Finland - Society and Economy

[pmaitra]

So Finland has lower GDP debt ratio than India. 59 vs 67

You don't understand the difference between percentage and absolute value.
You don't understand the difference between paper currency and hard assets.

I am interested to know whether your pension fund minus your debt will result in a negative value. Higher than India and Russia? Well, we'll have to see the numbers first.

 

[pmaitra]

Despite our defense prepareness, we have also good relations with Russia. That speaks a lot for our policy. Si vic pacem para bellum.

Everybody wins: we do not threat Russia and Russia knows that it is no use threatening us. The cost would be too high compared to the gain. Also whole Scandinavia remains peaceful that way.

Yes, in another conflict, you would probably lose even more territory, like last time. The Russian projectiles along a parabolic path, aka the Russian artillery, is something I'd be very scared of, if I were you.

 

[pmaitra]

If you see all Finland has done is take a lot of loan at an increasing rate. That too through a highly ham handed organ, completely indiscriminate in its capability to deploy, called the Government. Even while their own people are in no mood to pay that debt back - see their savings rates.

And after taking this crazy loan they have put the money in there pocket and now feel happy about it.

We in India call it 'Karza le ke darza badhana'.

Here are the number that anybody can understand.

Gross savings (% of GDP) | Data | Table

Gross savings (% of GDP)----2010/2011/2012/2013
For Finland (in %)--------------23/22/21/20
For India (in %)-----------------34/35/32/32

Just stay cool they are digging a ditch for themselves.

Last time I checked, India's DEBT to GDP ratio was less than Finland's. Don't restrict yourself to the government debt. Include private debts too.

 

[salute]

I give you free advice: your nukes are worth zero. When both sides got them, they mean nothing. Except money pit. How many billion a year it costs to Russia to maintain their huge aging arsenal.

i was talking about finland against russia.

 

[Kshatriya87]

In Finland we have a saying " it is not the large income that matters, but the frugal spending". Without having any natural resources and only 5.5 million people, we have managed to accumulate more wealth for our peoples wellbeing than 1.4 Bn people Russia and India. I strongly suggest that you stop the overspending and start to think about the future of your people. Both of you. Whats the point of having nukes and aircraft carriers if people live in poverty? Mrd=Bn

The world's 300 largest pension funds – year end 2013 - Towers Watson

@sgarg

The point of having nukes and aircraft carriers is too keep those poor people alive. As many of us have explained before, the situation with neighbors in the Indian subcontinent and in Europe is completely different. India as a country will not survive with "frugal spending". When your country is surrounded by 2 other countries who want to destroy you and 1 other country who keeps infltrating, you need to invest in a lot of defense programs.

 

[Rashna]

That being the case why did i see beggars sitting outside Kamppi station in sub zero temperatures? Why are you exploiting labor from estonia ?
The difference between India and Finland is as stark as your winter and our gorgeous sunshine all around the year. We have natural resources, abundant sunshine and our land supports large population because it is fertile and viable. Finland is paying its people to reproduce so the population doesn't go down further.

Human resource is the greatest resource of all and like everything else in India that is in plenty. Its because India is so potentially rich that we need to guard ourselves from people. Our history is filled with pages of looters and invaders who came for the wealth. Given our past it would be foolish of us to let history repeat itself. Finland is a nice little place for you however India is a juggernaut. You can't imagine the produce we get here in India. I used to go to the indian store at hakaniemi because i used to be so put off by the variety of vegetables on offer in K mart and Liddl. Sure you can be frugal in your spending because u hardly get anything there which requires splurging. And the way u guys are being ripped off by the EU which sells everything at high rates i find it difficult to believe this frugal spending comment of yours.

Your low population is good so far as the transport system goes but the younger generation there is heavily in to drinking. They also beg for cigarettes at tram stops. The weather is specially worse for the elderly and i have seen old people who have slipped on ice and just sitting there dazed. Nobody bothers to even help them up. Its good for a while but can get very depressing for someone from India who is used to the Sun and a predictable climate.

In short please pick someone your size, maybe sweden. That would make sense!

