China - vagrant children found dead in trash bin

Discussion in 'China' started by Ray, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    5 vagrant children found dead in trash bin

    Local authorities confirmed that five vagrant children were found dead in a trash bin in Southwest China's Guizhou province on Friday morning.

    The investigation into their deaths is ongoing, and the children have not been identified. The government attaches great importance to the case, Xie Di, a publicity official from the city government of Bijie, said on Sunday.

    Li Yuanlong, a netizen at club.kdnet.net, a popular online forum, wrote on Friday night that the children climbed inside a trash bin to stay warm on Bijie city's Huandong Road and suffocated.

    The trash bin is about 1.5 meters high and 1.3 meters wide, according to photos that Li posted on Saturday.

    An elderly woman who picks up trash found the victims, who were around the age of 10, in the trash bin, Beijing News reported. Police have ruled out foul play, the report quoted an anonymous publicity official as saying.

    The report said the temperature reached a low of 6 C on Thursday night.

    The children had been living near the trash bin in a shelter they built using plastic tarpaulin, cement blocks and plywood, Li quoted residents who lived nearby as saying.

    Ma Li, director of a rescue center for homeless children in Xuzhou, Jiangsu province, said the children may have eaten food they found in the trash bin and died from food poisoning.

    Li said the tragedy exposed an unresolved dilemma in the government's rescue work for vagrant children.

    "Rescue centers don't have a long-term effective way to help these children as they can only provide food and shelter for a maximum of 10 days. After that, the rescue centers are required to send these children home," he said.

    Most vagrant children don't want to go home as they have bad relationships with their parents and may be victims of domestic violence, he said.

    "For this reason, many children shy away from rescue centers and feel reluctant to seek help," he said.

    The civil affairs department and rescue centers hand out blankets and padded coats during the winter to the homeless, but more needs to be done, he said.

    The government should work out a new mechanism that encourages NGOs, schools and individuals to participate in helping vagrants, he urged.

    5 vagrant children found dead in trash bin |Society |chinadaily.com.cn

    *********************************

    This report debunks the tall claims of the Chinese posters that there are no beggars, homeless, vagrants, the hungry and such like issues that they keep raising about India whenever they are in a tight spot and require to obfuscate and deflect.

    This reports show that there are vagrant and homeless people and in this case children

    It also indicates that they were hungry and were scavenging from the trash bin and it was cold as so they used the trash bin as a shelter.

    That apart. the whole incident is most tragic, unfortunate and saddening.

    Poor children to die because of cold and hunger anywhere in the world is most tragic.
     
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  3. rockdog

    rockdog Regular Member

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    1. It's a tragedy.

    2. I don't think any one would deny there are "beggars, homeless, vagrants" in China, even US and EU can't do this.
    The government last year just release the order that, if found any Child are homeless and begging on the street, need to call the police and social relief office asap.

    3. according to latest investigation (¹óÖÝ5ÃûÃÆËÀÄÐͯ4ÈËê¡Ñ§³£Àë¼ÒÊýÈÕ²»¹é(Ãûµ¥)|¹óÖÝ|5ÃûÄк¢ËÀÍö|À¬»øÏä_ÐÂÀËÐÂÎÅ),
    those five kids are from the same big family, and there are "Children drain from school", or scape from school.
    It's obviously mis-parenting, since their parents are migrant workers, and divorced.

    And this is the top news for today's internet, TV and news page, which mean it a uncommon accident.

    4. Today, 8 officers from this county who responsible for eduction, school head, social relief, are sacked.
    I appreciate such quick reaction, i was wondering if the same thing happen in India, can government sack officers such easily? Or need a democratic process?

    5. Guizhou Province, is the the poorest province in China (the bottom of the ranking). It's per GDP is lower than Tibet and Qinghai, just $USD2800/Per Capital
    (http://guizhou.bbs.house.sina.com.cn/thread-10597535-1.html), and on some human development index, it's as low as India's.
    So the Children might didn't get enough good education.

