Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[nitesh]

Damian, you are again not getting the point and taking the discussion every where, my point is simple, the so called new shell shown does the same job what HESH round does, although with all sort of bells and whistles, and that too a brochure claim. And please check your facts HESH is effective against fortifications, that is it's primary use, secondary role as anti tank please don't twist the facts for the sake of it.

 

[nitesh]

The point you are making is as good as saying why we need the MKI. We have Mig-21 which can fire R-77s and we have Mig-27s which can bomb.

So, the MKI is completely useless right? No need to import it.

Who cares if the Mig-21, Mig-27 or HESH is obsolete? Why import the MKI when we have such wonderful systems already present. Similarly why import modern rounds when we have the old HESH round.

HESH is obsolete. It has been since the 80s. We are the only monkeys still going for it, but that's again because Arjun's gun is hopelessly obsolete and the Army does not want it anyway. Which part of "obsolete" don't you get?

Anyway we can't import from IMI because the company has been blacklisted.

Classic twisting of argument, the so called new shell does the same job what HESH does, plain and simple. The T 90 needs it to be effective against it. It is good that this thing can not be imported or else we have another import for the charade in the name of T 90 going on

 

[nitesh]

Such complex and layered structure is not even needed to counter HESH, You can make it even simpler, a let's say 80mm thick RHA plate (it does not even need to be high quality steel) with solid mounting points to the conrete bunker, space between these plates to the bunker wall can be something around 100mm, and voila, bunker is completely immune to HESH.

HESH was designed to defeat monolit steel armor etc. But just a simple spaced armor can be very efective against it, cheap also.

Please don't narrow the argument, HESH is effective against fortifications, and fortification does not mean bunker alone. the kind of war IA is going to fight will invovle paki army making a stand in towns, where lot of concrete demolition has to be done, where HESH is effective.

 

[Damian]

Damian, you are again not getting the point and taking the discussion every where, my point is simple, the so called new shell shown does the same job what HESH round does, although with all sort of bells and whistles, and that too a brochure claim. And please check your facts HESH is effective against fortifications, that is it's primary use, secondary role as anti tank please don't twist the facts for the sake of it.

... HESH was designed as anti tank ammunition... can You read something about history of tanks and anti tank weapons development? Because I really not like when someone ignore history. Only because HESH is not use in that role anymore does not mean it was not designed for it. And read carefully what I wrote, I said that it is easy and cheap to make fortifications immune to HESH.

This is why HE with programmable fuze will be better, fuze can be set to detonation after perforation, while You just can't do this with HESH because it is completely against it's working mechanism, not to mention that HESH shell can't be done hard to be capable to penetrate concrete, if someone would do this, then bye bye HESH and hello traditional HE ammo.

I'am amazed that such people like You are even speaking about doing something or not doing something.

Only because something is cheap does not mean it is good.

Sometimes to make progress and be more effective You need to spend more money. Composite armor is more expensive than simple monolit steel armor, does that mean we should back to steel armor because it is cheaper and do exactly the same thing as composite armor, that means protect vehicle, should we?

 

[nitesh]

... HESH was designed as anti tank ammunition... can You read something about history of tanks and anti tank weapons development? Because I really not like when someone ignore history. Only because HESH is not use in that role anymore does not mean it was not designed for it. And read carefully what I wrote, I said that it is easy and cheap to make fortifications immune to HESH.

please don't put words on my mouth, I never said HESH was not anti tank ammo. I said HESH is very effective against fortifications, and that is a fact. Every fortification can not be made immune to HESH, that is also a fact. Israelis are showing this new ammo, cos they found there existing ammo ineffective against fortifications.

This is why HE with programmable fuze will be better, fuze can be set to detonation after perforation, while You just can't do this with HESH because it is completely against it's working mechanism, not to mention that HESH shell can't be done hard to be capable to penetrate concrete, if someone would do this, then bye bye HESH and hello traditional HE ammo.

Again, lot of HESH rounds needed for IA, the kind of war they will be fighting will need lot of these rounds, not the exhaustive smart ammo which will be costly for a fleet of IA, please try to understand the context I am trying to convey my point

 

[Damian]

please don't put words on my mouth, I never said HESH was not anti tank ammo. I said HESH is very effective against fortifications, and that is a fact. Every fortification can not be made immune to HESH, that is also a fact. Israelis are showing this new ammo, cos they found there existing ammo ineffective against fortifications.

