DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Bhadra]

d

Bhadra is a devil's advocate, his presence in this forum is required. Delete anything objectionable he posts, so that he gets a lesson in interpreting news and newspaper articles with proper perspective.

I also noticed that he quotes outdated sources, insists that he is right.

A deleted post seen by other readers as deleted is a punishment enough. That is a lesson for others.

They have a point of view . Accept it or lump it. Do not muzzle that this way.

Do not bow down to profanities like devils advocate and Can read cant understand etc etc..

 

[Bhadra]

@Khagesh


It is for DRDO to provide a technology and not a doctrine which otherwise it has been doing... Perhaps that is a very serious reason for removal of Avinash Chandra who had become a Strategician and a politician rather being head of a research organisation..

Suffice for you to be told that much..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Prahaar is a tactical system than a strategic one, It is design by DRDO based on specs prepared by Army long back as 1998 ..

The requirement was simple, To hit enemy installation beyond 100kms with a flexible tactical system, The reason why BM-30 was purchased on first place ..

 

[LurkerBaba]

The title is misleading, It should be >>

' How former Government failed India and Indians since Independence ' ..

==========

Their is nothing wrong with DRDO as an organization working with low manpower and low budget with product no less than 1 world country and delivering it ..

I would agree if you were describing ISRO. DRDO has absolutely horrible work-culture.

 

[Bhadra]

Prahaar is a tactical system than a strategic one, It is design by DRDO based on specs prepared by Army long back as 1998 ..

The requirement was simple, To hit enemy installation beyond 100kms with a flexible tactical system, The reason why BM-30 was purchased on first place ..

It appears that the concept of "management of Nuclear Escalation" is beyond you as it was beyond Chandra who made irresponsible statements.

 

[pmaitra]

It appears that the concept of "management of Nuclear Escalation" is beyond you as it was beyond Chandra who made irresponsible statements.

The concept of "Management of Nuclear Escalation" is also beyond me.

Please explain what this concept is all about.

 

[Bhadra]

The concept of "Management of Nuclear Escalation" is also beyond me.

Please explain what this concept is all about.

In nutshell, two nuclear powers develop their nuclear arsenals in terms of warheads by yield and delivery systems. Both indicate to the adversaries the doctrine and methodology of the use of their weapons. For example Pakistan by demonstrating and declaring that Nasar could be nuclear capable have indicated that they may use their nuclear weapons at 40 Km range and thereby manifested that they could resort to first use. India on the other hand is firm on use as retaliation and therefore there trajectories have ranges more than 1000. These are management and signalling about use of nuclear weapons. Pakistan has escalated it to 40 km. By testing Prahar and making a statement that the missile is capable of carrying nuclear weapons means India can use nuclear weapons at 150 km range !! ( Kunal may call it tactical but it is not so). DRDO have intruded into a sphere which does not belong to them but to NSA, PMO and SFC. They inadvertently have climbed the escalation ladder which is not their business. That is why SFC stoutly refuses to induct this missile which will necessitate change in the doctrine. That would Alarm and alert the world, make Pakistan more insecure and more prone to panic and push the button too early.

Nuclear weapons are not meant to be used but to scare. That scare needs to be well conveyed and managed.

If you look at the history and achievements of DRDO for past 60 years, the projects, focus, spending and activities have been concentrated on projects which will brig them in national limelight, make them heroes, get them Padma shrees, make them presidents or members of some high placed board or committees etc. They do not pay attention to some thing mundane like rifle, pistol, fuze, casings, casting, equipment, force multiplier etc. Their focus is missile that too strategic missile and not some thing mundane like Nag, Their focus is on Tejas, Arjun, nuclear submarine at the cost of thousands of equally important projects which may not bring them glory but tremendously increase efficiency of our forces - tactical communication, cyber security, bombs, Mortars, guns, cannon - laser, nano technology, miniaturisation, materials, metallurgy, are all inconsequential for them. That would not allow the loud mouth to brag at national level and give interviews to a blogger.

They only wish to play as Scientist Generals, Strategicians, visionaries for future battlefields, do environment scan, saviour of India ( in the backdrop of weak military) - those who control nuclear assets, all those roles not assigned to them.

