IDN TAKE: Why India Should Buy the F-35 Lightning II

[Scarface]

Please read the thread.
___________________________________

I fail to see anything in this thread which credibly disputes the F-35s ability to carry out all roles necessary to classify it as a multirole.

 

[pmaitra]

I fail to see anything in this thread which credibly disputes the F-35s ability to carry out all roles necessary to classify it as a multirole.

You won't see it if you do not read the thread.

 

[Scarface]

You won't see it if you do not read the thread.

I made that post after reading the thread

 

[pmaitra]

I made that post after reading the thread

If you have read the thread, as you claim, then you know why F-35 is not a multi-role aircraft.

 

[Scarface]

If you have read the thread, as you claim, then you know why F-35 is not a multi-role aircraft.

No I don't and please refrain from dictating what I know and what I don't know.

Feel free to enlighten me though.

 

[pmaitra]

No I don't and please refrain from dictating what I know and what I don't know.

Feel free to enlighten me though.

That is because you have not read the thread.

I don't need you to tell me that you have read the thread. I need you to read the thread.

Don't expect the same thing to be repeated again and again. Read the thread.

 

[Scarface]

That is because you have not read the thread.

I don't need you to tell me that you have read the thread. I need you to read the thread.

Don't expect the same thing to be repeated again and again. Read the thread.

Except I did read the thread and found nothing of any credibility disputing F-35s capabilities in any specific role.

If there's nothing more to add except what has already been said and done in the thread then I find no reason to entertain your claim that the F-35 isn't a multirole fighter.

 

[pmaitra]

Except I did read the thread and found nothing of any credibility disputing F-35s capabilities in any specific role.

If there's nothing more to add except what has already been said and done in the thread then I find no reason to entertain your claim that the F-35 isn't a multirole fighter.

If you have read the thread, which I don't believe whatsoever, then counter the points that explain why F-35 is not a multi-role aircraft.

 

[Scarface]

If you have read the thread, which I don't believe whatsoever, then counter the points that explain why F-35 is not a multi-role aircraft.

There are no such points to counter,nothing in this thread has proven the F-35 incapable of performing any role expected of multi-role fighters

And besides it's not even a matter of great technicality.even a simple loom at Lockmart page will be enough to show F-35 and the many roles it can carry out

"
Electronic Attack
Advanced electronic warfare (EW) capabilities enable F-35 pilots to locate and track enemy forces, jam radars and disrupt attacks with unparalleled effectiveness. Advanced avionics give the pilot real-time access to battle space information with 360-degree coverage and an unparalleled ability to dominate the tactical environment. Data collected by sensors on the F-35 will immediately be shared with commanders at sea, in the air or on the ground, providing an instantaneous, high-fidelity view of ongoing operations – making the F-35 a formidable force multiplier while enhancing coalition operations. This system allows F-35 pilots to reach well-defended targets and suppress enemy radars.

Air-to-surface



The F-35's very low-observable (VLO) stealth allows it to safely enter defended airspace areas without being seen by radars that 4th Generation and earlier legacy fighters cannot evade. The combination of the stealth features, active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar technology, and the aircraft’s ability to carry its full component of weapons stores and fuel internally allows F-35 pilots to engage ground targets at longer ranges without being detected and tracked, using precision-guided munitions and air-to-air radar-guided missiles to successfully complete air-to-ground missions. In this “clean” configuration, the F-35 will enter the air battlespace first, clearing the way with air dominance for follow-on legacy coalition forces to operate with relative impunity.



Air-to-air




The F-35’s integrated sensors, information and weapons systems give pilots an advantage over potential threat front-line fighter aircraft. Compared to 5th Generation fighters like the F-35 and F-22, legacy aircraft have a larger radar cross-section (RCS), which means they can be more easily detected by enemy radar. In aerial combat, legacy aircraft have relatively equal opportunities to detect and engage one another, while a 5th Generation fighter pilot can see enemy aircraft first and take decisive, lethal action from a stand-off distance. The ability to see and not be seen is redefining previous generation air-to-air tactics.



Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR)




Drawing on the advantage of stealth, advanced sensors, and data fusion providing enhanced pilot situational awareness, F-35 pilots can fly critical ISR missions with more sophisticated data capture than any previous fighter aircraft. The F-35 has the most powerful and comprehensive integrated sensor package of any fighter aircraft in history, giving pilots 360-degree access to “real-time” battlefield information. The information gathered by F-35 sensors can be securely shared with commanders at sea, in the air or on the ground, providing a comprehensive view of ongoing operations.