    6. Ray, thanks again for your attention to China's children situation. I think from a nation with only 70% literacy and 40% of its Children suffering on malnutrition which is the top1 in the ranking, you must understand well how urgently we human being need to change this situation. I hope India would do it little better after 1947.
     
  4. rockdog

    rockdog Regular Member

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    Double post
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  5. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    You find the issue uncomfortable for the spic and span image of China that you all project?

    Poor province or rich, it is China, right?

    I found it amusing that you feel that because they are from a poor province, there would be no education worth its name! So, what was the huge propaganda you chap were doing in the thread on Chinese education sometime back?

    China gave the order that vagrant children should be reported. Great. Then how come these children were not reported. Given orders means job done and responsibility over, right? That is what is done in China?

    What does it matter if the children are from one big family? Something villianish to be from 'one big family'?

    Migrant parents divorced? So? Does it mean that migrants are not humans in the manner you use the word as if it were a taboo!

    Divorced? So? That absolves the gravity of the issue? Funny logic.

    Top news in China does not mean that it does not happen. Ponty and Monty Chaddha are the top news in India and they are liquor barons. So is Vijay Mallya and Khoday. So?

    8 people sacked? Nothing surprising. In China all one requires is scapegoats and the Govt washes off all its responsibility. Wow!

    Now that Mao is dead, he is the scapegoat for China's ill. 30% wrong when he was 100% right when he was alive!

    India has its problems, but we don't shout from the rooftops while at the same time hide the faults and when discovered gloss over it as you are doing!
     
  6. rockdog

    rockdog Regular Member

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    Sorry i might didn't express rightly, let me present the logic here:
    1. It's from a Poor province, lots of parents went out as migrant workers.
    2. those "Liushou Children" are not received good social care and education because of the poverty, it's the environmental factor of this tragedy.
    3. Those 5 kids are from a big family, but not from the same parents (as far as the news, they are from 5 families), some of them are migrant workers, some of them are from single family, because of divorce.
    5. According to the news, they scaped from school, not homeless.
    4. 8 officers got sacked, it's obviously that the government willing to punish the mis-management, and willing to avoid same thing happens again.

    I just wanted you to know the whole aspect of the case, before your comment it.


    By your logic, if the government dosen't sack them, you would have another way of shitting: the government are so cold-blooded, and don't care about its people
    So what should we do would make you happy?


    It's little boring you draw every topic into Mao or Communism, even Chinese don't blame this to Mao, it's just the mis-management on current government, and both government and civil trying to improve this problem based on this understanding.

    And even the Party's newspage today criticize this case. (Àîãü±ù£ºº¢×ÓʧÖú¿½ÎÊÉç»áµ×Ïß_ÐÂÀËÐÂÎÅ)
    "30% wrong when he was 100% right when he was alive!!"?


    I really don't know how to hide those faults and discovered gloss, if 40% of your children don't get enough food, and 30% of your people don't have education.
    It's not you don't cover the things, it's you can't cover...

    if you only got 60 scores in your exam, and you are shitting someone got 80 scores, this is quite laughable mindset, It's my logic, maybe i am wrong in urs.
     
  7. rockdog

    rockdog Regular Member

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    Sorry i might didn't express rightly, let me present the logic here:
    1. It's from a Poor province, lots of parents went out as migrant workers.
    2. those "Liushou Children" are not received good social care and education because of the poverty, it's the environmental factor of this tragedy.
    3. Those 5 kids are from a big family, but not from the same parents (as far as the news, they are from 5 families), some of them are migrant workers, some of them are from single family, because of divorce.
    5. According to the news, they scaped from school, not homeless.
    4. 8 officers got sacked, it's obviously that the government willing to punish the mis-management, and willing to avoid same thing happens again.

    I just wanted you to know the whole aspect of the case, before your comment it.


    By your logic, if the government dosen't sack them, you would have another way of shitting: the government are so cold-blooded, and don't care about its people

    So what should we do would make you happy? Or we need to care whether u r happy?


