Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[pavanvenkatesh]

The army is not totally rejecting the arjun, according to the livefist blog the army has given some recommendations for improvements for mk2 versions but hey have praised it to be an excellent platform for upgrades moreover its known that army general has given a written letter appriciating the arjun so i don't think this is the end of arjun. so after modifications recomended by the army and if complient to the militery doctrine it can be inducted in the future

 

[Soham]

The truth about Arjun lies somewhere in the middle, I believe we can get a lesson from the mightiest tank force in history the one that crushed the whermacht's armored fist i am talking about the tank armies of the soviet union. The soviets in WW2 adopetd an innovative strategem of employing heavy tanks in coordination with lighter more mobile forces and artillery. The Soviets typically used two types of armor the powerful and agile T-34/85 and the indomitable JS 111. The agenda was clear any assault on enemy strongholds would be spearheaded by the fast moving T-34 divisions when these divisions ran into a stone wall(read Tigers and konigstigers) the JS 111 would be sent in. We i believe need to adopt a similar approach both Arjun and T-90 have their roles to play. While the T-90 can be at the spearhead of any rapid thrust the Arjun must be inducted and retained for situations where we face Tanks(read T-80UD) that are as if not more powerful than the T-90.
The Arjun may not be a victim of corruption on the scale that is so hotly debated numerous times by our members , however all is not as hunky dory in the MoD as some may want us to believe. the fact remains that we have had a primarily Russian tank force since the late 60's i.e for nearly 40 yrs , No one in their right minds can advocate that the IA give up such an old tradition so abruptly ;at the same time Indigenous development must be encouraged as well.

There would be two questions for your argument.

1) What heavy armour are we likely to encounter ?
2) Would Cold Start allow enough time for a second wave of Arjuns ?

 

[p2prada]

I was told that T90 manufactured in India is 2 million USD cheaper than Arjun, but still that doesn't explain the reason why IA is unwilling to induct more Arjun. Massive induction of Arjun can reduce its price.

You need to go back and read my posts again. The cost of procurement of the T-90 obviously dwarfs the cost of operation. During a war, cost of operation is what matters. The $2 Million quoted does not specify if it is for a Fully ready tank Arjun tank or not, while the T-90 is fully ready. The T-90 cost escalation is because of some foreign acquisitions like the Catherine Thermals from France. Not to mention buying more armaments. The problem is the T-90 price being quoted is for the tank, its ammo and tools while Arjun's costs being quoted are unit costs. The actual unit costs of the Indian T-90 version is not public while the Arjun unit costs are available.

The Army is not trying to convince the public on their purchase. Only half informed journos are making stupid claims on why the army did not purchase the Arjun.

After all, T90 is a Rassian tank, even if India is licensed to produce it. But Arjun is totally a Indian tank, designed by Indian, developed by Indian. If it is because of finance, then just limit the total number of the main battle tanks.
And one thing more, if you buy T90, money flowsto russian, if you buy Arjun, money flows to indian in the end.

Most of the components are not Indian on the Arjun. All essential and critical systems are Israeli or German. We just made the mechanical parts like armour and chassis. That's why the Army as asked for the development of the Arjun Mk2 with a lot of Indian components including a new engine.

 

[bengalraider]

There would be two questions for your argument.

1) What heavy armour are we likely to encounter ?
Ans- Pakistan could acquire the Chinese T-99 in the near future, and even if the Pakistanis do not get the T-99 ;doesn't having a more heavily armored tank than the T-80UD help?
2) Would Cold Start allow enough time for a second wave of Arjuns ?
Ans- Would Pakistani nuclear saber rattling allow even a first wave of T-90's?if it did then there is no reason why after the first rapid thrust (which would logically have to circumvent massed enemy armor to prevent getting bogged down)The arjuns can't be sent to clear out the enemy strongholds left within captured territory

 

[plugwater]

Arjun Meets Performance Objectives, Team Waits For Army's Report

The indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT) has "met all performance objectives" at the recent month-long trials in Rajasthan, according to sources who witnessed them. The Army's trial is expected to submit its report and findings latest by the end of this month. Despite what the Defence Ministry seems to be putting out, DRDO is confident that the game isn't over -- that the Army may still be prevailed upon to place an order for at least 176 more tanks.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/03/arjun-meets-performance-objectives-team.html

 

[Armand2REP]

1) What heavy armour are we likely to encounter ?
Ans- Pakistan could acquire the Chinese T-99 in the near future, and even if the Pakistanis do not get the T-99 ;doesn't having a more heavily armored tank than the T-80UD help?
2) Would Cold Start allow enough time for a second wave of Arjuns ?
Ans- Would Pakistani nuclear saber rattling allow even a first wave of T-90's?if it did then there is no reason why after the first rapid thrust (which would logically have to circumvent massed enemy armor to prevent getting bogged down)The arjuns can't be sent to clear out the enemy strongholds left within captured territory

Don't you ever wonder why Pakistan hasn't acquired the Type 99 yet? Quite frankly, the T-80UD is a better armoured MBT. Even their Al Khalids are full of European stuff. The level of Chinese tank technology is deficient just as is their fighter jets. The biggest upgrade Pak tanks are going for is the Metis thermals by Thales which are downgraded versions of the Catherine FC. If Pakistan wanted Chinese latest tanks they could have them, but they don't want them just as they don't want J-10s and Chinese avionics in the JF-17. Pakistan is more interested in pretending they can build things, using Chinese help, and installing Western hardware on it to bring it up to a decent level. We all should know the routine by now.

