ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Compersion

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Confused with your query Kindly elaborate.....
thats the point ... is there confusion

if the GE F404 and GE F414 (the latter with TOT) is confirmed and secure for us to use for Tejas and Tejas MK2 respectively ... we have to be more confident and focus in our approach of injecting the Tejas beauties into the IAF

the emphasis on GE F414 per my earlier post
 
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Pulkit

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thats the point ... is there confusion

if the GE F404 and GE F414 (the latter with TOT) is confirmed and secure for us to use for Tejas and Tejas MK2 respectively ... we have to be more confident and focus in our approach of injecting the Tejas beauties into the IAF

the emphasis on GE F414 per my earlier post
I think you are a bit confused or you are not able to express your point here.

Sharing my undertanding of your point.

GE 414 is on track and a team from GE will be coming to fuse once Tejas MK2 is ready. IAF wants in by the end of 2017 but ADA DRDO HAL saying it will only be possible by the end of 2018.

TOT of the engine I am not sure about that , but production in India is possible only if IAF gives large orders.

We atleast need to place 150 Tejas Mk2 on order being produced on 2 assembly lines at app 15 per year production rate .
Once the order is complete in roughly 6-7 years Teja Mk2 improved must be ready for further orders.

In end we need to have 250+ Tejas .

by 2022 we will be retiring close to 200 Aircrafts and to replace now we have 36 Rafale(expecting no follow up orders)+ 60 (Su 30 MKI) still being manufactured + 40 Tejas mk1 on order + Remaining must be filled by tejas Mk2 .

Once this is complete probably by 2022 we will need to improve the squad count to 42-44 which will be another 100 aircrafts on order .
 

Compersion

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I think you are a bit confused or you are not able to express your point here.

Sharing my undertanding of your point.

GE 414 is on track and a team from GE will be coming to fuse once Tejas MK2 is ready. IAF wants in by the end of 2017 but ADA DRDO HAL saying it will only be possible by the end of 2018.

TOT of the engine I am not sure about that , but production in India is possible only if IAF gives large orders.

We atleast need to place 150 Tejas Mk2 on order being produced on 2 assembly lines at app 15 per year production rate .
Once the order is complete in roughly 6-7 years Teja Mk2 improved must be ready for further orders.

In end we need to have 250+ Tejas .

by 2022 we will be retiring close to 200 Aircrafts and to replace now we have 36 Rafale(expecting no follow up orders)+ 60 (Su 30 MKI) still being manufactured + 40 Tejas mk1 on order + Remaining must be filled by tejas Mk2 .

Once this is complete probably by 2022 we will need to improve the squad count to 42-44 which will be another 100 aircrafts on order .
Do you have a source for what you said especially the ADA DRDO HAL saying we will only get GE 414 at end of 2018 because we are not ready. I had read somewhere about delivery of GE 414 "later" but not because we were not ready.

I feel it is primarily the engine that is the reason for our shakiness in making confident announcement for Tejas especially Mk2. I do feel that i might be over-reacting ...

You yourself admit to confusion with TOT where i have stated a source that we would be getting TOT ... the engine we use for Tejas especially MK2 will have to be with TOT and with secure and well-defined parameters ... and i thought and believe it is with GE and GE 414 ... we had a tender process and GE won (but tender process has french influence suddenly). We will hear more about engine for our jets i feel and that is what needs focus ... please do remember we had sanctions after the buddha smiled (again) and the F404s were in stock at that time ... that is the emphasis on TOT
 

Pulkit

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Do you have a source for what you said especially the ADA DRDO HAL saying we will only get GE 414 at end of 2018 because we are not ready. I had read somewhere about delivery of GE 414 "later" but not because we were not ready.

I feel it is primarily the engine that is the reason for our shakiness in making confident announcement for Tejas especially Mk2. I do feel that i might be over-reacting ...

You yourself admit to confusion with TOT where i have stated a source that we would be getting TOT ... the engine we use for Tejas especially MK2 will have to be with TOT and with secure and well-defined parameters ... and i thought and believe it is with GE and GE 414 ... we had a tender process and GE won (but tender process has french influence suddenly). We will hear more about engine for our jets i feel and that is what needs focus ... please do remember we had sanctions after the buddha smiled (again) and the F404s were in stock at that time ... that is the emphasis on TOT
I was referring to an article
Focus Shifts to Tejas MK-2, Project all set to go Critical | idrw.org

First Flight:

While IAF wants first flight of Tejas MK-2 to take place by end of 2017, ADA can only do it by end of 2018 but both are working together to speed up the process and might agree to some level of compromise, since ADA is not building any Prototypes, but an IOC Standard Production aircraft Integration of all crucial components along with weapons and radar will lead to longer build time said sources. Tejas MK-1 and Tejas MK-2 will share less than 30 % of the components with each other and all agencies are working on selecting component suppliers



Engines

ADA along with GE have carried out Computer assessment of the F414-GE-INS6 engine with 98 kN of thrust in Tejas MK-2 aircraft and have concluded that no major changes in Air intakes are required. GE too has confirmed that the development of F414-GE-INS6 engines is progressing well and will be on schedule and GE engineers will be in India Into carry out mating of the engine with the aircraft when first aircraft is ready.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Ashton Carter to face Indian demand for engine technology

By Ajai Shukla

Business Standard, 1st June 15


Yet, the US technology control regime, which guards cutting-edge knowhow tightly, continues to treat jet engine technologies as sensitive and commercially valuable. Washington readily sold India the GE-404IN engine that powers the Tejas Mark I with 83 KiloNewtons (KN) of thrust. It also permitted the more advanced F-414 --- which will provide the Tejas Mark II with 90 KN of thrust --- to be built near Pune after GE won a contract for 99 engines in September 2010.

