Is Russia still our friend? Poll

Is Russia still our friend ?


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Zebra

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first of all we could also be part of f35 program but we didn't choose to and russian also need our money for their T50 project where lots of complain coming from not sharing full technologies while we are partner in RnD.

Now USSR didn't enforce socialism on us but Nehru chose socialism. It's like same saying USA forced democracy on us while we chose that too or Govt at that time. So whole point of blaming russian for our own wrong decisions is out of my head thinking. Your funny as Iran was in USA camp before 1979 so what they achieved?

What Philippines/Pakistani achieved ? No one can help you if you are not willing to help yourself and please don't compare india with japan as japan was the most industrialized country in 20th century start while india was nowhere to found.

you can't compare apple with oranges.
In 2015, don't take such wrong decisions again.

This time stay away from Russia.

And yeah, as you said......."No one can help you if you are not willing to help yourself". I agree with it.
 

Khagesh

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Speaking of techs people often forget that a lot of the so called modern inventions came from the the West(mainly USA). Today the Internet and availability of the pc to the masses can be directly attributed to the American inventors and entrepreneurs.
And anything that the American inventors and entrepreneurs made or invented can be directly attributed one Bihari teacher who developed counting.

So it is a non-sequitur.

Sequitur, sequituor, sequeteour How the hell is this thing pronounced.


If America had been indeed too shrewd with its technology they could have denied this to us. In fact one of the reasons why the US surged ahead of the USSR in the late Cold War period is because the USSR lagged behind in computer technology.
Deny karte to kya karte iska. Bhagwat Bhajan mein manjira bajate.

They have a choice to sell or to sanction. Both of which they exercised of their own free will.

Free Will, Free Will, Free Will, Manifest Destiny - wow. I think I impressed myself.
 

sgarg

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@Peter, the question is not about inventions and scientific progress. The question here is geo-politics and military blocs.

India never joined Western political and military bloc for one reason or the other. India did not join Warsaw pact either and adopted a neutral attitude in the cold war.
Has the situation changed far enough for India to join Western bloc now?? Did the Indian skin become white enough??

Trade cannot be substituted for political alignment. If trade was such a prominent factor, China would be India's biggest friend. Obviously nobody can say that.

So India has developed good economic relationship with the West. Is it reason enough to assume strategic alignment? I doubt it.

The West has interests that are FUNDAMENTALLY INIMICAL TO INDIA. I just cannot see how India can put all its eggs in the Western basket.
 
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sorcerer

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Russian Foreign Ministry Notes Growing Military Cooperation With India
"Amid the pressures of anti-Russian sanctions imposed by the West cooperation continued to be stepped up with countries in Asia and the Pacific," the Foreign Ministry said.


Special attention was paid to enhancing returns from such cooperation for Russia's regions, those in the Far East first and foremost.

In relations with India there remained the high momentum of the dialogue within the framework of privileged strategic partnership. The Foreign Ministry recalled that the Russian-Indian summit in New Delhi on December 11, 2014 confirmed the new Indian leadership's commitment to stepping up bilateral relations.

"In the course of implementing a flagship project in the energy sphere — the construction of the Kudankulam nuclear power plant in India — the first unit went on stream and construction work at the second unit is now nearing completion."

Military and military-technical cooperation was stepped up systematically.

"Russia hosted joint military exercises by all arms and services; the aircraft carrier The Vikramaditya entered duty as part of India's Navy," the Foreign Ministry said.


Read more: Russian Foreign Ministry Notes Growing Military Cooperation With India / Sputnik India English - News, Opinion, Radio
 

Aravind Sanjeev

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Maybe Russia's newly profound relation with Pakistan and other eastern country (not calling Pakistan east) could be due to western isolation.
Also, it could also be because Russia-China relation is becoming more Beijing-centered.
Although, if you are to weigh Russia's relation b/w Pakistan and India, Pakistan is not likely to be a big problem.
Russia may not have received good for India's relation with western world after Modi.
 

Khagesh

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This thread has been fun. How life becomes easy with such easy question like - kya aap meri khujaogay. :D

Ok its like this Russians like ourselves and most of the rest of the world, were in the doghouse. Almost all of the world was just out of colonial rules and/or WW-2. Only the old powers were the ones that had still benefited out of WW-2.