In Finland we have a saying " it is not the large income that matters, but the frugal spending". Without having any natural resources and only 5.5 million people, we have managed to accumulate more wealth for our peoples wellbeing than 1.4 Bn people Russia and India. I strongly suggest that you stop the overspending and start to think about the future of your people. Both of you. Whats the point of having nukes and aircraft carriers if people live in poverty? Mrd=Bn

The world's 300 largest pension funds – year end 2013 - Towers Watson

@sgarg

 

[jouni]

That being the case why did i see beggars sitting outside Kamppi station in sub zero temperatures? Why are you exploiting labor from estonia ?
The difference between India and Finland is as stark as your winter and our gorgeous sunshine all around the year. We have natural resources, abundant sunshine and our land supports large population because it is fertile and viable. Finland is paying its people to reproduce so the population doesn't go down further.

Human resource is the greatest resource of all and like everything else in India that is in plenty. Its because India is so potentially rich that we need to guard ourselves from people. Our history is filled with pages of looters and invaders who came for the wealth. Given our past it would be foolish of us to let history repeat itself. Finland is a nice little place for you however India is a juggernaut. You can't imagine the produce we get here in India. I used to go to the indian store at hakaniemi because i used to be so put off by the variety of vegetables on offer in K mart and Liddl. Sure you can be frugal in your spending because u hardly get anything there which requires splurging. And the way u guys are being ripped off by the EU which sells everything at high rates i find it difficult to believe this frugal spending comment of yours.

Your low population is good so far as the transport system goes but the younger generation there is heavily in to drinking. They also beg for cigarettes at tram stops. The weather is specially worse for the elderly and i have seen old people who have slipped on ice and just sitting there dazed. Nobody bothers to even help them up. Its good for a while but can get very depressing for someone from India who is used to the Sun and a predictable climate.

In short please pick someone your size, maybe sweden. That would make sense!

I hope you had Finnish friends during your stay and was invited to our homes. Otherwise your observation is correct on a superficial way. I can understand you missing indian veggies, food and sunshine. When I was in Singapore I missed our four seasons. Are you still in Finland?

 

[jouni]

You don't understand the difference between percentage and absolute value.
You don't understand the difference between paper currency and hard assets.

I am interested to know whether your pension fund minus your debt will result in a negative value. Higher than India and Russia? Well, we'll have to see the numbers first.

On top of 170Bn pension fund we have 80Bn government assets. Total assets 250Bn, gov debt ~100 Bn
HS selvitti: Näin Suomen valtion yli 80 miljardin varallisuus jakautuu - Talous - Helsingin Sanomat

 

[jouni]

Yes, in another conflict, you would probably lose even more territory, like last time. The Russian projectiles along a parabolic path, aka the Russian artillery, is something I'd be very scared of, if I were you.

Of course Russia has good Army, but we are not worried. Barking dog do not bite.

 

[pmaitra]

That being the case why did i see beggars sitting outside Kamppi station in sub zero temperatures? Why are you exploiting labor from estonia ?
The difference between India and Finland is as stark as your winter and our gorgeous sunshine all around the year. We have natural resources, abundant sunshine and our land supports large population because it is fertile and viable. Finland is paying its people to reproduce so the population doesn't go down further.

Human resource is the greatest resource of all and like everything else in India that is in plenty. Its because India is so potentially rich that we need to guard ourselves from people. Our history is filled with pages of looters and invaders who came for the wealth. Given our past it would be foolish of us to let history repeat itself. Finland is a nice little place for you however India is a juggernaut. You can't imagine the produce we get here in India. I used to go to the indian store at hakaniemi because i used to be so put off by the variety of vegetables on offer in K mart and Liddl. Sure you can be frugal in your spending because u hardly get anything there which requires splurging. And the way u guys are being ripped off by the EU which sells everything at high rates i find it difficult to believe this frugal spending comment of yours.

Your low population is good so far as the transport system goes but the younger generation there is heavily in to drinking. They also beg for cigarettes at tram stops. The weather is specially worse for the elderly and i have seen old people who have slipped on ice and just sitting there dazed. Nobody bothers to even help them up. Its good for a while but can get very depressing for someone from India who is used to the Sun and a predictable climate.

In short please pick someone your size, maybe sweden. That would make sense!

Ha ha, beggars in sub-zero Finland. What is that called? European values? Or is that equity over excellence?

