DRDO Multical Rifle Unveiled

[pmaitra]

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A very well written article by an educated and well informed author. He is the same man who was photographed testing the MCIWS. It appears, he travelled to ARDE as a private visitor. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

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Danvir Singh



"Amidst media reports of the Indian Army scraping the search for a multi-calibre assault rifle from foreign vendors, a team from the Indian Defence Review (IDR) visited the Armament Research Development Establishment (ARDE) at Pune recently. It was an exercise undertaken to understand the efforts made by Indian scientists in developing an indigenous assault rifle; a call unheard thus far. "

Sir,

He visited ARDE as part of a team from Indian defence review, being associate editor himself to do a story on ARDE.

He himself has not been pleased with Insas in past and had said" insas is demonstration of poor research and development",having said that insas is past .what matter now is that the selection is made based on merit.I myself would like indigenous rifle to be selected,but based on its merit rather than being selected due to quota system of rifle.As I have said earlier, army should collaborate with ARDE and help in suggesting and implementing improvement which would bring mciws to their standards of an ideal weapon system.


An assault rifle can claim success when:

1 Army and special forces of other countries adopt it without any subsidy or because you are giving them out for free.

OR

2 Chinese start making copies of it.

I had already read what you have written. He visited as part of this website, Indian Defence Review. This means, he visited ARDE as a private visitor, and not as part of a government fact finding mission.

Yes, a rifle should be picked on merit, and not on looks.

In the recent trials, all foreign weapons proved to lack merit and the INSAS Excalibur came out to be the best. So, at least in this case, there is no dispute as far as merit is concerned. The point is, a rifle will need user inputs to resolve problems, and that is not possible without actually inducting it. This is true for the Kalashnikov family and the M-16 family as well.

I hope the MCIWS also comes out with flying colours in its tests.

 

[pmaitra]

So @pmaitra ,it seems like the developers have moved back to the old long stroke piston gas system in this new prototype,don't you think??

Let me hypothesize.

We have the following potential rounds that may be fired from the MCIWS:

7.62×54 mm (too large?)
7.62x51 mm (too large?)
7.62×39 mm
6.8×43 mm
5.56×45 mm
5.45x39 mm​

So, the amount of gas pressure created in the barrel will be different. The MCIWS does look like having a long stroke gas piston, and there is most likely going to be a gas regulator. I suppose this is a design necessity given the versatility this system seeks to achieve.

 

[tharun]

Let me hypothesize.

We have the following potential rounds that may be fired from the MCIWS:

7.62×54 mm (too large?)
7.62x51 mm (too large?)
7.62×39 mm
6.8×43 mm
5.56×45 mm
5.45x39 mm​

Why these many rounds?
why can't we use just one round

 

[pmaitra]

Why these many rounds?
why can't we use just one round

Well, I guess that is the point of this thread.

MCIWS = Multi-Calibre . . . (rest of it is not necessary to answer your question)

 

[Blood+]

Let me hypothesize.

We have the following potential rounds that may be fired from the MCIWS:

7.62×54 mm (too large?)
7.62x51 mm (too large?)
7.62×39 mm
6.8×43 mm
5.56×45 mm
5.45x39 mm​

​

You can delete the first two and the last one,at least as per the things are right now.Lets keep the could be or would be part for the future and lets concentrate on what has been made assured for now.

So, the amount of gas pressure created in the barrel will be different. The MCIWS does look like having a long stroke gas piston, and there is most likely going to be a gas regulator. I suppose this is a design necessity given the versatility this system seeks to achieve.

Well,I don't see any necessity for going on with the old long stroke piston,just to make the gun multi caliber capable.The type of reload system has got no bearings on the usability of different small arms calibers anyway.I mean,a short stroke piston driven gas system can do every thing as its long stroke counterpart with enhanced efficiency but most importantly,without the added disadvantage of the former of the disruption of the point of aim due to the rapid and continuous shifting of the center of mass back and forth,during each and every action cycle, and energetic and abrupt stops at the beginning and end of bolt carrier travel,and also, due to the greater mass of moving parts, more gas is required to operate the system.

But in case of a short stroke piston,it feels like a gentle tap at the front age of the bolt carrier assembly,like billiards,making it far more controllable during medium to long bursts.

There is a reason,the world is moving on to the short stroke piston way,and I just don't seem to realize why we have to do it any different.