Then the Chinese decided to hell with the rest of the world. We are the veto wielding middle kingdom and lets see who gives us what and for what reason and for how long. First it was the Soviets who approached. Chinion ko maza nahi aaya. So then came the Americans. Chinion ko maza aane laga and the Chinese blasted there bum, in Oct. 1964.

Indians ki phat gayi. Sab ne dekha bhi ki Indians ki phat gayi. Something had to be done.

So some knuckleheads from Jana Sangh, which had tasted some small but promising electoral successes for sometime decided to introduce a motion in the Parliament - Saalon hame bum banana chahiye (translates as let us make the bomb). Congress was in multiple minds and the motion fell through. Chacha had (luckily!!!???) died on May 27, 1964 that is before his bum-chums had blasted Chic-1 and perhaps the only straight thinker in Congress of the time, the LBS, was the leader. Something very strange happened. LBS despite the motion having fallen, stated in a speech that he and the great maverick, Homi J Bhabha had basically decided that we need to at least have the Peaceful Nuclear Explosion capability. PNE being one step just short of the real deal probably gave them the confidence and probably they hoped that they would buy some time to understand what the hell, India needed to do.

However US was in a full motion of its own. In January of 66 a report had been made by a former Yale Graduate Mr. Roswell Gilpatric who had joined The Pentagon to The Captain America which quoted as follows:
"Preventing the further spread of nuclear weapons is clearly in the national interest. "¦ the United States must, as a matter of great urgency, substantially increase the scope and intensity of our efforts if we are to have any hope of success. Necessarily, these efforts must be of three kinds: (a) negotiation of formal multilateral agreements; (b) the application of influence on individual nations considering nuclear weapons acquisition"¦ and (c) examples by our own policies and actions."
The uncompromising nuclear non proliferation stand was taken in all but name. The Captain America himself was weak in those days, bang in the middle of a 20 year Vietnam war and could not have said no, yes, whatever. Johnson had after all come as the knight who would extricate America from Vietnam with a grand win. And off course it being pointed out as National Interest by the Pentagon implies that the Old Captain America was being told by his constituents that 'Individual Nations' could not be allowed to share the nuclear technology. Nuke tech was the hottest things those days. Just like F-35 is today. And the means of forwarding National Interest was but off course the tried and tested 'Divide and Rule' where you deal with 'Individual Nations' in enlightned self-interest and all that.

My guess is that the target were Germany, Japan and India. Germany and Japan walked into it. We were too confused to make any kind of coherent move and got handed over to the doghouse :laugh:

Now as is the case with Seculars and modernists and holy people of pious intentions, the gang that supported Mr. Homi J. Bhabha, got him sent to, where else, The West. To scout for possibilities in this grand pursuit of pragmatic self-interest :taunt:. Bhabha actually claimed before the Americans that India can do it on its own in 18 months and further suggested that if the blueprints were shared then it could be done in 6 months. Formally a letter was handed over asking if the Plowshare experiment design could be shared + if some plutonium could be provided for experiments. Bhabha ji was a smart man but smart men often are over optimistic. The Americans knew that Bhabha was a smart man. LBS had also suggested that the known nucleaer powers - essentially US, should evolve some mechanism to protect non-nuclear states like off course India. Pakis too :p. They were probably guided by the Kennedy's 62 offer to Chacha for the nuclear bum. Off course nothing came of that offer. Bhabha ji also approached an India origin scientist in France for help in some trigger mechanisms. So basically our "Plans" were all out in the open even before we had begun.

Then came the war of 65 which unlike plans, the goddamned Indians won. Then LBS died in January 66. Then Homi J. Bhabha died in 66. And today some people claim that it was the Russians who killed LBS :flypig:.

Anyhow what people do not understand is that Indians are very protocol pasand people but they are not at all a formal type of people. The instructions by LBS to HJB was communicated by Akash Marg and no minutes or memos or orders were ever given. And based on the Akash Vani, our beloved HJB had actually put a few people incharge of a few things. Reminds you of the note from PVNR to ABV, right?