Of course Israelis developed new type of ammunition because their current HE and HESH ammunition is not effective. Israel have plenty of 105mm ammunition, also HESH that was developed for 105mm L7/M68 rifled gun. And hey what did they say? Screw rifled guns and their ammunition, switch to 120mm smoothbore and develop modern ammunition.

Again, lot of HESH rounds needed for IA, the kind of war they will be fighting will need lot of these rounds, not the exhaustive smart ammo which will be costly for a fleet of IA, please try to understand the context I am trying to convey my point

And how do You know that HE ammunition with programmable fuze will be more expensive. You know what will be most expensive part of that thing? Upgraded FCS with fuze programmer, ammunition itself won't be expensive, and hey this is for T-90? If I'am correct T-90 allready have FCS with fuze programmer (AINET system).

It is just another step forward for T-90 tanks in IA, from simple HE/HEF ammunition to HE/HEF with programmable fuze, that's all.

 

[nitesh]

Of course Israelis developed new type of ammunition because their current HE and HESH ammunition is not effective. Israel have plenty of 105mm ammunition, also HESH that was developed for 105mm L7/M68 rifled gun. And hey what did they say? Screw rifled guns and their ammunition, switch to 120mm smoothbore and develop modern ammunition.

It was used by Royal Engineering L9 "demolition gun" too which was used to demolish the defenses, and on what basis you claim that 120mm HESH round of Arjun as ineffective?

And how do You know that HE ammunition with programmable fuze will be more expensive. You know what will be most expensive part of that thing? Upgraded FCS with fuze programmer, ammunition itself won't be expensive, and hey this is for T-90? If I'am correct T-90 allready have FCS with fuze programmer (AINET system).

It is just another step forward for T-90 tanks in IA, from simple HE/HEF ammunition to HE/HEF with programmable fuze, that's all.

So here the point is that till now T90 fleet was without an effective ammo against fortifications, while all the time Arjun was having one, now we need to add another new ammo in to our inventory for T 90. Better not to have them, instead increase number of Arjun in the inventory

 

[p2prada]

Classic twisting of argument, the so called new shell does the same job what HESH does, plain and simple.

Nobody is twisting anything. The facts are difficult for you to fathom. The HESH round made for Arjun is obsolete and is actually 80s technology.

The T 90 needs it to be effective against it.

HESH won't even faze the T-90. HESH was always made for anti-tank warfare and is useless in today's world. One more reason why Arjun is a complete waste of time for the Army. HESH is only useful against old fortifications. The more modern ones won't be fazed by HESH. When simple tactics work against a weapon, then it is time to throw it out. The British learnt it. The IA knows about it. But DRDO's fanclub is yet to learn of it.

It is good that this thing can not be imported or else we have another import for the charade in the name of T 90 going on

We don't know whether IMI's status will remain the same because of Gen VK Singh's letter on ammunition shortage. Russians want to sell the 3BM42 at 400% increase in costs. IMI is displaying their wares in India anyway.

Anyway a HE round will be cheaper because it uses less explosives as compared to HESH.

 

[p2prada]

So here the point is that till now T90 fleet was without an effective ammo against fortifications, while all the time Arjun was having one, now we need to add another new ammo in to our inventory for T 90. Better not to have them, instead increase number of Arjun in the inventory

Who the heck said that? Or are you making it up?

 

[nitesh]

Nobody is twisting anything. The facts are difficult for you to fathom. The HESH round made for Arjun is obsolete and is actually 80s technology.

Well, HESH is effective against fortifications, that is a fact, and Arjun uses it.

HESH won't even faze the T-90. HESH was always made for anti-tank warfare and is useless in today's world. One more reason why Arjun is a complete waste of time for the Army. HESH is only useful against old fortifications. The more modern ones won't be fazed by HESH. When simple tactics work against a weapon, then it is time to throw it out. The British learnt it. The IA knows about it. But DRDO's fanclub is yet to learn of it.

You being an import fan boy does not mean that you will lie through top of your voice. Arjun never uses HESH as it's primary weapon against tanks, so you are as usual getting in to rhetorical arguments, now this new thing called older fortifications, the war IA will fight will involve fighting in urban environment where HESH will be most effective, when we have a ready made solution, just to keep the import lobby happy we need not to involve in to another nonsense of importing this so called round

We don't know whether IMI's status will remain the same because of Gen VK Singh's letter on ammunition shortage. Russians want to sell the 3BM42 at 400% increase in costs. IMI is displaying their wares in India anyway.

