Who is the most Evil individual from the 20th century ?

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

And which one of those which made our lives better?

The steam engine!

 

[Mad Indian]

Please read more on the history of India. I find your statements quite disturbing. Though I don't blame all of current ills on Brits I sure do pose this question to you , on what basis did Britain end up with so much wealth that they could afford the zenith of socialism fOr over 60 years.

That's because Britain used to be a capitalist country. NOw socialism prevails. Doctors, dentists, lawyers, businessmen are looked down upon as they earn a lot for the skills they have. Otoh footballers and celebrities who have no brains can earn as much as they wish. You work hard and make a million you are infinitesimally worse than who earns a million by winning a lottery: sad but true.

Two hundred likes for both posts sir. Let the Socialistic idiots here come to their senses after reading these two posts.

My only wish is that India does not go down in to the drain like the Europe did with its socialism. May wisdom prevail here.

 

[panduranghari]

And East India Company had no relation with the crown till 1857, it was just another company paying dividends like many others in UK at that time. .

An interesting anecdote if you are interested;

The CITY of London is the square mile within the greater London area. Here we have the banks of the world trading astronomical amount of currency. This is the birth place of the East India Company.

The CITY as its called is the only area in the whole of UK which is out of the control of British Parliament. The laws of UK do not apply in this 1 square mile zone. They have their own mayor called Lord Mayor. He is a multi billionaire. you got to be one because the development of this square mile depends on your own wealth. The people who vote for this election are the businesses within the square mile and not the few 100 people who live there. These businesses are mostly banks now but in the past it was companies like British East India Company, the various ships who undertook slave labour from Africa to the US. eVEN the Dutch East India Company was based in The City.

Wait there is more.

The City has an enforcer who sits in the parliament just behind next to the speaker. He is nominated by the City to act as someone who will not allow things done in the Parliament which would compromise the city. So much so that Vince Cable who is the current MP and also in the govt as a business incharge, wanted to prevent the UK government from permitting the banks like Lehman Bros to do shady financial deals in UK. The wall street people had already declined Goldman Sachs et al permission to do the things that they did which brought the system to its knees in 2008. However, in the CITY they were allowed to fcuk the world just like they have always done. The queen also does not control this place. She has to request an annual permission to meet the Lord Mayor. And she has to come out of Windsor or Buckingham Palace and meet the Lord Mayor at the border of the City and greater London authority area. The lord Mayor has such power.

Its this CITY who screwed India.

I am not making any of this sh*t up. Google it my friend.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Err... Japan also had a caste system with 4 divisions and untouchables Burakumin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Unlike the Chinese, Japan's system wasn't meritocratic.

Four divisions does not make them similar baba. Nepal has a much closer or same caste system as India.

Wealth is a vague term, "currency" has to be either backed by oil/gold/silver/military power. Brits stole a lot of gold and silver

Oil---That made me laugh. Find out the reasons why people used gold/silver as backup for currency.

There is no reason to back currency by gold. When the amount of services that could be backed by gold/silver increases it better to move off the gold standard. Ron Paul fed journalists keep claiming it as opium. It is all a matter of beliefs, if you can think that Gold can store value, any other item(bank notes) can also serve that purpose. I will have to start another thread to explain people that there is no reason to raise hue and cry over fiat money.

 

[Mad Indian]

I did not lectured on how well or pathetically nation states thrive. I meant the concept of one political India that we see today has as much British contribution as the rise of nationalism under British rule..

India as a political identity was never there to begin with before Britain came here. It was more of a cultural and geographical term than an actual political one. We would have been nothing more than a few hundred princely states, if not for the British

British set up as many schools as they needed to run the country. I am not defending them, but our caste system was much worse and inward looking on the educational front. Literacy in India had always been bad historically due to sanskritisation of education. So no point just blaming the British..

Exactly. The upper castes had made sure that the caste system is as rigid as it can be , and if not for the British, we still would probably be the same. I would not be typing here in the first place.

But hey, i know what many in DFI here will do, they will come up with the examples of Valmiki ,Vyasa and Shivaji to claim that no such thing existed in India

Everyone knows that it is difficult to build counterfactuals. But to put things in perspective, we had 25% of world's GDP but it would have declined in any case(British or no British). Industrialization happened in Britain and not in India. The artisan and handicraft industry had no space in a modern world. . To put things in perspective, look at the literacy or industrialization rate of Nepal or other kingdoms during British India and you will know they did no better than the regions under British rule.

This is where you are wrong. So what makes you think Industrialisation would not have come to India if not for Britain? If not for the British, Industrialisation would have started in India, may be two to three decades after it started in Europe. But even that two to three decades will be way better than the present system of industrialisation which started only after 1947.
Please remember that the Britain was not an industrialised country before Industrialisation- hope you catch my point.