By 69 one final formal attempt was made and I am sure India knew that this is not going to work, asking for a formal nuclear umbrella from US. Off course it was refused. The atmosphere was getting created in favour of a new idea whose time had come. The Nixon Doctorine which talked of "Vietnamization of the Vietnam War". Basically it meant no nuke as before but you can buy a lot of conventional weapons to kill your own people or that of your neighbour for getting privilege to be first in the row when The West decides to distribute the Shahi Tukde. This was to relieve Captain America from the onerous responsibility of carrying the White Man's Burden of peacemaking do only peacekeeping. Noble yeh!!?? Only this new thing called peacekeeping can off course only be ensured by Color revolutions. Some people cannot see it even when its brightly painted for their benefit.

I wonder how many people know but there were about 3.5 lac south koreans sent over to Vietnam for whatever the Americans thought they were fit for.

Russians were the first to punch out of the dog house with full indenpendece. But independence costs something. Russians are paying that cost still. Chinese were their first to betray the rest of the world and today have joined Old Europeans and New Americans in exploiting the other 3/4th of the world.

I think India would also be able to punch out of this prison. I also think it will be completely out of our good luck. With no planning involved. There may be some Akash Vani and Akash Marg involved in all this though.

Chinese will ultimately realize that a concubine's life is not worth it.

Americans will have to eventually suck it. They will lose their concubine.

Europeans will just fade away into a happy life.
 
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SANITY

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I think I told you, this is not about ideology.

Power corrupts with time. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The USSR had a single party system. All the power was with the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. There was no opposition. There was no checks and balances.

India never followed this system. India has a multi-party democracy. Do you see why I am so happy that recently, despite there being no opposition in Lok Sabha, the Rajya Sabha has blocked at least one bill? That is called checks and balances.

Whatever economic policies a country follows, in case of India, India had every thing in place where the people of India got to decide who was elected, unlike the USSR.

Your claims that the USSR kept India poor is unfounded. It is we who should take responsibility for our failures, and pat ourselves on our back for our achievements.
I don't even blame British for our misfortunes and thus blaming Russia or USSR is not possible. Even if it is to be assumed that they aren't friend, they are certainly no enemy and more reliable than USA. Our failures are our own flaws that we need to amend and our achievments are our hardworks and rightousness.
 

Mad Indian

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Speaking of techs people often forget that a lot of the so called modern inventions came from the the West(mainly USA). Today the Internet and availability of the pc to the masses can be directly attributed to the American inventors and entrepreneurs. If America had been indeed too shrewd with its technology they could have denied this to us. In fact one of the reasons why the US surged ahead of the USSR in the late Cold War period is because the USSR lagged behind in computer technology.
Thats not how technology sharing works - US would not have curtailed any invention/innovation for long without suffering from losses, atleast the losses from omission/loss of opportunity to monetise the innovations/inventions. US must share its technologies if it wants to remain profitable and sustain its development.
 
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Samar Rathi

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In 2015, don't take such wrong decisions again.

This time stay away from Russia.

And yeah, as you said......."No one can help you if you are not willing to help yourself". I agree with it.
What would we achieve by staying away from Russia ?

While we can achieve a lot by doing business with them but that doesn't mean we can't be USA strategic ally in the same time.We have experience in that regard as look at Israel and Iran as we are strategic partner with Iran and natural partnership with Israel.

Weak nation has to choose but strong doesn't ,it's about time we start acting like one.
 

Mad Indian

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first of all we could also be part of f35 program but we didn't choose to and russian also need our money for their T50 project where lots of complain coming from not sharing full technologies while we are partner in RnD.
F35 program is not a strategic program like Pak Fa and cant be compared to the FGFA program. Will US let us in on their 6th gen program, or the F22 program? If not, then no - we dont have the same level of trust we have for the Russians or vice versa. You are the one who is comparing apples and oranges

Now USSR didn't enforce socialism on us but Nehru chose socialism. It's like same saying USA forced democracy on us while we chose that too or Govt at that time. So whole point of blaming russian for our own wrong decisions is out of my head thinking. Your funny as Iran was in USA camp before 1979 so what they achieved?
Most of the Russophiles have drunk too much poison of mother russia to the point of absurdity that it prevents them from thinking with objectivity.