So Russians are blackmailing us, another good reason to get rid of this farce called T 90, better stop building them, and increase production of Arjun.

Anyway a HE round will be cheaper because it uses less explosives as compared to HESH.

Any HE round does not does what HESH does, and if you are talking about this new shell, why add unnecessary burden on logistics when we have ready made option available

 

[nitesh]

Who the heck said that? Or are you making it up?

What is use of this new round then?

 

[Damian]

Oh god... I think You completely misunderstood.

Russia from start sell to IA HEF ammunition for T-90 tanks, this ammunition can have a simple and cheap fuze replacement to use AINET system (means that simple HE ammunition becomes programmable).

But IMI is offering their own development, because Israel is very active in field of 125mm ammunition for tanks armed with russian 125mm smoothbore guns or similiar.

Simple as that, and here we have person that not only misunderstood, but also do not have knowledge and is making Arjun some sort of super tank... To Your informations, Arjun is not super tank, it is not nececary better in many terms than T-90 (no matter what some bogus sources will say, whole comparission test was a bogus with political background to promote DRDO product, not foreing one, it is obvious for anyone who is not backing any side) or any other modern 3rd generation MBT.

And I said that earlier, Arjun can be rearmed with 120mm smoothbore gun, why nobody consider this in case of Mk2 variant? Maybe someone in IA should ask important question why and who is responsible for making Your own tank in many fields obsolete? But nobody do this, there is no constructive ciriticism, only bashing T-90 or other foreing stuff on one side, and prising tank, that have obsolete armament and badly designed turret on the other side as if it was some super tank.

I completely understand problems like lack of proper funding, but I can't understand why nobody is making an anlize of foreing designs to avoid making the same mistakes as other dones... it is just reinventing the wheel again and again.

 

[sayareakd]

arjun MK-II first time on public view

[video=youtube_share;5IArBrjpLX8]http://youtu.be/5IArBrjpLX8[/video]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It is completely immposible, due to principles of HESH working mechanism and his interaction with armor. Simple spaced armor is effective against HESH, layered protection (composite) is effective against HESH, ERA is effective against HESH.

Kunal do You know how HESH is working and interacting with armor?

It does not matter, because HESH to work properly as is it designed, need to squash on armor (this is why fuze is delayed in all HESH munitions), then it explodes, causing vibrations in armor that ends in form of spall from armor inner surface, this spall is deadly for crew, but with a screen and air gap between screen and armor, effects of HESH explosion are only visible on screen, not base armor that do not interact with HESH.

My comparison was with Programmable HE, You may mistook it with something else..

HESH does explode on impact on ground, Now you can take the velocity of the round and the mass it impact with the hardness of the warhead..

 

[pmaitra]

If I may intercede here:

@Nitesh, a HESH round in never meant to penetrate, rather have a simultaneous blast on a large surface area outside the target. In case of concrete fortifications, (not apartment buildings like the picture you posted), I am not sure how effective it will be.

@Damian, you have made some good points; however, let us not forget the future while we dig deep into history. Many things are planned for a certain purpose but end up being used for a different purpose. The internet is one example. Also, it is fine to compare the gun of one tank with that of the other, but why compare T-90 and Arjun? They are not even in the same class, and they are meant to perform different roles. Politics or no politics, T-90 and Arjun complement each other, and each has its weaknesses that the other has as strength.

@P2Prada, I am myself a harsh critic of DRDO, but they need credit where it is deserved. Arjun was late, but they did deliver a good product. We cannot trash them altogether. Sure, bash DRDO for some of the silly things they do, but Arjun is not one of them, IMHO.

Also, why this comparison between HESH and smoothbore? Smoothbore simply means it is not rifled, i.e. there are no spiralling grooves inside the barrel, so the projectile will not spin. Now, there are ways to get the projectile to spin even if fired from a smoothbore. Comparing HESH and smoothbore? We are not comparing apples with apples.

 

[nitesh]

Oh god... I think You completely misunderstood.

Russia from start sell to IA HEF ammunition for T-90 tanks, this ammunition can have a simple and cheap fuze replacement to use AINET system (means that simple HE ammunition becomes programmable).

But IMI is offering their own development, because Israel is very active in field of 125mm ammunition for tanks armed with russian 125mm smoothbore guns or similiar.