And our GDP as a % percentage of world GDP continued to declined further till 1990, not because British left us exploited but because we had flawed economic policies for 40 years

Blame that pig Nehru for that. And thanks to our moronic intellectuals who think socialism is the way to go, I think we might end up ----ing ourselves again, though i wish it does not happen.

 

[panduranghari]

Four divisions does not make them similar baba. Nepal has a much closer or same caste system as India.



Oil---That made me laugh. Find out the reasons why people used gold/silver as backup for currency.

There is no reason to back currency by gold. When the amount of services that could be backed by gold/silver increases it better to move off the gold standard. Ron Paul fed journalists keep claiming it as opium. It is all a matter of beliefs, if you can think that Gold can store value, any other item(bank notes) can also serve that purpose. I will have to start another thread to explain people that there is no reason to raise hue and cry over fiat money.

Why did OIL make you laugh? OIL controls every aspect of our life. From the car we drive to the keyboard we are warring over. The only thing that oil can hide is in GOLD.

When the once highly secretive London Bullion Market Association (LBMA) -- its venerable membership comprising the world's largest gold dealers -- published its daily clearing volume for the first time in January 1997, it rocked the tight-knit world of international gold traders and analysts.

According to this first of many subsequent LBMA press releases, thirteen hundred tonnes of gold (representing more than 50% of the world's annual mine production) changed hands daily in this fog-shrouded center of the global gold market. This figure represented over $10 billion per day and $4 trillion per year in bullion banking activity!

The gold market had always stood in austere, quiet contrast to the highly charged, mega-volume world of stocks and bonds. Now this first LBMA report forced analysts, investors, and brokers to reassess their understandings of the gold market. While some revelled in the glow of the large LBMA numbers, others began to raise some very important and rather unsettling questions. First, Why was this much gold on the move? Second, Where was all this gold going? And third, Where was all this gold coming from?

Then, in October of 1997 at the internet's only gold discussion forum of the day (hosted by Kitco), a series of remarkable postings began appearing under the pseudonym "ANOTHER", offering plausible answers to those questions. What followed in a seemingly incongruous stream of thought over many months was, in the fullness of time, seen to blend into a logical whole by many astute readers following the complete text. If you are not similarly moved to at least reassess your own view of the international financial scene after reading what's revealed below, then you are either firmly entrenched in your world view, or you've been numbed by too many hours of Wall Street's cheerleader (CNBC) and too many Friday nights with Louis Ruykeyser.

What matters most to us here at USAGOLD is ANOTHER's educational value to all who would take the time to read and think through his (at times) arcane and cryptic commentary of international economic dealings behind-the-scenes. ANOTHER demonstrates a feel for and understanding of the gold and oil markets that indicates connections at the highest echelons of international finance, yet for reasons having to do with his "position," as he has indicated, he wishes to remain anonymous. If his "THOUGHTS!" are theory; they are good theory. If they are speculation; they are reasonable speculation. If they are supposition; they are well-grounded supposition.

In the final analysis, ANOTHER offers one of the more plausible hypotheses for why the financial markets have acted as they have in the past few years, and therein lies his immense value to the reader, no matter who he is. Again, knowledge as is conveyed in his series of "THOUGHTS!" is rarely to be found outside the highest levels of international finance, and is seldom to be seen bandied about on the front pages of The Wall Street Journal or your favorite financial newsletter.

As explained by ANOTHER, an opportunistic arrangement for massive physical gold acquisition among important petroleum producing and exporting nations could be comfortably facilitated within these astronomical trading volumes now being publicly revealed via the LBMA. For the oil states this meant receiving real money (as opposed to government-sponsored paper) in payment for their depleting oil reserves. For the industrialized countries, this meant a continuing supply of cheap oil to fuel the economic boom already in progress. These transactions were to be cleared through the bustling London gold market. Up until late 1996, the volumes were a tightly kept secret so "the deal" proceeded without the knowledge of the general public.

When the LBMA went public with its figures, it raised the shroud off "the deal." But by then, according to ANOTHER, it no longer mattered. The oil states had already (almost inadvertently) cornered the gold market. As implied by ANOTHER's own words, his motivation for these postings was the discovery by "big traders" in the Far East of this opportune facility to buy gold at ever lower prices. Their subsequent heavy purchases of physical gold upset the delicate balance. Now there was no longer a reason to keep it secret, and hence, the revelation of this extraordinary tale.