 

[bengalraider]

Don't you ever wonder why Pakistan hasn't acquired the Type 99 yet? Quite frankly, the T-80UD is a better armoured MBT. Even their Al Khalids are full of European stuff. The level of Chinese tank technology is deficient just as is their fighter jets. The biggest upgrade Pak tanks are going for is the Metis thermals by Thales which are downgraded versions of the Catherine FC. If Pakistan wanted Chinese latest tanks they could have them, but they don't want them just as they don't want J-10s and Chinese avionics in the JF-17. Pakistan is more interested in pretending they can build things, using Chinese help, and installing Western hardware on it to bring it up to a decent level. We all should know the routine by now.

The present T-99 may be somewhat deficient but in the near future china may bring in an improved version.similar is the case with the J-10 and the JF-17.

 

[Armand2REP]

The present T-99 may be somewhat deficient but in the near future china may bring in an improved version.similar is the case with the J-10 and the JF-17.

How near is near? We are talking 10 years before they even get the technology of the last generation. While they are busy reinventing the wheel we will be moving on to hypersonic speeds.

 

[gogbot]

"Arjun Meets Performance Objectives"

The indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT) has "met all performance objectives" at the recent month-long trials in Rajasthan, according to sources who witnessed them. The Army's trial is expected to submit its report and findings latest by the end of this month. Despite what the Defence Ministry seems to be putting out, DRDO is confident that the game isn't over -- that the Army may still be prevailed upon to place an order for at least 176 more tanks. Watch this space.

Lets hope for good news, this can be the start of something beautiful.


Arjun

T-90

Tank-EX

 

[gogbot]

How near is near? We are talking 10 years before they even get the technology of the last generation. While they are busy reinventing the wheel we will be moving on to hypersonic speeds.

Its already been 10 years since they first showed the world the T-99

we have to wary that there has been a passage of time.

 

[Rage]

Who is Shiv Aroor to declare the comparative results of the trials? How is he privy to this information? Who are his "sources"?

I think we should wait out an official report before 'jumping the gun'.


On another note, and speaking of guns, I've always been curious as to the Mag 7.62 mm Tk715 machine gun on the Arjun? Why is it not remotely-operated? The crew has to bl@@dy come out to be able to use the machine gun on the turret, exposing themselves to enemy fire. Does anybody know if a remotely-operated gun-station is being developed?

 

[gogbot]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

DRDO is continuing to develop some new technology systems for MBT Arjun.


1. Automatic target locating, tracking and destruction.

2. DRDO is developing the Tank Urban Survival Kit which is a series of improvements to the Arjun intended to improve fighting ability in urban environments which includes defensive aids like laser warning, IR jammer, and aerosol smoke grenade system.

3. CVRDE is in the process of developing tank simulators.

4. DRDO is developing a Laser Warning Control System (LWCS) in cooperation with Elbit Limited of Israel to be equipped on the Arjun at regimental level trials with T-90s. The MCS is being developed by DRDO to help the tank reduce the threat of interference from all types of sensors and smart munitions of the enemy in the tank's systems. LWCS includes laser warning system, Infra Red jammers and aerosol grenade smokes, and will help reduce the signatures of the tank in the battle field and help it improve its survivability. DRDO is also co-developing the and Mobile Camouflaging System (MCS) technology along with a Gurgaon-based private sector defence manufacturer Barracuda Camouflaging Limited.

5. A new improved 1500 hp engine.

6. DRDO also plans to develop robotic that will work on tele-linking Arjuns in addition to make the tracking of targets automatic.

7. An anti-helicopter round is under development as well.



Well we know, that new technologies on the Arjun are being developed.

We also know that the T-90's built in India have a remote controlled machine gun.
And in fact use the same type of secondary weapons.

its not inconceivable to expect Some one DRDO to simply take a look at the T-90 secondary weapon systems and adapt it for the Arjun.
I mean its just and internally controlled machine gun or anti-aircraft gun.

It will just be one of those incremental updates.

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

Who is Shiv Aroor to declare the comparative results of the trials? How is he privy to this information? Who are his "sources"?

I think we should wait out an official report before 'jumping the gun'.


On another note, and speaking of guns, I've always been curious as to the Mag 7.62 mm Tk715 machine gun on the Arjun? Why is it not remotely-operated? The crew has to bl@@dy come out to be able to use the machine gun on the turret, exposing themselves to enemy fire. Does anybody know if a remotely-operated gun-station is being developed?