I can't find a reference where T 90S is equipped with it, this feature comes in command version of the tanks, and as you previously mentioned the cost will be associated with making others tanks made capable of firing this round, whereas with Arjun no such thing need to be done.

Simple as that, and here we have person that not only misunderstood, but also do not have knowledge and is making Arjun some sort of super tank... To Your informations, Arjun is not super tank, it is not nececary better in many terms than T-90 (no matter what some bogus sources will say, whole comparission test was a bogus with political background to promote DRDO product, not foreing one, it is obvious for anyone who is not backing any side) or any other modern 3rd generation MBT.

I think, you misunderstood me sir, I am not trying to portray Arjun as epitome of tank design, like any other machine it is a system, will have some plus and minus points associated with it. And please don't twist the argument, it is IA who wanted the comparison to be done.

And I said that earlier, Arjun can be rearmed with 120mm smoothbore gun, why nobody consider this in case of Mk2 variant? Maybe someone in IA should ask important question why and who is responsible for making Your own tank in many fields obsolete? But nobody do this, there is no constructive ciriticism, only bashing T-90 or other foreing stuff on one side, and prising tank, that have obsolete armament and badly designed turret on the other side as if it was some super tank.

Oh please, every one here is pointing towards a home made product being run in to a wild goose chase, whereas the foreign ones getting repeated orders even after lot of issues with them. You can not deny the facts. Regarding Smoothbore cannon, it will be interesting, but I don't think IA has asked for removal of rifled gun, please correct me if I am wrong here.

I completely understand problems like lack of proper funding, but I can't understand why nobody is making an anlize of foreing designs to avoid making the same mistakes as other dones... it is just reinventing the wheel again and again.

Sir, the point here is when a home made design is available, you stick with it and improve on it, I am not averse to collaboration, there are lot of things going on, sure a lot of them can be adopted. Imports, for the sake of it, is not the answer

 

[nitesh]

There is nothing for me to say here. The problem is you don't understand how things work which is compounded by the fact that you don't know which weapons do what.

And you are the sole reference point to be considered to know which weapon system do what? Good to see self petting

DRDO is a useless organization. 50 years and they haven't made anything worth mentioning. You are glorifying an organization that is the biggest drain on the military budget and also one of the biggest failures in our engineering history. Heck our highway department is more successful.

Stop BSing, rhetorical statements are not facts.

DRDO cannot deliver. Arjun is a waste of time considering we have the entire infrastructure and logistics chain for the T-90 already in existence. HESH is obsolete and is not a reason to keep Arjun around. Arjun may improve in future blocks like the Mk2 and perhaps even the Mk3. But it makes a whole lot of sense to go for a tank which IA is already accustomed to, and thus the reason why the FMBT is a much better option instead of going for Arjun.

If you really think cost is an issue on why we must not buy the Israeli round and go for Arjun instead, then you are completely wrong. The cost of importing shells is nothing compared to replacing our armoury with heavy tanks, especially a lemon.

What a classic argument, import a half baked T 90, enmasse, run to DRDo for issues with it, whereas DRDO doesn't cribs for it create a logistic chain for it, and then crib that Arjun is a waste of money. This T 90 farce is a classic case of ridiculing home grown products and justification for imports.

 

[nitesh]

pmaitra, I started the argument pointing towards the Israeli ammo, which can be adopted on T 90, which has similar capability to what HESH does, and pointing towards the irony that what Arjun has all the time to offer, we are going to import again for the sake of T 90.

 

[pmaitra]

pmaitra, I started the argument pointing towards the Israeli ammo, which can be adopted on T 90, which has similar capability to what HESH does, and pointing towards the irony that what Arjun has all the time to offer, we are going to import again for the sake of T 90.

Yes I get your point and I saw your argument, but I am not sure I see it that way, like we are importing for the 'sake' of T-90. No, my stand is clear, and the two salient points in my opinion are, (1) T-90 and Arjun complement each other, (2) HESH might not be as successful as claimed against concrete fortifications.

 

[nitesh]

Well every time any point is made against T 90, the fan boys are out in open peddling imports as the only way out, like bizarre argument of import from Israel as Russians are charging more. But let's run with T 90 only, as T 90 is the savior. How more ridiculous it can get.

The point of HESH being not as effective is to be taken with a load of salt, as we haven't seen IA complaining regards that till now (you can correct me if I am wrong here)