Much of the F-35’s electronic warfare and ISR capabilities are made possible by a core processor that can perform more than 400 billion operations per second. This core processor collects data from the classified electronic warfare suite, developed by BAE Systems, to identify enemy radar and electronic warfare emissions and, as happens with the eight sensor Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) providing the pilot 360-degree coverage, recommending which them, to attack and whether he or she should use either kinetic or electronic means to counter or negate the threat."


https://www.f35.com/about/capabilities


Here,explanation of the F-35 and the 4 roles it can assume and how it can assume them.it is safe to call it a multirole and it fits the definition.

Nothing more is needed

 

[pmaitra]

There are no such points to counter,nothing in this thread has proven the F-35 incapable of performing any role expected of multi-role fighters

There are plenty of posts by several posters in this thread that explain why F-35 is not a multi-role aircraft. You are not able to counter those points because you have not read the thread.

Bottom line is, F-35 is not a multi-role aircraft. Don't ask me why, because I won't be able to repeat the contents of several posts in this thread again.

 

[Scarface]

There are plenty of posts by several posters in this thread that explain why F-35 is not a multi-role aircraft. You are not able to counter those points because you have not read the thread.

Bottom line is, F-35 is not a multi-role aircraft. Don't ask me why, because I won't be able to repeat the contents of several posts in this thread again.

As I said,I don't see anything of the sort.

I Listed the capabilities of the F-35 In the previous post,how it can carry out 4 roles although to be classified as a multirole you need to do only two ,those to being A2A and A2G

Your refusal to "repeat" or redirect me to posts which can dispute F-35s ability to carry out any of the 4 roles mentioned or 2 roles which are essential with credible evidence is reasonable,because it would be too much digging around the thread.

But essentially the argument boils down to the pettiness of you not believing that I've read the thread and me insisting that I have to no avail.

So I have to once again ignore your claims and the bottom line you've drawn and stand by my statement.

You can believe me when I say I read the thread and I find no post convincing me that the F-35 is not a multirole with evidence

Or not but that's what we seem to be discussing instead of the F-35 itself and I have no intention of doing that.

 

[pmaitra]

As I said,I don't see anything of the sort.

I Listed the capabilities of the F-35 In the previous post,how it can carry out 4 roles although to be classified as a multirole you need to do only two ,those to being A2A and A2G

Your refusal to "repeat" or redirect me to posts which can dispute F-35s ability to carry out any of the 4 roles mentioned or 2 roles which are essential with credible evidence is reasonable,because it would be too much digging around the thread.

But essentially the argument boils down to the pettiness of you not believing that I've read the thread and me insisting that I have to no avail.

So I have to once again ignore your claims and the bottom line you've drawn and stand by my statement.

You can believe me when I say I read the thread and I find no post convincing me that the F-35 is not a multirole with evidence

Or not but that's what we seem to be discussing instead of the F-35 itself and I have no intention of doing that.

Of course you don't see anything because you haven't read the thread.

Yes, I refuse to spoonfeed you. I won't entertain spurious demands to repeat what all have been explained thoroughly (why F-35 is not multi-role).

I asked you to read the thread and counter the points. You failed to do so.

You are free to believe what you want.

 

[Scarface]

Of course you don't see anything because you haven't read the thread.

Yes, I refuse to spoonfeed you. I won't entertain spurious demands to repeat what all have been explained thoroughly (why F-35 is not multi-role).

I asked you to read the thread and counter the points. You failed to do so.

You are free to believe what you want.

There you go again.
I made it clear I read the thread.
I found nothing corroborating your claim or others' that the F-35 isn't a multirole.

You chose not to believe me and that's where it should have ended.


Yet you insist on continuing a petty discourse of this level which I made it clear in my previous post that I don't have an intention of participating in,now I'm wondering whether you bothered to even read my post

Or maybe having the last word is something of great importance to you,if that's the case then so be it, but I refuse to accept your claim or the bottom line you've drawn and it will remain that way until I see some evidence supporting it.

That's the last of me if you want to continue the discussion under the pretext that I haven't read the thread ( despite having done so)

 

[Dark Sorrow]

There you go again.
I made it clear I read the thread.
I found nothing corroborating your claim or others' that the F-35 isn't a multirole.

You chose not to believe me and that's where it should have ended.