Anyway, there were lot of shenanigans done by USSR in India, influencing it and what they did to prop up socialism in India. Anyway, you have to take my response in context to what I was replying- if US is to be responsible for Bhopal, then USSR should be held responsible for Socialism in India

KGB Diary | Sanjay Suri

http://www.southasianoutlook.com/issues/2005/october/books.html



The Hindu : International / India & World : How India became a battleground for CIA and KGB in the 1970s

What Philippines/Pakistani achieved ? No one can help you if you are not willing to help yourself and please don't compare india with japan as japan was the most industrialized country in 20th century start while india was nowhere to found.

you can't compare apple with oranges.
Wow. Ignorance is bliss is it not? Fun fact, Pakis had a lower poverty and a higher per capita income compared to India till 1991, until they started imploding because of their terrorism business and army corruption

Reg the Socialism being Indian fault, most of the Intellectual socialist dogs were planeted and nursed by USSR to influence Indian minds. It is partly at fault for our socialism

Anyway, an honest question to the russophiles here - would we have still opened our markets in 1991 had the USSR stayed united and had not fallen?

Answer that question and you will get my point. Lets see how honest you all are:rolleyes:
 
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Mad Indian

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And before people think that I am being incoherant - I am not. I am just stating that USSR was no magic ally and it just played us for its benefits and Russia is not better nor worse. People need to give up this nostalgia that USSR was somehow some altruistic friend with no ulterior reason for supporting us. India payed USSR for its help more than enough with our NAM shenanigans and our diplomatic actions.

No country in the world is altruistic and USSR was no different

Finally, we have no reason to choose US or Russia. If Russia can play along with both China and India, so can we - play along with both US and Russia to get the max out of both. But dont think for one second that either of them is doing us any favor(nor did USSR).
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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F35 program is not a strategic program like Pak Fa and cant be compared to the FGFA program. Will US let us in on their 6th gen program, or the F22 program? If not, then no - we dont have the same level of trust we have for the Russians or vice versa. You are the one who is comparing apples and oranges



Most of the Russophiles have drunk too much poison of mother russia to the point of absurdity that it prevents them from thinking with objectivity.

Anyway, there were lot of shenanigans done by USSR in India, influencing it and what they did to prop up socialism in India. Anyway, you have to take my response in context to what I was replying- if US is to be responsible for Bhopal, then USSR should be held responsible for Socialism in India

KGB Diary | Sanjay Suri

South Asian Outlook - An Independent Monthly



The Hindu : International / India & World : How India became a battleground for CIA and KGB in the 1970s



Wow. Ignorance is bliss is it not? Fun fact, Pakis had a lower poverty and a higher per capita income compared to India till 1991, until they started imploding because of their terrorism business and army corruption


Reg the Socialism being Indian fault, most of the Intellectual socialist dogs were planeted and nursed by USSR to influence Indian minds. It is partly at fault for our socialism

Anyway, an honest question to the russophiles here - would we have still opened our markets in 1991 had the USSR stayed united and had not fallen?

Answer that question and you will get my point. Lets see how honest you all are:rolleyes:
Important fact.
 

Singh

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And before people think that I am being incoherant - I am not. I am just stating that USSR was no magic ally and it just played us for its benefits and Russia is not better nor worse. People need to give up this nostalgia that USSR was somehow some altruistic friend with no ulterior reason for supporting us. India payed USSR for its help more than enough with our NAM shenanigans and our diplomatic actions.

No country in the world is altruistic and USSR was no different

Finally, we have no reason to choose US or Russia. If Russia can play along with both China and India, so can we - play along with both US and Russia to get the max out of both. But dont think for one second that either of them is doing us any favor(nor did USSR).
QFT. And may I also add, as long as we are growing at >8% all countries will want to ally with us.
 

NSG_Blackcats

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I agree with @Singh

As long as we grow at 7-10% , everyone will want to be with us. India will have one of the largest middle class. One more thing, if we grow at 8% we will have enough money to buy different hardware stuffs for our armed forces.

But we need to build of our own capacity. Currently Indian Navy is giving importance to it. No body is a permanent friend/foe (except Pakistan and China) but you can never trust USA.
 
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Samar Rathi

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F35 program is not a strategic program like Pak Fa and cant be compared to the FGFA program. Will US let us in on their 6th gen program, or the F22 program? If not, then no - we dont have the same level of trust we have for the Russians or vice versa. You are the one who is comparing apples and oranges



Most of the Russophiles have drunk too much poison of mother russia to the point of absurdity that it prevents them from thinking with objectivity.