    It's little boring you draw every topic into Mao or Communism, even Chinese don't blame this to Mao, it's just the mis-management on current government, and both government and civil trying to improve this problem based on this understanding.

    And even the Party's newspage today criticize this case. (�������ʧ����������_��������)
    "30% wrong when he was 100% right when he was alive!!"? ah?


    I really don't know how to hide those faults and discovered gloss, if 40% of your children don't get enough food, and 30% of your people don't have education.
    It's not you don't cover the things, it's you can't cover...

    if you only got 60 scores in your exam, and you are shitting someone got 80 scores, this is quite laughable mindset, It's my logic, maybe i am wrong in urs.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  8. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    I appreciate that you gave the background from the perspective of China.

    Notwithstanding:

    1. Migrant workers are from all over China, poor or not so poor. It does not make any difference since migrant workers are very hard pressed in all cities or areas they go to work. Enough has been written about them in this forum.

    2. It is the Hukou system of the Chinese Govt that is responsible for this most unfortunate tragedy and not the 8 people sacked as scapegoats. If there was no Hukou system, then the family of the migrant worker would have got all the facilities of the people of the city or town who have the Hukou permit. Because of the Hukou system, the migrant, especially the poor who have no land and working hands at home from where they come from, they have to bring their folks along who are then denied the benefits that the Hukou system gives those who are 'legal' citizens of the place.

    3. That they have a big family proves that they are not Han and so who cares in a Han area to be bothered about reporting the unfortunate state of the non Han population, who as it is by coming to the Han area are overburdening that town or city and bring it a bad name.

    It is not my logic.

    The logic is that of the Chinese people and the Communist Chinese Govt.

    It is called Hukou system!

    If the Chinese Govt removes the Hukou or allow the Hukou to be modified, then such incidents will not happen.

    Now, don't go trotting out the Chinese propaganda that the Govt is thinking of changing the Hukou system. They have been debating it for a long time and have done fanny adams so far.


    It is not for me to be happy. It is for you to be happy and your Govt is doing fanny adams about it as I have explained. Only capable of a whole lot of gobgas.


    I know that truth is boring to the Chinese fed on the spectacular by the Chinese propaganda machine.

    I do bring in the Communist aspect and there is no denying of that. It is merely to indicate the hypocrisy and double talk that China festers on and gloats as if it were Mother Teresa performing miracles.

    Ah yes, the Chinese Govt is always improving.




    Let us play ping pong.

    I return the answer with your answer - the Indian Govt is improving.

    The other issue is that if China is doing better than India or even the world, does it mean that one should turn a blind eye to the mishappenings in China.

    Astounding logic!

    The last point is that while you all feel that in India China is the mystic Orient and one does not know about China, the advise is - think again.
     
  9. rockdog

    rockdog Regular Member

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    I think you are quite ill-informed now. The Hukou system is not that important in modern Chinese society now, maybe the"Hukou" phrase on Wikipedia didn't get updated for long. ^_^

    Just like i would give you a long article talking about how's caste system still damaging your society, but i m afraid that i would not see the whole picture of your changing social environment.

    In my city, there are also migrant workers with their children living in the town, and those migrant worker even got subsides when they go to the community school. And they would get FREE Vaccine from community medical office (i have 4 yrs old son, and i talked with this kind of family when my son got injection).

    All above, not one asking the Hukou record!!

    That's why i just felt your info is quite old outdated: people don't bring their children into city, because of many reasons: lack of education of the last generation, made they can't have a stable working place, need to shift to lots of cities, then the children can't receive continuous education, and if there are grandparents at hometown, it's rather than just keep them at home.

    That's why i totally disagree with your conclusion, it's nothing to do with Hukou system, it's just cause of poverty and government's mis-management.

    BTW, if we compare the same thing to India, as far as i knew, your cities got huge slums and even been famous by some Hollywood movie!

    Yes they are free, there are no cold bloodied hukou system, but do they have enough education or even enough food? And how about the bad name brought into your biggest business hub like Bombay?



    As i said before, you have a habit bring the Racial, Ideology into all the discussion, i m again feel bored about this.
    The victims this time, from the name i would guess they are Han.