@jouni would have us believe their government takes care of everyone.

And exploiting Estonians? That is standard practice all over the EU. Again, "European values."

Actually, it is Baltika and Polska too.

Of course Russia has good Army, but we are not worried. Barking dog do not bite.

Russia doesn't bite. Russia gifts territory away, and also takes it back, when the recipient of the gift barks more than it can bite.

 

[Ray]

@Rashna

A nation like Finland whose population is less that most of the Indian cities, have beggars?

 

[Rashna]

I did meet Indians who are settled permanently in Finland and Finns too. I was living in a 100 year old building at huvilakatu. I have fond memories of Finland but home is home, and India is too bright, colorful, and full of richness and sweetness that i found once i had seen a stark world devoid of everything. You know richness is a fake concept because even the richest countries have poor starving people. Creating a society which lives off doles is hardly a sign of being prosperous. Times change and when you can't give those doles you have created monsters who do not work and do not contribute to the economy. I have seen beggars in Finland, US, UK.....

I hope you had Finnish friends during your stay and was invited to our homes. Otherwise your observation is correct on a superficial way. I can understand you missing indian veggies, food and sunshine. When I was in Singapore I missed our four seasons. Are you still in Finland?

 

[Rashna]

Yes. The most heartrending sight is that they beg when the temp is -16c.

@Rashna

A nation like Finland whose population is less that most of the Indian cities, have beggars?

 

[Rashna]

I would also like to add that helsinki was built by the Russians

Ha ha, beggars in sub-zero Finland. What is that called? European values? Or is that equity over excellence?

@jouni would have us believe their government takes care of everyone.

And exploiting Estonians? That is standard practice all over the EU. Again, "European values."

Actually, it is Baltika and Polska too.



Russia doesn't bite. Russia gifts territory away, and also takes it back, when the recipient of the gift barks more than it can bite.

 

[jouni]

Ha ha, beggars in sub-zero Finland. What is that called? European values? Or is that equity over excellence?

@jouni would have us believe their government takes care of everyone.

And exploiting Estonians? That is standard practice all over the EU. Again, "European values."

Actually, it is Baltika and Polska too.



Russia doesn't bite. Russia gifts territory away, and also takes it back, when the recipient of the gift barks more than it can bite.

Nowadays Estonians work in Finland with the same rules than Finns. Same salary etc. Regarding beggars, they are mostly Romanian Roma people who migrate to Finland. That is in a way a problem, because they do not want permanent housing, they prefer their nomadic way of life. Normally, if you are unemployed you are guaranteed housing and about 700 Euros a month to survive. Another group are alcoholics, they also beg sometimes, because allowance is not enough for booze.

The Ukrainian Week

One Reason for Estonia's Success Lies Across the Gulf
Since the fall of the Soviet Union, Estonia has fared much better than other former Soviet republics. The Estonian economy has developed rapidly, and society as a whole is very free and democratic. The reason? Not only timely and judicious political decisions, but also the strong influence of Estonia's northern neighbour Finland.

 

[Ray]

Nowadays Estonians work in Finland with the same rules than Finns. Same salary etc. Regarding beggars, they are mostly Romanian Roma people who migrate to Finland. That is in a way a problem, because they do not want permanent housing, they prefer their nomadic way of life. Normally, if you are unemployed you are guaranteed housing and about 700 Euros a month to survive. Another group are alcoholics, they also beg sometimes, because allowance is not enough for booze.

The Sami people of northern Finland are also nomads or semi nomads.

There traditional summer and winter pastures lie across border. In addition to that, there is a border drawn for modern-day Sápmi.

*********************

Here is how the Finns treat the Roma people.

The experiences of Roma beggars in Finland are harsh.

Roma beggars come to Finland in hopes of better pickings, even though many think that Finns have no pity.

Many recall how it was better before.

A Roma woman begs on a street in the center Helsinki. A young Finnish girl pulls down her jeans and squats down beside the woman to pee. The Roma woman withdraws to one side away from the puddle and says "Oh, my poor child, your life is indeed ruined."........


In Finland, the Roma beg on the streets 8-9 hours a day regardless of the weather. The muscles become sore in fossilized positions; people shout and some even kick. One young man tells of an older Finnish woman who offered him a massage parlor and showed her genitalia.