Anyway, there were lot of shenanigans done by USSR in India, influencing it and what they did to prop up socialism in India. Anyway, you have to take my response in context to what I was replying- if US is to be responsible for Bhopal, then USSR should be held responsible for Socialism in India

KGB Diary | Sanjay Suri

South Asian Outlook - An Independent Monthly



The Hindu : International / India & World : How India became a battleground for CIA and KGB in the 1970s



Wow. Ignorance is bliss is it not? Fun fact, Pakis had a lower poverty and a higher per capita income compared to India till 1991, until they started imploding because of their terrorism business and army corruption

Reg the Socialism being Indian fault, most of the Intellectual socialist dogs were planeted and nursed by USSR to influence Indian minds. It is partly at fault for our socialism

Anyway, an honest question to the russophiles here - would we have still opened our markets in 1991 had the USSR stayed united and had not fallen?

Answer that question and you will get my point. Lets see how honest you all are:rolleyes:
F35 is not strategic program like pak fa ? Do explain more o_O

Yes we have more trust on Russians so who is denying that?

Russophiles ? :D

Wow so how many of our nuclear scientist killed by CIA (can you count ? )

Pakistan economy got hit in 1971 as their Human resources got halves and they were pretty much using Bangladeshis as Britain were using India pre 1947 and their so called friend USA didn't save them but only saved west pakistan which was crucial to fight USSR so pakistan used USA or USA used pakistan ?



Now tell me how many christian emissaries planted by USA in India to convert after 1991 as according to they are building Indian economy and how many NGO funded by them to prevent our growth and development.

And when USSR collapsed our economy also collapsed if USSR was still here then no one knows what could and should have happen but Pakistan won't be around here that i can assume of.
 

Mad Indian

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F35 is not strategic program like pak fa ? Do explain more o_O
Will USA sell its F22 to anyone in the world, for any price? Will US allow anyone to work on their 6th gen projects ? They are the black projects/strategic projects which is too important to give up for monetary gains. But F35 is not such project. It is a fighter mainly built as a workhorse and is oriented for export. it is not a strategic project in the US eyes.

If you want to take Indian example, India will happily sell Tejas to Bangladesh. It will also happily sell some outdated ships and corvetes. But will India sell FGFA to Bangladesh, atleast before they get a better version for themselves? Or will they lease/sell nuclear subs to Bangladesh navy? They wont, because it is a strategic project for us. Most of the information regarding them will be classified.

F35 programme is done with partnership of every tom dick and harry in the US camp. It cant be compared to a strategic project like PakFa or FGFA. If

Russophiles ? :D
I thought it was self explanatory - the ones who are saying that India owes some help to Russia due to some convoluted sense of indebtment to them

Wow so how many of our nuclear scientist killed by CIA (can you count ? )
this is just you diverting the issue. This is called Strawman tactic so often used by leftists. The point of contention was not about was US benefecial to India in 1947-1991, but whether USSR was completely altruistic to us as many of you claim :rolleyes: . Proving CIA was conducting covert ops against India does not change the fact that USSR actively involved in espionage in India to spread its influence and spread socialism in the psyche of Indians - which by itself proves that USSR was not altruistic in its relation with India.

And seriously , get over this cold was BS. Cold war is over and we are equally to blame for not being good in our diplomacy with the USA. As I said, you all should stop living with Coldwar hangover.

Pakistan economy got hit in 1971 as their Human resources got halves and they were pretty much using Bangladeshis as Britain were using India pre 1947 and their so called friend USA didn't save them but only saved west pakistan which was crucial to fight USSR so pakistan used USA or USA used pakistan ?