    Plus, do you know what race has highest rate of high education (university level)? It's Korean Race! Not even HAN!


    Well, you are not the only one have such simple thinking for analyzing things.

    Just like lots of Chinese just blame India's failure all just because of Indian style democracy and remains of Caste system, i think it's unfair too.


    I explained it from my first feedback, it's nothing to do with Hukou, you are using your outdated knowledge about Hukou into the wrong place topic.

    Let me explain the logic again:
    a. economic development imbalance created population migration
    b. population migration created lots of social problems, because of poverty and mis-management
    c. this tragedy is one of many such tragedies because of those social problems

    I just had a thinking: if poverty in China already created some many tragedies, how much more would caused by a even much poorer India?



    I don't think for this case, "propaganda machine" made any effort, on contrast the government did lots of fixings, and the commentator from Party's news page still shit a lot to the local government.

    But if you insist your way, be my guest.




    The problem is, it's not China forcing your to turn a blind eye, but you are using selective blind attitude to view China.
    When you view China's problem, you never compare the severity with the same problem from India.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
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  10. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    I don't require the Wikipedia for knowing what is the Hokou or the Danwei system.

    Hukou system is still in vogue and that is why China is debating for modification to the same.

    Hukou is important in modern China too. As per the Chinese ministry of education the Govt is considering a feasibility plan where students graduating high school without a Beijing Hukou (residential permit) could be able to take the college entrance examination in the city in future.

    So, keep your bedtime stories to yourself.

    In so far as the caste system is concerned, there are laws, yes, laws against treating anyone with caste taboos. While in the case of China, they are only studying issues and not implementing.

    Personal anecdotes do not make it a fact.

    Fact is what is backed up by links or is universally known and accepted.

    Vaccine may have been administered because of a national scheme. We have such a scheme for Polio Eradication and it is given to all young children FREE.



    There are many reasons why migrant workers don't bring their families when they move to work in other parts of the country. It is not merely because of education. It is because there is very rudimentary living spaces i.e. dormitory that are cramped up and the cost of living. And without Hukou permit the children would not be admitted in the schools as was possibly the case with these poor children who died.

    If it were not the Hukou, why is the Govt trying to modify the Hukou system?

    And how does that relate to the issue of the Chinese children who had become vagrants and ate the remains in the trash can and died because they were trying to beat the cold?

    Do you meander into the irrelevant
    .
    Hukou is not a cold blooded system.

    Who said that?

    Yes, it has infirmities, but in a regulated country as China that emphasises stability and harmony over individual rights, the hukou plays a stellar role.

    Indeed, there is education and food too in India.

    Heard of NREGA?

    Further, to be educated or not to be educated is the freedom of choice of the individual. This is not China where one can get frogmarched to a Laogai just because he or she got out from the wrong side of the bed.

    The facilities for free education up to a certain level is there for anyone to take advantage of.


    In a discussion, when one is with his knicker twisted and in a bind, one clutches at straws like the sinking man.

    Racial?

    If you are bored, it is your problem. I am not a shaman to undertake a long distance cure for you.

    How does that matter?

    Why must you bring everything into a competitive equation to meander into the irrelevant.

    Has it any bearing with the children who died or the cause thereof?

    By your style of discussion, the US has had the maximum number of Nobel Prize winners. And yet, they also had Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber! ;)

    In India, unlike you all in China we don't have the fetish to be Mohammed Ali (I am the Greatest).

    We are aware of our weaknesses and we continually strive to improve.

    It really does not matter what the China Chinese feel about India. Unlike you all, in India we take the views of all (including foreigners since they have a perspective that is not insular to India and we have to interact with them globally) apply the views as suited to Indian societal matrix and then steam ahead.

    Hukou is responsible for the deaths of these vagrant children

    Migrant workers often remain second-class citizens in cities due to their non-local hukou status. Such inferiority manifests itself in forms of discrimination in job markets and deprivation of social benefits and public services. And migrant children often miss out on education opportunities because hukou is inherited.

