DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[plugwater]

Armand is right in everything except in polish part.

 

[Bangalorean]

The whole point of DRDO is to make the procurement % more Indian. With procurement mounting to 80% being imports, it is failing miserably. With the $100 billion to be spent in the next five years, it is only going to get worse.

I agree with this. Frankly, this should be the single factor determining the decision on whether DRDO is a "failure" or a "success". It is a shame that we are still importing more and more stuff, even after 65+ years.

I don't care about what the reasons for delay are. Someone was mentioning that the scientists get paid very small amounts, and there is no motivation, etc. Why should a layman bother about all that? Increase the salaries, increase the incentive then, and see if you can make something worthwhile - the reduction in import bill will more than offset the costs.

All this talk of salaries, "less than 1/10 of Chinese budget", etc. are just excuses.

 

[pankaj nema]

Why we expect 100 percent components of LCA or Arjun to be indigenious

All countries use imported parts in their so called indigenious equipment

DRDO has done a lot for Indian defence

And slowly DRDO is ACHIEVING and completing its old projects one by one

We are not Saudi Arabia to buy everything from abroad SO we need to do our own research and development
ie DRDO is a necessity

Neithe we have SUGAR daddies like Pakistan has ie China and US

And today JVs are the name of the game

Even if we are partially successful but through JVs we can pool human resources resources and money
and get things done

Be positive and patient The future is very bright

This year at least the Big ticket items such as
LCA LSP 7 and 8 will be ready ; Agni 5 will fly ; Arjun Mark 2 will be successful and we will all be happy :thumb:

 

[pmaitra]

I agree with this. Frankly, this should be the single factor determining the decision on whether DRDO is a "failure" or a "success". It is a shame that we are still importing more and more stuff, even after 65+ years.

I don't care about what the reasons for delay are. Someone was mentioning that the scientists get paid very small amounts, and there is no motivation, etc. Why should a layman bother about all that? Increase the salaries, increase the incentive then, and see if you can make something worthwhile - the reduction in import bill will more than offset the costs.

All this talk of salaries, "less than 1/10 of Chinese budget", etc. are just excuses.

Regression vs. Classification problem!

 

[Armand2REP]

LCA failed to get IOC yet again. It was supposed to be inducted in the late nineties. You want to blame sanctions, but then DRDO should be able to develop on its own, that is the point of the organisation. It is pushed back to 2014 and will probably be pushed back again. This is no good...

For Tejas, the wait continues - Bangalore - DNA

 

[venkat]

^^^ Armand,if DRDO is in France how would you run it, instead of shutting it!!! The draw back here it is
a) Lack of Expertise , everything is to be started from scratch and the foundation is weak
b) Dependence on external sources for raw material
c) very long lead times for material procurement
d) lack of accountability
e) Govt support and massive backing
f) not run on commercial and business lines
g) society linked management. Indian culture is diverse ,various factors like caste,reservations,regionalism,linguistic bias all have their own effects during selection of candidates,promotions etc...

 

[Armand2REP]

^^^ Armand,if DRDO is in France how would you run it, instead of shutting it!!! The draw back here it is
a) Lack of Expertise , everything is to be started from scratch and the foundation is weak
b) Dependence on external sources for raw material
c) very long lead times for material procurement
d) lack of accountability
e) Govt support and massive backing
f) not run on commercial and business lines
g) society linked management. Indian culture is diverse ,various factors like caste,reservations,regionalism,linguistic bias all have their own effects during selection of candidates,promotions etc...

a) India is the largest recipient of offsets in the world. What is DRDO doing with that foundation India pays so much for?
b) It is R&D, not responsible for production. Getting raw material for prototypes is not the issue.
c) same as b
d) What is CAG doing?
e) privatise it
f) same as e
g) make it merit based

In short: more accountability, make better use of offsets, privatise labs, change hiring and promotion practice.

That is refering to your queries. The other big thing I would change is focusing my limited budget on a narrow range of technologies instead of reinventing bug repellent. You will always buy off-the-shelf so don't be afraid to let some things go.

 

[Bangalorean]

Regression vs. Classification problem!

Please elaborate.

As far as I am concerned, if the amount of tech knowhow that has been transferred to India as "offsets" were to be handled by a private organization, we would have managed to build our own version of the Rafale or Eurofighter instead of celebrating expenditure of tens of billions of dollars going to foreign companies.

An "aspiring superpower" cannot import equipment for armed forces. It is simply unacceptable.

 

[niharjhatn]

DRDO has many ventures in many fields. Some very visible, some not so visible. A very noteworthy example would be its food laboratories. MRE rations created by DRDO really are a lifesaver. Another very noteworthy example would be electronic warfare. Under DRDO's supervision, the samyukhta electronic warfare system was created, one that is highly appreciated by all arms of armed forces.