But India wants cutting-edge. Defence ministry sources say they want GE to partner the DRDO in upgrading the F-414 to deliver 110 KN of peak power to the AMCA, allowing its twin-engines to deliver 220 KN of peak power to the fighter.

Indian officials see advantage in dealing with GE through government-to-government channels, a more flexible and faster mechanism. There is also benefit in having GE as a single partner for Tejas Mark I, Mark II and AMCA engines, which GE keenly wants too. Even so, Indian officials say that US government foot-dragging might leave no choice but an international tender that brings in European companies like Snecma and Eurojet.

Carter played a leading role in establishing the DTTI when then Defence Secretary Leon Panetta proposed it in June 2012. He co-chaired the DTTI along with former National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon. The DTTI is now cho-chaired by Frank Kendall, an Under Secretary of Defence; and India’s defence secretary, G Mohan Kumar.

Source : http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/06/ashton-carter-to-face-indian-demand-for.html
 

saik

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Get that darn Kaveri 110kN out!.. fund that puppy more than enough, and it is important to establish whatever test setup required to be completed. We don't have to go to Russia or America. If Chinese can do it, India can too. GTRE needs a big shake up. boss, this is billionth time, anyone could have said about importance of Kaveri engine. Do we suck that much in turbine technology? IITs and IIScs must suck lot more than gov institutions then. After spending huge sums, we can't just drop Kaveri like that even w.o porting it to TD platform for flight data analysis.

I don't believe we can't do it! this is pure politics and/or lethargic /babu politics. or our old people needs to thrown away, and some young blood installed.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Either we start making license produced GE-414 or we make our own in time ..

Imho, Shutting down Kaveri was a blunder ..
 

Bheeshma

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Kalyani group is looking into manufacturing engines. I hope they succeed. I don't expect anything coming out of DTTI or any deal with US.
 

sathya

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May be it meant without super cruise capability ..

Tejas mk 1 went supersonic long time ago !

I think it achieved super sonic at sea level with a steep dive.
 

kumar2310s

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I believe India should encourage private sector to work on Engine technology. Who knows they can come up with a better engine. If Kalyani group wants to enter into Engine making, they should be encouraged.Government can provide them all the expertise that was gained during Kaveri development, if they need. Till a better engine is developed, india should be producing GE engines in india under TOT.
 

saik

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What ever said or done, HAL should never build a radar by itself. It is a waste of time. They rather focus on production engineering and research on concurrent engineering, robotics and tools to get the product out fast and at high quality (which is a ? still on them)
 

Punya Pratap

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First Tejas Mark II engine to arrive in September

Monday, July 06, 2015

By : Business Standard


The plan to develop a more powerful, modernised version of the current Tejas fighter is getting a welcome boost. In September, US engine-maker General Electric (GE) plans to deliver the first F-414INS6 engine (hereafter F-414), which will power the Tejas Mark II.


The plan to develop a more powerful, modernised version of the current Tejas fighter is getting a welcome boost. In September, US engine-maker General Electric (GE) plans to deliver the first F-414INS6 engine (hereafter F-414), which will power the Tejas Mark II.

The F-414 engine's maximum power output of 98 kiloNewtons (kN) will make the Tejas Mark II faster and nimbler than the current Mark I fighter, which gets just 84 kN of peak power from its GE F-404IN engine. The F-414 will also provide the burst of power needed for the Naval Tejas to take off from an aircraft carrier deck on 200 metres of runway.

In 2010, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which manages the Tejas programme, chose GE over Eurojet to supply 99 engines for the Tejas Mark II. Of these, 16 are being delivered fully-built, so that ADA can build prototypes of the Mark II fighter for ground and flight test programmes.

Meanwhile, Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will establish a facility to manufacture the remaining 83 engines in Bengaluru. With the Indian Air Force (IAF) and navy likely to order at least 160 Tejas Mark II fighters, the HAL facility could eventually build about 700 engines (assuming a fighter uses 3.5 engines in its service life).

For now, ADA is welcoming the arrival of the first F-414 engines. This will allow it to start building the first Mark II prototype, which it plans to fly within three years, that is, by 2018-19. ADA says it will hand over the first production fighter to the IAF within six years, that is, by 2021-22. HAL Bengaluru is building the first 20 Tejas Mark I fighters, which were contracted in 2007. In 2010, the IAF committed itself to another 20 Mark I fighters, which will be contracted when the Tejas gets final operational clearance, probably by March 2016. These 40 fighters will use the F-404 engine.