    I have not said this, it is reported in the East Asia Forum that deals with Economics, Politics and Public Policy in East Asia and the Pacific.

    There home page is at http://www.eastasiaforum.org/ .

    You sure love to dabble in the irrelevant and go tangentially off topic to suit some flights of fantasy of your.

    What has the tragedy in China to do with economics?

    What has the tragedy in China to do with what will happen in India just because it has happened in China?

    A very daft approach and logic.

    You are out of step with what the international opinion is.

    I am a member of the Management out here.

    So, YOU can be our guest.

    Enjoy!


    I have no problem.

    When I discuss issues of China, I am China centric.

    When I discuss issues of India, I am Indian centric.

    I am not daft to compare China or the US or even Fiji when I discuss issues of another country since the environments are totally different to each other.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  11. rockdog

    rockdog Regular Member

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    Yes, i agree with you, the single case can't present the whole picture, just like India's shameful literacy and malnutrition rate.
    Yes, there might be not a case reported on news page, but let's again to remember the gap between China and India:
    Child malnutrition in India a national shame - Manmohan Singh | Reuters

    40% of India children is under malnutrition, which is the top1 in the world

    Care to elaborate how GOI execute such great plan, and receive such record as following?

    Jairam Ramesh, who was at the time the minister responsible for sanitation, explained that between 400,000 and 500,000 Indian children under five die each year from diarrhoea, the largely preventable result of poor hygiene.

    The road ahead - FT.com
     
  12. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    One has to understand what malnutrition means and now it is caused.

    It is also caused by poor diet selection.

    Amongst the poor, they feel that if you 'fill your stomach', it means that one has had a full meal.

    And they primarily 'fill' it with rice.

    That is not so. It does give a feeling that one has eaten but from the nutrition point of view, it is a poor fare.

    Rice is a nutritional staple food which provides instant energy as its most important component is carbohydrate (starch). On the other hand, rice is poor in nitrogenous substances with average composition of these substances being only 8% and fat content or lipids only negligible, i.e., 1% and due to this reason it is considered as a complete food for eating.

    Cooking procedures can reduce the richness of vitamins and minerals in rice, and in fact, cooking is usually done with water which is then neglected and much of these nutrients dissolve in water and get wasted.

    It is supplemented with vegetables and lentil, the majority being vegetarians.

    Compare that with China.

    In China, a person can eat anything one desires be it animal meat, insects, sea foods to including sea cucumbers (high on proteins) and so on. Therefore, there is a wide variety of nutrients that one can choose from.

    Therefore, the comparison with China is similar to chalk and cheese.

    It may also be noted that Intake of indigestive and harmful diet is one of the main causes of malnutrition. Children belonging to the rich families do have expensive food items but in general these food items are indigestive and harmful. Intake of such type of food items often leads to lack of hunger and hence sometimes the children fall prey to malnutrition.

    Irregular intake of food is one of the main causes leading to malnutrition. The timings for breakfast, lunch and dinner must more or less be fixed. Indiscipline in this matter is very bad. This bad habit of taking irregular meals causes indigestion and finally results in malnutrition.

    Lack of sleep results in indigestion, which leads to malnutrition. Lack of proper and sufficient rest also leads to malnutrition.

    The digestive process of children gets affected because of continuous hard work. Especially for the children of low income- groups, the heavy labour uncoupled with balanced diet take a toll on their physical and mental development. Nearly forty percent of total children in India suffer from malnutrition.

    Therefore, it is the ill educated or unlettered who are enamoured by statistics, sensational the better!

    In so far as sanitary conditions in India, India has a free media and it also allows foreign correspondents free access to all parts of India and so what is wrong is internationally known.

    I have appended the state of poor sanitation in China from the little that have been available in open sources.

    I daresay China has much to gloat about.

    In so far as polio is concerned, it is sad that your country leaves you all ill informed of what is happening around the world and instead conditions your mind with glee about the 'stupendous' result achieved by the Communist Govt.

     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012

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