"What a shame," he thought.

"We sit here in the streets, like stray dogs, and spend our nights in tents in the forests. We are at risk," says a middle-aged Roma woman.

http://whatsupfinland.org/english/roma-beggars-about-finland-bad-food-and-hardhearted-people/

*******************************

On Finland exploiting Estonians, here is a PDF file one can go through

Exploitation of migrant workers in Finland, Sweden, Estonia and Lithuania: Uncovering the links between recruitment, irregular employment practices and labour trafficking

https://ec.europa.eu/anti-trafficking/sites/antitrafficking/files/heuni-report-75-15102013_1.pdf

Excerpt

The Estonian research found that migrant workers who had encountered labour exploitation often lacked knowledge about their labour rights and about the assistance options available to them. The identified countries of destination were Finland, as well as Norway, Sweden, Germany, the UK and the Russian Federation.

Construction, cleaning and agricultural jobs were particularly common among the sectors in which Estonians have encountered exploitation. The research noted that agencies and employers may take advantage of the vulnerable situation of job seekers and workers due to their poor socialeconomic conditions, lack of (local) language skills and lack of awareness.


Similar findings were made in the Lithuanian report. Most of the victims of exploitation uncovered in the research were men, both young and older men, and those who are socially vulnerable. Countries where exploitation had taken
place include EU Member States, such as Ireland, the UK, Spain, the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, and the Czech Republic, as well as Norway.

The Lithuanian research found that the majority of identified victims worked in agriculture, construction and factories.

 

[jouni]

The Sami people of northern Finland are also nomads or semi nomads.

There traditional summer and winter pastures lie across border. In addition to that, there is a border drawn for modern-day Sápmi.

*********************

Here is how the Finns treat the Roma people.



*******************************

On Finland exploiting Estonians, here is a PDF file one can go through



https://ec.europa.eu/anti-trafficking/sites/antitrafficking/files/heuni-report-75-15102013_1.pdf

Excerpt

NEWS 05 APR 12
Romania to Help Finland Deal With Roma Beggars
Bucharest is to help Finland crack down on Roma gangs that use children to beg and pick pockets in Finland.

Romania to Help Finland Deal With Roma Beggars :: Balkan Insight

http://www.migranttales.net/finnish...man-trafficking-or-linked-to-organized-crime/

 

[jouni]

I would also like to add that helsinki was built by the Russians

Yes, Helsinki was built by Russians. And they did a great job, it still is well maintained the old Engle-designed center. Carl Ludwig Engel was an German Architect hired by Czar.

 

[Ray]

NEWS 05 APR 12
Romania to Help Finland Deal With Roma Beggars
Bucharest is to help Finland crack down on Roma gangs that use children to beg and pick pockets in Finland.

Romania to Help Finland Deal With Roma Beggars :: Balkan Insight

Finnish police: Roma beggars are not victims of human trafficking or linked to organized crime / M i g r a n t T a l e s

That is alright, but it does not clear the air that Finland does not look after ALL the people, which is your refrain.

Nor does it indicate that there are no beggars in Finland. And if there are even 'foreign' beggars, the fact that they are in Finland, still indicates there are beggars and Finland does not care for them.

In so far as 'forced labour' through migrants in Finland, did you read the FDF file?

 

[jouni]

That is alright, but it does not clear the air that Finland does not look after ALL the people, which is your refrain.

Nor does it indicate that there are no beggars in Finland. And if there are even 'foreign' beggars, the fact that they are in Finland, still indicates there are beggars and Finland does not care for them.

In so far as 'forced labour' through migrants in Finland, did you read the FDF file?

I have never said that there are no beggars in Finland. We are in EU with open borders, people can just come here and start begging. I am still saying that nobody who lives here does not have to beg. Our law guarantees housing and basic needs for everybody.

This is from the pdf

The Estonian research found that migrant workers who had encountered labour
exploitation often lacked knowledge about their labour rights and about the
assistance options available to them.

This is few years old, people are acting on it. For example now all who work in construction must have their tax identification card at sight. Everybody can see from a distance that tax laws are followed. That alone has dropped problems. I would say that generally qualified Estonians earn the same as Finns.