Not everyone believes the Tejas Mark II, powered by the F-414, is a good idea.

Aerospace experts like Pushpinder Singh of Vayu Magazine say the benefits of the more powerful F-414 would be negated by its additional weight and the re-design of the Tejas that they say will be needed to accommodate the engine.

Experts also argue the Tejas' constricted air intake will prevent the F-414 from sucking in the air it requires, even with extensive redesign. In that case, the engine would not deliver its rated 98 kN thrust.

Rejecting this view, GE and ADA officials say they will accommodate the F-414 without problem or extensive redesign, and that it will perform to its designed potential.

Their claim is supported by the engine data on the GE website (see graphic), which indicates the F-414 is no larger than the F-404. Nor is it significantly heavier, says ADA.

While GE has bagged the deal to supply India the F-414, an even bigger prize could prove elusive - the supply of a more powerful version of the F-414 for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a fifth-generation medium fighter that ADA plans to develop, with the IAF standing ready to buy 200.

As Business Standard reported (June 1, "Carter to face Indian demand for engine technology") the defence ministry has asked the United States to let the Defence Research and Development Organisation work with GE in jointly upgrading the F-414 to a rating of 110 KN of peak power. ADA believes the AMCA needs 220 kN of peak power from its twin engines.

This is welcomed by GE, which had earlier worked for the US Navy on upgrading the F-414 to a 116 kN engine designated F-414 enhanced engine.

With that project now shelved, GE would like to see it revived with Indian partnership, funding and a large assured market.

Yet, Washington is stonewalling the Indian request, even though the two countries had established a "joint working group" to explore cooperation in engine design during President Obama's visit to India in January.

A disappointed Indian defence ministry is now issuing a global tender, inviting aero engine firms to co-develop a suitable engine with the DRDO.

Senior defence ministry sources say that Eurojet, the European consortium whose EJ200 engine lost out to GE's F-414 in the contest to power the Tejas Mark II, has satisfied the DRDO it can uprate the EJ200 to 110 kN.

Snecma, the French company that builds the Rafale's M-88 engine, will also be issued a tender. However the M-88, which currently generates 75 kN of thrust, cannot be uprated beyond 105 kN.

"Fighters are designed around a pre-selected engine. We will issue the tender quickly and select an engine for the AMCA so that the programme does not get delayed. If Washington chooses to deny India engine technology by preventing GE from working with the DRDO, that will have its own implications," a top defence ministry official says.
 

Punya Pratap

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The important points in the article are as under:

1) The first IN 414 will start getting delivered to India by Sept '15 as per GE and how the ball is in ADA/HAL's court

2) GE/ADA both have issued statements saying that the size of 414 is similar to the 404 ... So junk the claims by eggsperts who say that Tejas Mk 2 will require restructuring.

3) GE/ADA have both shown confidence that 414 peak performance will be delivered with slight/minimum resizing of the intakes!

4) I have added Honourable Mr Pushpinder Singh of Vayu Mag in the Hall of Fame of EGGSPERTS!! Hooray!!

5) I would love to see Tejas Mk 2 in full battle configuration being delivered by 2020 for squadron service.

6) I would also like to see Private production line to speed up the deliveries of Mk 2 so that the Squadron strength reaches the required 42 Squds no.

7) I would like to see a comprehensive R&D, Production and MRO strategy which demarcates the roles accordingly with ADA/DRDO sharing R&D with inputs from IAF & HAL. Production should involve higher Pvt Sector LRU's etc and HAL should be LEAD INTEGRATOR with focus on dissemination of work share to Licensed Private Sector Defence Firms!! MRO's should also be handed over to Pvt Sector + BRD Joint undertakings!
 

Compersion

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Seriously i have been thinking about the F-414INS6 engine - is it to come with FULL TOT ??

Sure license build but with FULL TOT that will enable industry absorbtion and wont it be better to see if that is properly done and absorb into the system properly and in large numbers and have GE actualize and strengthen its view from India.

FULL TOT (sure in large(st) number was the critical term in the tender i would have thought.
 

manindra

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Seriously i have been thinking about the F-414INS6 engine - is it to come with FULL TOT ??

Sure license build but with FULL TOT that will enable industry absorbtion and wont it be better to see if that is properly done and absorb into the system properly and in large numbers and have GE actualize and strengthen its view from India.

FULL TOT (sure in large(st) number was the critical term in the tender i would have thought.
Full ToT is farce even with our production of AL-31 Saturn engine of Su-30 MKI (we manufacture only nearly 80 % of English locally and rest 20% most critical parts come from Russia.
It's a only method of gaining know how for new players.
In F-414 license production wr would not gain any new technology which we already not have (infact more thanks to Kaveri program) it's purely economically and only produce 70% maximum ( I am taking Swedish Volvo as account) of engine part.
 

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