Not just being developed it is already developed, many countries already use remotly operated gun station in there MBT's

 

[sayareakd]

@rage and Pavan

OFB which is maker of Arjun tank has already develop and made this remotly control weapon station.
It is already in use in some of the vehicles.
you will find the info here http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/29.htm

Stablised Remote Controlled Weapon Station (SRCWS)

Remote Operation
Constantly evolving threat situations call for force multiplication, greater accuracy and terminal effect from a weapon system. The SRCWS provides an optimal solution for achieving this.

The SRCWS aims to counter threats in unpredictable situations by making it possible for an appropriate weapon system like 7.62 mm GPMG and 12.7 mm HMG to be operated through remote control with high dexterity from inside a protected vehicle.

The station is compact, lightweight and low silhouette system equipped with high resolution collimated optic pod, continuous zoom, day and night sight capability, laser range finder and designator.

The above advanced sub-systems enable remote surveillance, observation and targeting through the ergonomically designed monitor.

Additional features are tracking and video motion detection (VMD) which enable real time effective surveillance. Manual override is provided.

Optional built-in support for platform network integration including inertial navigation, C4I integration and wireless remote control can be provided.

 

[sayareakd]

here i found great pic of OFB mine protection vehicle with remote weapons station at our Parliament

 

[Rage]

@ Gog, cheers on the post mate. I am aware of the various fabrications the DRDO is developing for the Arjun. 'fact I wrote a post on it a while ago

. But I couldn''t for the life of me find a source on a new remotely operable gun-station being developed with specific applicability to the Arjun.

Not just being developed it is already developed, many countries already use remotely operated gun station in there MBT's.

Not interested in other countries mate, only in me own oooooooooooooooooooo.

---

@ sayarea, thanks for the info dawg. I knew you wouldn't fail me. But here're a couple of questions I have:

- I know the OFB's 'Trojan Mine Protection Vehicle' incorporates an RCWS based on the IMI SRWS design. I also know however that the SRWS is modular, not integrable, with integral, stabilized optronic architectures mounted primarily on mine-protection vehicles, armoured vehicles and the like. Given this , how difficult would the process of integration for the remotely-controlled gun station to the Arjun be? * Edit: I delved considerably into the issue, and found that the Wave-100 is based on 7.62mm, 12.7mm / 0.5'' machineguns and 40mm Grenade Launchers and "accommodates specific customer furnished equipment or requirements". So this takes care of this.


- The RCWS developed by the D.R.D.O.with video-motion tracking, VMD, multi-sensor day/night electro-optical payload et al, was first exhibited at DefExpo2006; 3-and-a-half-years later, why hasn't it still been mounted on to the Arjun? - Despite the pressing need to demonstrate the Arjun a more veritable platform than the T-90, despite the challenge of field trials, despite the knowledge that the Army's finding of faults'n'failures could very well mean the closing of production lines for the Arjun. This is something I simply can't fathom about the D.R.D.O.

 

[sayareakd]

@ rage that remote weapons station is not installed on Arjun tank is because of the GSQR of the IA, since IA dont want it therefore it is not installed on the Arjun tank.

On the other hand same kind of remote station has been installed on the T 90 (may be Russians have thrown in free stuff to fool us)

I personally think that this weapons station is necessary for ARjun tank, plus with few of other goodies (like rear view camera, trophy autoloader, and some other secret stuff) it will be hell of tank.

 

[sayareakd]

here is the pics from my personal collection this shows the remote weapons station and the control pannel

this is just like video game control

now just imagine that you can operate this in the safty of Arjun tank.

http://img169.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=arjunrecomendedaddon.jpg

 

[Rage]

@ rage that remote weapons station is not installed on Arjun tank is because of the GSQR of the IA, since IA dont want it therefore it is not installed on the Arjun tank.

On the other hand same kind of remote station has been installed on the T 90 (may be Russians have thrown in free stuff to fool us)

I personally think that this weapons station is necessary for ARjun tank, plus with few of other goodies (like rear view camera, trophy autoloader, and some other secret stuff) it will be hell of tank.

Thanks for the info, sayarea. 'Wasn't aware the IA had not requested for an SRCWS. It seems kinda foolish to me, that they would not want to operate their MAG 7.62mm coaxial machine gun from the safety of the confines of their armor.

Anyone have a clue as tuh why?

 

[sayareakd]

when the GSQR was made IA was under the mind set of T series tanks (T 55 and T72) present GSQR changes was made when Pakistan was planing to have M1A1 tank from US, they just hurry up and made GSQR to counter that tank. That is why Arjun look similar to M1A1 in protection.

Pakistan when failed to get M1A1 (one story said that tank failed to hit targets that is why it was cancelled) they went ahead with T80UD. To counter that IA went in for T 90S.

Actually IA should have its own unit which should work with DRDO, if that can happen both can do wonders.

I was informed by radar guys that they have installed the radar (rajandra 3D) on ships. I asked them how and they have given detail info.

I would say that DRDO should install BFSR on Arjun tank gun which is stable. once that happen and gun is integrated with Arjun tank gun and remote weapons station can take out target which are beyond its range. (it is possible to install this on Arjun tank) as they have already install this in IFV Abhay.