinese technological development which will astonish the United States, one Chinese netizen said in an online message; Snowy Owl is just another example.
China is secretly developing a triplane-canard-configurated fighter that has a totally different architecture to that of the J-20, CCTV was quoted by Hong Kong-based Sing Tao Daily as reporting. Some Chinese online military experts believe that the fighter is very likly to be the Snowy Owl, currently being developed by the AVIC Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SIC).
Online information regarding the SIC says that it is manufacturing a new type of aircraft whose design uses triplane canard configuration, Chinese netizens reported.
The aircraft has a fixed vertical wing, and the engine has rhomboidal nozzles, according to the CCTV report, adding that the design renders the aircraft lighter than most of the fourth generation fighters.


http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20110116000014
 

p2prada

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That makes it a possible 3rd fifth gen fighter development program.

Expensive or hyped beyond measure??? Time will tell.
 

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