I hope I have conveyed the concerns of the other communities as I understand it. After all DRDO scientists are Indians so how can they remain away from Indian weaknesses.

 

[pmaitra]

@Bhadra, I like the way you have presented your argument.

Here are a few points for you to consider:

Is Prahar a tactical weapon?
The Prahar has a range of 150 km, does not obligate the army to use it only to attack targets that are close to 150 km away. So, whether it is a tactical missile also depends upon how the army choses to use it.

Let me list two tactical missiles and their ranges:
OTR-21 Tochka - Range: 70 km, 120 km, 185 km, across variants.
MGM-52 Lance - Range: 70 km, 120 km, across warhead size.

So, I do not see anything wrong in what @Kunal Biswas might have allegedly stated, as you claim.

Has DRDO intruded into a sphere that does not belong to them?
So, DRDO has presented a platform that could be used in ranges ~150 km. However, DRDO has not mandated the army to use it at that range alone. As a matter of fact, it does not harm anyone if we have the option of using it at the range of ~150 km.

So, I do not see any reason to believe that DRDO has intruded into the sphere of NSA, PMO, and/or SFC.

 

[power_monger]

The argument by bhadra is similar to 'oh please stop the development Ballistic missile defence systems.It might create panic in Pakistan and they will be resorted to put more nuclear weapons which will escalate nuclear tension.oh please stop'..

Comming to question of why DRDO developed ballistic missiles and having less attention on strategic missiles,It was never a question of attention but a question of complexities(techno).Ballistic missiles are comparatively less complex than strategic missiles due to the usage of complex seeker technologies.We as a country are seeing development in seeker technologies only recently.A couple of years more work is required from DRDO to master seeker technologies which once done will allow it overcome any roadblocks in developing strategic missiles. One can check missile development path of countries worldwide to come to any conclusion on this.

 

[Bhadra]

The argument by bhadra is similar to 'oh please stop the development Ballistic missile defence systems.It might create panic in Pakistan and they will be resorted to put more nuclear weapons which will escalate nuclear tension.oh please stop'..

Comming to question of why DRDO developed ballistic missiles and having less attention on strategic missiles,It was never a question of attention but a question of complexities(techno).Ballistic missiles are comparatively less complex than strategic missiles due to the usage of complex seeker technologies.We as a country are seeing development in seeker technologies only recently.A couple of years more work is required from DRDO to master seeker technologies which once done will allow it overcome any roadblocks in developing strategic missiles. One can check missile development path of countries worldwide to come to any conclusion on this.

Your logic is correct and so is your understanding if you think about it ..

If India develops BMD then Pakistan would require minimum ten missile for one target to achieve a possible hit. It means it would require ten times more missiles and warheads to achieve a viable deterrence. If so they need to accelerate their enrichment programme and have larger stockpile of fissile material.

Would not lead to escalation ? Is not that happening already ??

Testing one technology is different and bragging about is a different thing ! The big mouth statement have their consequences. That is why I wrote in other post that our Scientist are publicity hungry.

Nuclear weapons are possessed to avoid a nuclear war and not to conduct one. Transparency in the rival capabilities is necessary to archive deterrence and confidence building.

Be rest assured that Indian nuclear Capability is not meant to annihilate Pakistan but deter the other side to annihilate India. If it was meant to destroy Pakistan we would have done it by now.

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra, I like the way you have presented your argument.

Here are a few points for you to consider:

Is Prahar a tactical weapon?
The Prahar has a range of 150 km, does not obligate the army to use it only to attack targets that are close to 150 km away. So, whether it is a tactical missile also depends upon how the army choses to use it.

Let me list two tactical missiles and their ranges:
OTR-21 Tochka - Range: 70 km, 120 km, 185 km, across variants.
MGM-52 Lance - Range: 70 km, 120 km, across warhead size.

So, I do not see anything wrong in what @Kunal Biswas might have allegedly stated, as you claim.