DRDO is a large organization with a very wide spread. It succeeds sometime, while it fails sometime. But calling it a failure would be a bit of a stretch.

Great point !

IMO it is simply too widely dispersed. EVERYTHING needs to come from the same organization. If you want successful research, tailor individuals to a different organization which was created for a much more narrow window of tasks, rather than the mess that exists currently.

 

[Bangalorean]

Here is a post I made a few months back about DRDO, in a different

If anyone still pins their hopes on PSU organizations such as DRDO, they are deluding themselves.

We have been pouring money into these bottomless cash pits for decades, with little to show for it. Work culture in such places is terrible. Until sweeping changes are introduced, we will not see them delivering anything that the defence forces can use. I concede that ISRO is one of the better PSUs we have, but all the others such as DRDO, NAL, LRDE, etc. etc. are pathetic to the core.

I quote from the following comment on another blog (link below) (credit goes to 'Sandesh' of churumuri):

Anna-sambar & the price of ISRO's moon mission � churumuri

Having worked for a while in DRDO (LRDE actually) and now at one of the IITs, I have seen both academic and DRDO worlds. Mt two cents.

a) @Vinay, I think what folks here are demanding is a little *accountability*. No doubt, space and defense research is expensive and justified, the question is— Is the money being spent correctly ? When you pour in crores and crores of money, you expect some deliverables right? The biggest problem with DRDO is that there has been little product development commensurate with money it has received. Surely, anyone would question the futility of pouring money to these guzzlers which produce no results.

b) Contrary to what Khan might want us to believe, selection to DRDO labs and ISRO is not all 'merit based'. DRDO (and others) have not been able to attract top ranked students even from local engg colleges. Those who join are disillusioned after a couple of months..when the seniors tell them to chill out and relax, no work is assigned, and most of the time is spent on tea, lunch and more tea. Unless, the work culture changes I don't see DRDO producing anything that the defense can use.

c) No accountability. I remember that majors from army/navy/air force used to visit DRDO and the so called scientists (right from group leaders), used to shiver when these visits were scheduled. The majors would be so annoyed with non-progress in terms of product, field trials, support system, technology transfers. The few products developed are substandard, behind state of the art by 20 years and since army can't take chances in a war, we end up buying weapons from other countries (israel, russia, france and so on).

d) Once you enter DRDO you are taken care for lifetime. You get staff quarters, essential commodities at throw away prices, 8-5 working hours, no projects, and pension when you retire. It is very easy to go into the regular time pass mood and most scientists are in that mood. Those very few who work hard go away from DRDO after a few years. Overall, it is considered an 'easy life' for scientists who join DRDO.

e) DRDO scientists are now 'encouraged' to do PhD. IITs have separate quota for these scientists for the MTech and PhD courses. The pathetic level of knowledge these girls (and guys) have is a serious concern. Anyway they are least interested in gaining knowledge. They are here to get a course completion certificate which allows them to jump ahead in the career.

f) One big difference b/w US and Indian defense labs are that US defense labs (such as at Las Alamos, Argonne etc) are very very attractive for bright students. There are short term careers for those who join US labs. Once they come out, top institutions scramble to take them in. So, it is considered a great achievement to join one of the US defense labs. Can we say the same to DRDO labs ??

g) US invests heavily in the universities. Their defense comes from three sources–labs, universities, and private developers (who again are bright students from top ranking univs). India invests least in universities. A 'fast track' grant from DST takes 8-9 months to be approved and the money sanctioned is not more than 17 lakhs. This is hardly a good amount to even replicate the state of the art in the field. Also, unlike US, we have hundreds of different grant agencies (DBT, DIT, DST, CSIR,"¦) which all are plagued by the same bureaucracy problems. There is very little amount for research in IITs. Imagine the local univs and NITs.

h) hate to say this"¦ but the quality of engineers produced in India is very very poor. Those coming out of IITs, only 20% are really good. The others are only marginally better than the rest of India. And all engineers eye only s/w as profession (no fault of them though). There is hardly an ambition to take up challenges, explore new avenues and vistas, develop technology. Everyone wants a s/w job, get paid (get laid), go onsite, and procrastinate.

i) ISRO on the other hand does one job and they do it pretty good, i.e., launch spaceships/ rockets. The moon mission guzzled so much of money and used technologies from abroad as pay loads. The moon mineral mapper came from US. If ISRO shuts up its mouth, works hard on improving technology (stops taking the sons/daughters of employers as 'trainees'), and provides full details on money utilized there is no reason why space program cannot be continued. Until there is transparency, tax payers have every right to question the (f)utility of dumping money on these labs.

j) Does ISRO wants to give us data ?? Ask someone like me who approached ISRO for data on moonmapper and was told to get lost..unless I fill in hundreds of papers and write a formal proposal explaining why I need it. After 8-9 months, they would 'consider' it.