 

[Raja Rajan]

Dear members I am a newbee to the forum.Thank you all for admitting in this forum..Just following MCIWS from DRDO..The older prototype seems to be having the gas port at 45 degrees and the newer prototype looks like changed to a vertical one.Please clarify the functional significance in this design change..

 

[ezsasa]

Dear members I am a newbee to the forum.Thank you all for admitting in this forum..Just following MCIWS from DRDO..The older prototype seems to be having the gas port at 45 degrees and the newer prototype looks like changed to a vertical one.Please clarify the functional significance in this design change..

From what i understood about this issue.....

A 45 degree hole will be slightly bigger and oval than a hole drilled at 90 degree. since the bullet not only travels forward but also rotates in the barrel, smaller hole makes the design of the barrel more efficient. look up for the term "Bullet shear".

there may be some other reasons too, other members can contribute...

 

[ghost]

My concept of MCIWS .

original rifle with modified handguard.

Carbine version of original design.

Assault rifle.

Carbine.

LMG

Sniper Rifle.

Semi automatic shotgun.

 

[sreenevasachha]

nice work done by ghot
is it possible develop LMG , and SNIPER on platform of MCIWS

 

[Austinjimson]

My concept of MCIWS .

original rifle with modified handguard.

Carbine version of original design.

Assault rifle.

Carbine.

LMG

Sniper Rifle.

Semi automatic shotgun.

Present to OFB, ishapore rifle factory. Hope they can make them and give it to our armed forces.

Sent from my GT-I8730 using Tapatalk

 

[punjab47]

X54 outdated x51 too heavy x39 check
6.8mm experimental
5.56 standard

The game Arma 3 with rhs mod for current usa & Russian army also has, reasonable 15-30yr timeline in standard.

Two guns they have for mid 2030s
12.7 & 8.5mm single man mmgs.

With 6.5mm being standard,

Quad stacked magazines & even caseless ammo.

Is that plausible? Well in 20yrs we went from 3.5kg 12.5" ak-102 to 3kg 16" excalibur

--
I think as materials improve 5.56 will be phased out for 6.5 but within 250m especially in forest,

Ak47/103/104 is king, the lethality of the

762x39 is unquestionable it just drops a lot past 200m which is why modern armies phased it out.

With optics 200m is no longer preferred range. Within it though & maybe a modernized version, with more fps maybe we will see it return.

63gr 3000fps 5.56 v 124gr 2350fps 7.62 =

Basically a 11" vs 20" drop at 300yds
&
15 vs 27 at 350.

Both have their own issues past 300,

But atleast 5.56 can hit, if there was way to keep recoil in check & let it fly faster.

It would be different battlefield entirely,

At 100yds

1300 vs 1100 ftlb energy & 1100 vs 900 at 200 in favor of 762.

762 has large armor pen advantage, & ak only has 14.5" barrel vs 18-20 for 5.56.

That's why all paramilitary prefer 762, it's basically an Lmg. Volume of fire matters past a certain point of accuracy & I would say lot of our coin success is due to using a heavier bullet compared to usa.

F35 shows you can't standardize & succeed.

If 6.5mm becomes standard then adopt. 338 magnum for jungle, it's very good we have multiple competing designs to push envelope.

Russia has been stagnant since 47 & usa since mid 50s, China since mid 70s tbh we're only ones pushing envelope tbh.

Bullpup seems nice but outside of extreme urban environment, it's not worth higher failure rate.

When Hindus put their mind to it, they always make best.

Go on youtube & look up ishapore 2a1 watch how americans snarl in jealousy that it's best bolt action.

Same with here, I'm very interested to see how OFB modernizes the 7.62x39 round as we'll be writing the book on coin from here on in.

Even a 2.5" longer barrel along with modern materials & more ergonomic design will add a lot of velocity while reducing recoil.

Modern propellants adding just 150fps reduces bullet drop by 10" at 300yds.

Making it like a worse 5.45 i.e

10,12,16" drops

Going up to 2600-2800fps basically makes the 124gr bullet on par with the 55/63gr 5.45&5.56.

While the smaller calibers allow more ammo to be carried, improved carrying systems & increasing prevalence of armor may see return of 7.62.

I trust drdo to come up with some new backpack & webbing/strap system that allows for 10-20% more ammo at least.

That would equalize the 12 vs 16.5g avg weight difference of Insas v ak47 bullets.