Has DRDO intruded into a sphere that does not belong to them?
So, DRDO has presented a platform that could be used in ranges ~150 km. However, DRDO has not mandated the army to use it at that range alone. As a matter of fact, it does not harm anyone if we have the option of using it at the range of ~150 km.

So, I do not see any reason to believe that DRDO has intruded into the sphere of NSA, PMO, and/or SFC.

Firstly thanks.

Secondly, when the Scientist brags after the launch that Prahaar can carry 1000 kg of nuclear or conventional warhead what is so tactical about it any more?

Indian Army deploys Prahaar, so what is the guarantee that it would not be taken as a nuclear missile by the enemy.

Thirdly, is not it a ballistic missile ? In our context can a ballistic missile be used as a tactical weapon ? Any ballistic missile coming on to India will be taken as nuclear attack - for sure. I am sure our very capable scientists know about it.

That is why this Tactical weapon thing is not correct ! These are some basics which must be understood before deriding someone.

 

[pmaitra]

@Bhadra, when a scientist claims it can carry 1000 kg warhead, he means it can carry 1000 kg of warhead. He does not mean it must always carry a 1000 kg warhead. That is your interpretation.

What is the guarantee that Pakistan will not mistake a Prahaar for a nuclear missile? There is no guarantee, and there does not have to be one. A weapon being nuclear or conventional is one thing, and a weapon being tactical or strategic is another thing.

We are debating whether the Prahaar is tactical or strategic. Even a nuke can be tactical or strategic.

Coming to ballistic trajectory, there are lots of weapons that have a ballistic trajectory. There are rocket assisted artillery, where part of the propulsive force is provided by rocket. If, say, we fire a 155 mm artillery shell that is rocket assisted for the initial moments of ascension, the moment the rocket assistance is over, it automatically becomes a ballistic projectile. Does that turn that into a strategic weapon?

Here is the definition of a ballistic trajectory:

General Ballistic Trajectory

The motion of an object under the influence of gravity is determined completely by the acceleration of gravity, its launch speed, and launch angle provided air friction is negligible. The horizontal and vertical motions may be separated and described by the general motion equations for constant acceleration. The initial vector components of the velocity are used in the equations. The diagram shows trajectories with the same launch speed but different launch angles. Note that the 60 and 30 degree trajectories have the same range, as do any pair of launches at complementary angles. The launch at 45 degrees gives the maximum range.

That is why, calling the Prahaar missile "tactical" is not incorrect.

 

[Bhadra]

@pmaitra

Tactical nuclear weapons are different ball game and have different setting, geography and battle field scenarios. They were envisaged be used primarily against onslaught of rival "Force" such as massive USSR tank thrusts into Western Europe or NATO thrusts into western Russia. Those are "Counter Force" weapons. Those are based on a doctrine of first use which USA and Russia / USSR envisaged to destroy force, HQs, Command and Control and Communication.

Indian doctrine of massive retaliation is based on No First Use and retaliation to be massive means Indian nuclear weapons would be very high yield and directed at "Counter Value Target" - basically cities , industrial complexes , economic complexes, population centres etc.

Hence talking of ballistic tactical missiles in our context is not understanding things in proper perspective. More than that if we say Prahaar would be deployed that means Pakistan must take care of 150 Km periphery form the border and take measures to sanitise it. It has dangerous implications.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Your lack of understanding is not my fault, In your scene a 155mm projectile is also falls in "management of Nuclear Escalation" ..

A 300mm diameter warhead can carry 1000kg of explosive is news to me, Very amusing ..

It appears that the concept of "management of Nuclear Escalation" is beyond you as it was beyond Chandra who made irresponsible statements.

Scientist brags after the launch that Prahaar can carry 1000 kg of nuclear or conventional warhead what is so tactical about it any more?

 

[Bhadra]

Your lack of understanding is not my fault, In your scene a 155mm projectile is also falls in "management of Nuclear Escalation" ..

A 300mm diameter warhead can carry 1000kg of explosive is news to me, Very amusing ..

A 300 mm dia can carry 250 - 300 kgs all right and if nuclear warhead can be miniaturized for 155 mm 300 mm is double that... the issue is being nuclear and not weight..