 

[Param]

I think in missile technology DRDO has got its place.no doubt in that..perhaps what it should do stream line resources and man power.It has got the talent but no man management..."chaltha hai " kind of attitude.This must change.Otherwise it is just waste of money.Its always been our experience that no govt organization is efficient...

I was not talking about missile tech in general but only BMD.

Just think_ Trishul failed(I think there was some seeker problem), Akash took 25 years to become successful but somehow we successfully made a complicated BMD that shoots down incoming IRBMs.
Isn't something weird?

When India wanted Arrow from Israel, US did not allow the sale. But who knows what tech Israel sold us later?

 

[venkat]

^^^ Trishul had no seeker!!!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Even Akash have no seekers...

Akash and Trishul both were Advance Guideline based SAM..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

A Country full of corruption, Just had 60 years of Independence..

And started making its first generations of Weaponry systems, I wont call it as Failure but raising Organisation..

 

[Bhon]

DRDO is anything but a failure. Coming from a time when it's defense budget is much lesser than China, Russia and the US, it has made massive progress into various defense fields that have extreme technology restrictions throughout the world. It's nuclear BMS a.k.a Agni series, has been single-handedly developed by India with Dr. Kalam. And they have been seeing success so far. Our other missile systems like Priithvi, Prahaar are able to compete with comparable missile systems elsewhere. And to think that a lot of this has been done when India was not a dear friend of NATO or faced massive cutbacks due to its nuclear tests.

It has developed HAL Marut and the modern LCA, the latter from scratch. Our first indigenous engine is currently underway and once that is developed, India can claim to be a part of the few nations that can develop their own jet engines. We have even developed own own nuclear powered sub and aircraft carrier.

Defense sources say that our own Arjun tank reportedly ran circles around the T-90 and has an endogenously developed composite armor system that can rival the best worldwide.

Granted, that the DRDO has a reputation for delivering jobs a little way out of schedule, but again it has built most of the techs from scratch. So, I think it deserves some respect for being the frontier defense research organization of our country.

 

[Tshering22]

DRDO is not itself a failure. It is the policy makers that screwed up the organization. DRDO has some of the finest scientific talent in the country that is able to churn out weapons on a shoestring budget compared to the money that China, Russia and USA throw into their defense research. The worst problem is that DRDO is NOT under the PMO directly; unlike ISRO which is able to function very effectively due to very limited channels for clearance. While I don't expect MMS and Co. to work miracles, having limited number of clearance agencies would make a hell lot of difference for the DRDO scientists.

Also, DRDO itself would greatly be relieved if we simply scrapped and I mean literally scrapped the waste and useless Ministry of Defense's current working structure. Without the presence of field level officers directly controlling the workings, MOD is a failure with a bunch of ignorant bureaucrats running a circus. Unless someone of a 3 star level or a 2-star level is there who has maximum recency of being on field heads the ministry, it will continue to falter and slow down our defense modernization.

If DRDO is given the same free hand that a bloody DGCA or AAI is given in civil aviation sector, it would be the most rapid advancing defense research body in entire Asia.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Either way DRDO and HAL are all Socialist era lag backs. They are not part of the new economy, we are just to afraid of letting them go even if they are nit functioning at 100%. We should take hints from the developing world and not use state run organization to do our research.

 

[Armand2REP]

DRDO is not itself a failure. It is the policy makers that screwed up the organization. DRDO has some of the finest scientific talent in the country that is able to churn out weapons on a shoestring budget.

Is that finest talent after the ones from IIT leave for greener pastures? Does India's finest talent really stick around at DRDO? They have one of the highest turn-over rates of any R&D organisation in the world. That shoestring budget has been quadrupled in the last 5 years... where are the results?

 

[Bhon]

Is that finest talent after the ones from IIT leave for greener pastures? Does India's finest talent really stick around at DRDO? They have one of the highest turn-over rates of any R&D organisation in the world. That shoestring budget has been quadrupled in the last 5 years... where are the results?

You really cannot expect a person to stick around for a lesser salary than he or she is entitled to. That said, in recent times, IITans are going for R&D sectors. That shoestring budget has quadrupled but so has the price of everything else. We need to denote a larger portion of our GDP to the defense research sector and that can only be done if the present bureaucratic structure is exchanged for a more rapid structure such as a structure where the scientists are in direct contact with the men in the field and not via an office worker.

 

[Bhon]

Either way DRDO and HAL are all Socialist era lag backs. They are not part of the new economy, we are just to afraid of letting them go even if they are nit functioning at 100%. We should take hints from the developing world and not use state run organization to do our research.

Our country's defense research can only be handed over to privatized organizations when there is a definite set of rules like the US system to prevent espionage. However, companies like TATA, L&T are coming into the defense sector and collaborating with DRDO. State run organisation is not an issue, look at China for example. The issue is smooth operating of the organisation.