Not to mention other things are possible,

Before it would been difficult to create our own variants of ammunition now it's all wide open.

 

[punjab47]

& with increasing accessories, honestly recoil of ak103 is not so bad with muzzle brake.

That trichy gun should be interested & will probably get phased into micws which will probably combine with excalibur.

I think we're 5-10 years for single weapons family for all services, but it will definitely be worth wait. As lot of research & material design improvements are required before we settle on a

5/6mm weapon for standard infantry &
7/8mm weapon for assault.

 

[Twinblade]

Going by m-16/m-4 example and the choice of body and furniture by ARDE, this is what MCIWS carbine version should look like (photo chop onlee)

 

[Dark Sorrow]

@ghost

Why the hand grip in LMG and sniper version???

 

[ghost]

@ghost

Why the hand grip in LMG and sniper version???

The vertical fore grip is just a add on accessory(optional) .I have provided it on sniper and LMG because this is one of the accessory which should be a standard issued.To use it or not , should be at discretion of the soldier(at least he should be provided with the option).


Some of the advantages of vertical fore grip as commonly stated by the users are:

1 It help to control the jump of the rifle more effectively and keep the muzzle on target.

2 Easier target acquisition,improve reflex shooting.

3 In sustained firing the barrel of the gun and hand-guard becomes very hot,vertical fore-grip keep you hands away from all this heat.

4 Using vertical fore grip leaves adequate free space in your hand-guard to mount other accessory such as flash light,laser etc.


5 Allow the rifle to be firmly seated in the shoulder by applying rearward pressure.


6 help users get a proper support hand grip without the wrist strain that some shooters experience when gripping high on the fore end.



7 Can act as a bipod,thus help in more stable shooting.



8 More comfortable ;less fatigue.




Disadvantage:

1 More additional attachment to your rifle,more additional weight.

2 People feel that traditional shooting stance with support hand on hand guard is better ,it will integrate the muscular chain of your body better ;to help bring the weapon system tighter into your body.



In lmg and sniper rifle we generally use traditional bipod ,which help in stabilizing the LMG in case of sustained firing and sniper rifle for accurate shots by resting the bipod in a fixed position.But ,there are times when both lmg gunner and sniper have to shoot without any fixed support,while standing ,in motion or have to get involved in CQB at certain times.At such times, I think a vertical fore grip helps the shooter.Plus ,there are certain times when we have to mount several other accessory on our hand-guard which make it difficult to have traditional grip on a rifle hand-guard.


People either love vertical fore grip or hate it,they have their reasons for it.I feel we should provide the option of vertical fore grip as standard accessory with a rifle.The decision to use it should be left at sole discretion of a soldier.

For such times.

 

[Chris Jude]

The MCIWS seems to be a very capable weapon on sight, but for its different trials that it has to pass, and if it does, It should be a preferred weapon for the Infantry, with all three modes, and calibres, hope it does not get sidelined by the testing people from the Indian Army and our corrupt babus in the government, It also looks similiar to the AK12 but looks more refined, above everything else Its an Indian Indigenously developed weapon, thats what makes the difference, and if there be any drawbacks while testing or trials, it should be rectified and tried again instead of it finding the bin!

 

[Chris Jude]

M4 is not multicaliber.

It should not be sent to the Army that early. They will definitely find faults, hence it should be internally tested to army standards and all possible defects rectified, first.

Given to the Indian Army with a penchant for imports, they will kill the rifle before it even matures for continuous operation.

Indian Army with its friends in the arms lobby felt a bit slighted when all the multicaliber rifles tested recently failed. What succeeded was a much simpler Excalibur rifle, which the army does not like. This multical Indian built rifle will definitely fail under one or the other extreme testing standards and then the army will make a big deal out of it. They do not see the reality that even M4 or M16 also fail under one or the other extreme conditions.

If possible, send it to Israel for testing. They will be more independent than the sales commission minded brass of the Indian army.

I liked your Idea of sending it to Israel for testing which would avoid all the corrupt goons trying to finish it off!

 

[Chris Jude]

hope this come with

hope they will use cheek butt guard so that eyes are in line with red dot and the target.

It would be nice if some suggestions like these are given to the DRDO or ARDE!

 

[tharun]

which guns are these???????????/

 

[aagni99]

Just A Comparison of the two models..... Any Major Difference?