Yet you insist on continuing a petty discourse of this level which I made it clear in my previous post that I don't have an intention of participating in,now I'm wondering whether you bothered to even read my post

Or maybe having the last word is something of great importance to you,if that's the case then so be it, but I refuse to accept your claim or the bottom line you've drawn and it will remain that way until I see some evidence supporting it.

That's the last of me if you want to continue the discussion under the pretext that I haven't read the thread ( despite having done so)

Dude, just ignore him.
Some people can't digest the fact that better air-craft than PAK-FA have been built or in short any thing better than what Russians do can is possible.

 

[Immanuel]

F-35 is a jack of all trades, multi role fighter. It will specialize in nothing while being pretty good at everything much like the Super Hornet. It's true prowess will be in its use of cutting avionics, best in class 360 degree situational awareness & VLO properties.

 

[Scarface]

Dude, just ignore him.
Some people can't digest the fact that better air-craft than PAK-FA have been built or in short any thing better than what Russians do can is possible.

Indeed, as far as Stealth is concerned which is probably the defining characteristic of a 5th Gen aircraft the Americans seem to have Russians beat or maybe the Russians aren't trying for Stealth as much as Maneuverability, either way it doesn't matter

 

[Chinmoy]

Indeed, as far as Stealth is concerned which is probably the defining characteristic of a 5th Gen aircraft the Americans seem to have Russians beat or maybe the Russians aren't trying for Stealth as much as Maneuverability, either way it doesn't matter

I would agree with @Immanuel here where he mentioned that "

F-35 is a jack of all trades, multi role fighter. It will specialize in nothing while being pretty good at everything much like the Super Hornet.

"
The onus of F-35 lies in its electronic warfare capability and situational awareness. But you cant keep it in the same role as Rafale when it comes to Multiple combat role. Now when you talk about Multiple combat role aircraft, you are talking about a modular aircraft. An aircraft which could be changed to adept in carrying out one role or another. Now one could use Rafale in an Air to Air combat role or Air to Ground role with a simple change in its module. But you cant change an F-35 into Air to Air combat role as simply as Rafale. In fact F-35 is not designed to carry out Air to Air combat role at all although it could carry some AAM. But its main purpose is of Air to Ground attack. Let me explain how. Lets take two of the contemporary fighters, F-22 and F-35 for this. Both this fighters does have near about same structural design and as far as stealth is concerned, both does carry the same components and design. But when it comes to weapon carrying capability, they have a huge difference.

Here's the F-22 Raptor:

And here's the F-35 Lightning:

Whereas the F-22 is designed for air to air combat, the F-35 is designed to be more adept at air to ground combat. Because the F-22 is optimized for carrying air-to-air missiles, its weapons bay is more shallow and wider, whereas the F-35's weapons bay is deeper and narrower. The F-22 can carry bombs in its weapons bay (like 1,000 LBS JDAMs), just not ones as powerful as what the F-35 can carry (like 2,000 LBS JDAMs).

Also, the F-35 cannot fill the role of the the F-22 for the same reason. The F-35's bomb bay is not optimized for carrying air to air weaponry like the F-22's is. So the simple fact of the matter is that you can't build a stealth fighter with a bomb bay that can do everything. Does F-35 is more of a high-tech Air to ground role fighter and is not in the same league with that of Rafale, which is more adept in Multirole combat. Moreover its single engine design does limit its range and does you cant take the fight to your enemy in it unlike Rafale.

Now there is no doubt that its a trump card when you talk about electronic warfare capability or situational awareness. But the catch is, the export variant of it is trimmed down and you are not going to get what you are hearing or seeing. Moreover when you talk about stealth, there is nothing like an invisible fighter, its more like a low radar visibility fighter. But this low radar visibility does work fine with X band radar pulses. When it comes to L band, you are still very much visible whether its F-22 or F-35 or PAK FA or J20.

 

[Immanuel]

The F-35 will deploy upto 6 A2A (4 Aim-120s & 2 Aim-9X) + 2*2000 bs or 4*500 lbs PGMs or 8*SDB1/2 Internally. EU versions will also have Spear, Meteor, JSM Missiles. Israelis will also integrate I-Derby-ER, Python-5+ and other weapons on them. CUDA is under development and being a smaller missile, it should be possible to carry more internally. Even with external stores and weapons, the F-35 still has a lower RCS than any other 4.5 gen aircraft and hence its on any day a better investment than Rafale in this day and age for a decent MRCA.