What are you talking, even in 1991, Paki Per capita income was about 50% higher than that of Indians and even now their poverty figures are lower than Indian ones

Now tell me how many christian emissaries planted by USA in India to convert after 1991 as according to they are building Indian economy and how many NGO funded by them to prevent our growth and development.
I would have called this intellectual dishonesty for bringing up two completely unrelated issues but I will give it the benefit of the doubt this time .Reason being, most of the NGOs you are talking about existed even before India opened its market. If anything, without the market economy, India would have crumbled under its own weight of poverty and unemployment. And what do you think is the biggest defence against these NGOs and evangelicals? Economic growth. FFS, without the market reforms in 1990s, I highly doubt many of the champagne socialists here would have even had the access to internet and other IT stuff which they are happily using for bashing market reforms

Also, poverty is way worse than evangelisation. And not all evangelisation is funded by the US citizens and I highly doubt US "govt" has any official evangelical funding programs. Trying to bring in evangelicals here is just intellectual dishonesty.

And when USSR collapsed our economy also collapsed if USSR was still here then no one knows what could and should have happen but Pakistan won't be around here that i can assume of.
You dint answer my question. How about I make it easier with two questions?

1. Would India still opened its market if USSR was around

2. Would India with socialist system of economic policy still grown at 8% p.a like it is growing now, if India had not opened its market. Lets see how much intellectual honesty you guys have
 
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Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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Will USA sell its F22 to anyone in the world, for any price? Will US allow anyone to work on their 6th gen projects ? They are the black projects/strategic projects which is too important to give up for monetary gains. But F35 is not such project. It is a fighter mainly built as a workhorse and is oriented for export. it is not a strategic project in the US eyes.

If you want to take Indian example, India will happily sell Tejas to Bangladesh. It will also happily sell some outdated ships and corvetes. But will India sell FGFA to Bangladesh, atleast before they get a better version for themselves? Or will they lease/sell nuclear subs to Bangladesh navy? They wont, because it is a strategic project for us. Most of the information regarding them will be classified.

F35 programme is done with partnership of every tom dick and harry in the US camp. It cant be compared to a strategic project like PakFa or FGFA. If



I thought it was self explanatory - the ones who are saying that India owes some help to Russia due to some convoluted sense of indebtment to them



this is just you diverting the issue. This is called Strawman tactic so often used by leftists. The point of contention was not about was US benefecial to India in 1947-1991, but whether USSR was completely altruistic to us as many of you claim :rolleyes: . Proving CIA was conducting covert ops against India does not change the fact that USSR actively involved in espionage in India to spread its influence and spread socialism in the psyche of Indians - which by itself proves that USSR was not altruistic in its relation with India.

And seriously , get over this cold was BS. Cold war is over and we are equally to blame for not being good in our diplomacy with the USA. As I said, you all should stop living with Coldwar hangover.



What are you talking, even in 1991, Paki Per capita income was about 50% higher than that of Indians and even now their poverty figures are lower than Indian ones



I would have called this intellectual dishonesty for bringing up two completely unrelated issues but I will give it the benefit of the doubt this time .Reason being, most of the NGOs you are talking about existed even before India opened its market. If anything, without the market economy, India would have crumbled under its own weight of poverty and unemployment. And what do you think is the biggest defence against these NGOs and evangelicals? Economic growth. FFS, without the market reforms in 1990s, I highly doubt many of the champagne socialists here would have even had the access to internet and other IT stuff which they are happily using for bashing market reforms

Also, poverty is way worse than evangelisation. And not all evangelisation is funded by the US citizens and I highly doubt US "govt" has any official evangelical funding programs. Trying to bring in evangelicals here is just intellectual dishonesty.



You dint answer my question. How about I make it easier with two questions?

1. Would India still opened its market if USSR was around

2. Would India with socialist system of economic policy still grown at 8% p.a like it is growing now, if India had not opened its market. Lets see how much intellectual honesty you guys have
1) I am not sure. USSR was not a big player in IMF and could not have helped India with default. So USSR or not USSR, India would have opened up or gone to eating grass like NK.
 

Mad Indian

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1) I am not sure. USSR was not a big player in IMF and could not have helped India with default. So USSR or not USSR, India would have opened up or gone to eating grass like NK.
What would have happened is USSR would have bailed us out rather than let us reform our economy. So we would not have gone bankrupt, but would have continued with our poverty hugging for a few more years. Do you disagree?
 
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Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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What would have happened is USSR would have bailed us out rather than let us reform our economy. So we would not have gone bankrupt, but would have continued with our poverty hugging for a few more years. Do you disagree?
We needed an external kick else there was small chance of change.

Although there were some reforms at the beginning of 80s by Rajiv Gandhi govt.
 

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