When India and Pakistan reach the technical capabilities of miniaturising nuclear warhead to 155 / 152 mm it will be part of management of escalation ... you may have doubts on that.. I have none.

In order to use nuclear warhead of 155mm, one needs a doctrine for its use. Present Indian doctrines is not in favour of it.. does not visualise that unless you have your own doctrine.
So let us not talk in the air but be on the ground..

And lastly ballistic missiles can not used for tactical purposes in our Context.
Period.

 

[pmaitra]

And lastly ballistic missiles can not used for tactical purposes in our Context.
Period.

This sentence concludes that you have some hardened opinions, which even after proven wrong, you are not willing to abandon.

Any missile that that follows a ballistic trajectory is a ballistic missile.

I have already given you the definition of "ballistic trajectory." Now, I encourage you to find out the dictionary meaning of the word "missile." You might be surprised.

 

[Bhadra]

This sentence concludes that you have some hardened opinions, which even after proven wrong, you are not willing to abandon.

Any missile that that follows a ballistic trajectory is a ballistic missile.

I have already given you the definition of "ballistic trajectory." Now, I encourage you to find out the dictionary meaning of the word "missile." You might be surprised.

That is not my hardened opinion but of those who matter,...

On ballistics - do not kid me.. even a bullet has one.. and if I throw a stone even that would have one..

Prahaar goes up to the height of 35 km to reach a range of 150 km .. and you are not trying to understand.

 

[Bhadra]

Your lack of understanding is not my fault,
A 300mm diameter warhead..

Very amusing ..
Prahaar has a length of 7.3 meters and diameter of 420 mm ..... Can weig1280 kgs or more..

Is that amusing ..

 

[pmaitra]

That is not my hardened opinion but of those who matter,...

On ballistics - do not kid me.. even a bullet has one.. and if I throw a stone even that would have one..

Prahaar goes up to the height of 35 km to reach a range of 150 km .. and you are not trying to understand.

Exactly.

I was actually going to write that the bullet that comes out of a rifle is also a ballistic missile, and if you throw a piece of rock at a barking dog, that rock is also a ballistic missile.

We have covered a lot of territory, including Prahaar carrying 1000 kg nuclear or conventional warheads, to it going up to a height of 35 km. We need to now go back to the main point as to whether Prahaar is a tactical missile or not. To do that, I will refer you back to this previous post. Quite a few things we have discussed after that are deflections.

Prahaar is a tactical missile, whether it carries a nuclear or conventional warhead. Prahaar is a tactical missile, whether it is ballistic or not.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Coming down from 1000kg claim to 250kg of Prahaar, As you come to know about Warhead size ..

Admitting that even 155mm shell pose Nuclear Escalation, hence even Arty fall into nuclear escalation, according to your believes, ..

Indian Army doctrine does not permit to use Nuclear 155mm shells, Which don`t exist in Indian military but your own doctrine from your imagination land ..

Balletic Missiles in arsenal are with HE Frag warheads, Does not give you any clues that its for tactical purpose and you claim to be Military professional ..

Rightly said "let us not talk in the air but be on the ground..", You are waste of my time and others ..

A 300 mm dia can carry 250 - 300 kgs all right and if nuclear warhead can be miniaturized for 155 mm 300 mm is double that... the issue is being nuclear and not weight..

When India and Pakistan reach the technical capabilities of miniaturising nuclear warhead to 155 / 152 mm it will be part of management of escalation ... you may have doubts on that.. I have none.

In order to use nuclear warhead of 155mm, one needs a doctrine for its use. Present Indian doctrines is not in favour of it.. does not visualise that unless you have your own doctrine.So let us not talk in the air but be on the ground..

And lastly ballistic missiles can not used for tactical purposes in our Context.Period.

A 300 mm dia can carry 250 - 300 kgs all right and if nuclear warhead can be miniaturized for 155 mm 300 mm is double that... the issue is being nuclear and not weight..

Very amusing ..
Prahaar has a length of 7.3 meters and diameter of 420 mm ..... Can weig1280 kgs or more..

Is that amusing ..