With roughly 120 LCA mk1+ being ordered for delivery by 2022, more MKI in the pipeline, IAF shouldn't really feel hard pushed and hence should invest its money on the F-35. Fly it now, bring it for trials in India and see for ourselves if this bird makes any sense. IF the bird is promising, order around 2018, FOC versions based on the Israeli mods, order 120 for IAF, 40 F-35B for IN's LPD & 40 F-35C for INS Vishal class carriers with orders being delivered in the same sequence. With 200 aircraft, we can easily have local assembly and become a hub for F-35 supply chain across Asia, Middle East. There are about to be plenty of F-35 users in the area and we can benefit from this. Rafale though a good aircraft is so yesterday. Honestly even the F-35 now is being considered so yesterday and hence they are busy upgrading its engines, radar and other avionics to take it further. FOC versions will have improved radar, up-rated engines, better reliability. Also, I don't know of any other aircraft that is being tested quite as rigorously or extensively as this the F-35. It had already flown over 5000 hrs in test flights by 2012. It would be great if the F-35 team with help of IAF can bring this bird to India and fly it in Jamnagar, Leh, Bangalore, Goa and other tough conditions. If it can perform in India, it can perform anywhere.

 

[pmaitra]

. . . until I see some evidence supporting it.

Read the thread.

Dude, just ignore him.
Some people can't digest the fact that better air-craft than PAK-FA have been built or in short any thing better than what Russians do can is possible.

Are you able to digest the fact that F-35 is a very expensive embarrassment? Anything that comes out of the US is heavenly manna for you. You would have said just the opposite if F-35 were a Russian product.

I'd take PAK-FA prototype over F-35 production version any day.

Indeed, as far as Stealth is concerned which is probably the defining characteristic of a 5th Gen aircraft the Americans seem to have Russians beat or maybe the Russians aren't trying for Stealth as much as Maneuverability, either way it doesn't matter

And stealth won't work. Stealth doesn't work as claimed, and certainly not while engaging enemy.

 

[Scarface]

The F-35 will deploy upto 6 A2A (4 Aim-120s & 2 Aim-9X) + 2*2000 bs or 4*500 lbs PGMs or 8*SDB1/2 Internally. EU versions will also have Spear, Meteor, JSM Missiles. Israelis will also integrate I-Derby-ER, Python-5+ and other weapons on them. CUDA is under development and being a smaller missile, it should be possible to carry more internally. Even with external stores and weapons, the F-35 still has a lower RCS than any other 4.5 gen aircraft and hence its on any day a better investment than Rafale in this day and age for a decent MRCA.

With roughly 120 LCA mk1+ being ordered for delivery by 2022, more MKI in the pipeline, IAF shouldn't really feel hard pushed and hence should invest its money on the F-35. Fly it now, bring it for trials in India and see for ourselves if this bird makes any sense. IF the bird is promising, order around 2018, FOC versions based on the Israeli mods, order 120 for IAF, 40 F-35B for IN's LPD & 40 F-35C for INS Vishal class carriers with orders being delivered in the same sequence. With 200 aircraft, we can easily have local assembly and become a hub for F-35 supply chain across Asia, Middle East. There are about to be plenty of F-35 users in the area and we can benefit from this. Rafale though a good aircraft is so yesterday. Honestly even the F-35 now is being considered so yesterday and hence they are busy upgrading its engines, radar and other avionics to take it further. FOC versions will have improved radar, up-rated engines, better reliability. Also, I don't know of any other aircraft that is being tested quite as rigorously or extensively as this the F-35. It had already flown over 5000 hrs in test flights by 2012. It would be great if the F-35 team with help of IAF can bring this bird to India and fly it in Jamnagar, Leh, Bangalore, Goa and other tough conditions. If it can perform in India, it can perform anywhere.

Exactly I don't see any point in buying the Rafale.If anything Rafale is being oversold by Dassault as an omnirole which lacks a reliable BVR platform and it isn't even compatible with other NATO BVR munitions like the AIM-120C/D

Meanwhile you can get a 5th Gen multirole for 3/4th the price of Rafale,and IAF needs a 5th Gen,so why not.Not to mention reverse engineering/studying an F-35 can help us take massive strides in our 5th Gen AMCA project.

Although 200 F35s looks to be completely out of budget we should at least try to fill the void of 90 aircraft left by the downsized MRCA tender and I see no better candidate than the F-35.