His choice to use an Internet forum to tell his story is surely a "story" in itself. Many who have read ANOTHER's "THOUGHTS!" speculate why he would choose this particular venue for his revelations. Why not a magazine article? Or a book? Rather than turning this Foreword into a treatise on the merits of the Internet, let it suffice to say that if ANOTHER and his motives are as implied, then there is probably no better venue than the Internet; allowing his "THOUGHTS!" to be disseminated rapidly, anonymously, and without editing by intermediaries. In addition, they could be efficiently targeted to go directly to the core market audience -- the gold analysts, brokers and investors who frequent such Internet sites as this, devoted strictly to the yellow metal. And after all, as a utility, isn't this capacity for specialization and instant communication what the Internet is all about?

We encourage you to find time to read and consider these remarkable postings of ANOTHER with an open mind. In the field of gold and international economics, these posts are sure to remain as fascinating and worthy of careful study as anything you will find on the web today.

A note on the text: No attempt has been made to correct typographical errors, misspellings, punctuation, grammatical and/or textual errors as originally submitted. This archive of ANOTHER's online commentary is presented here in its unedited entirety in the order his "THOUGHTS!" were posted via the Internet -- beginning at the Kitco website (from October 1997 to April 1998) then proudly hosted here at our expanded USAGOLD website (from May 1998 onward) through mutual agreement and cooperation with ANOTHER.


Date: Sun Oct 05 1997 21:29
ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253:

Everyone knows where we have been. Let's see where we are going!

It was once said that "gold and oil can never flow in the same direction". If the current price of oil doesn't change soon we will no doubt run out of gold.

This line of thinking is very real in the world today but it is never discussed openly. You see oil flow is the key to gold flow. It is the movement of gold in the hidden background that has kept oil at these low prices. Not military might, not a strong US dollar, not political pressure, no it was real gold. In very large amounts. Oil is the only commodity in the world that was large enough forgold to hide in. Noone could make the South African / Asian connection when the question was asked, "how could LBMA do so many gold deals and not impact the price". That's because oil is being partially used to pay for gold! We are going to find out that the price of gold, in terms of real money ( oil ) has gone thru the roof over these last few years. People wondered how the physical gold market could be "cornered" when it's currency price wasn't rising and no shortages were showing up? The CBs were becoming the primary suppliers by replacing openly held gold with CB certificates. This action has helped keep gold flowing during a time that trading would have locked up.

(Gold has always been funny in that way. So many people worldwide think of it as money, it tends to dry up as the price rises.) Westerners should not be too upset with the CBs actions, they are buying you time!

So why has this played out this way? In the real world some people know that gold is real wealth no matter what currency price is put on it. Around the world it is traded in huge volumes that never show up on bank statements, govt. stats., or trading graph paper.

The Western governments needed to keep the price of gold down so it could flow where they needed it to flow. The key to free up gold was simple. The Western public will not hold an asset that going nowhere, at least in currency terms. ( if one can only see value in paper currency terms then one cannot see value at all ) The problem for the CBs was that the third world has kept the gold market "bought up" by working thru South Africa! To avoid a spiking oil price the CBs first freed up the publics gold thru the issuance of various types of "paper future gold". As that selling dried up they did the only thing they could, become primary suppliers! And here we are today. In the early 1990s oil went to $30++ for reasons we all know. What isn't known is that it's price didn't drop that much. You see the trading medium changed. Oil went from $30++ to $19 + X amount of gold! Today it costs $19 + XXX amount of gold! Yes, gold has gone up and oil has stayed the same in most eyes.

Now all govts. don't get gold for oil, just a few. That's all it takes. For now! When everyone that has exchanged gold for paper finds out it's real price, in oil terms they will try to get it back. The great scramble that "Big Trader" understood may be very, very close.

Now my friends you know where we are at and with a little thought , where we are going.

 

[Mad Indian]

And which one of those which made our lives better?

Introduction of western system of education against the previous bastardised version found in India, in which the higher castes are the only ones allowed to even have education in the first place?

I mean seriously? Is it not some thing to even consider?

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

The CITY of London is the square mile within the greater London area. Here we have the banks of the world trading astronomical amount of currency. This is the birth place of the East India Company.

The CITY as its called is the only area in the whole of UK which is out of the control of British Parliament. The laws of UK do not apply in this 1 square mile zone. They have their own mayor called Lord Mayor. He is a multi billionaire. you got to be one because the development of this square mile depends on your own wealth. The people who vote for this election are the businesses within the square mile and not the few 100 people who live there. These businesses are mostly banks now but in the past it was companies like British East India Company, the various ships who undertook slave labour from Africa to the US. eVEN the Dutch East India Company was based in The City.

Yeah, it is interesting. But laws of UK do not apply in this region is looks vague from what I googled. The regions can definitely have sovereignty over certain things. It would be nice if you could provide better insights. From what I understand it looks more like a business organization with its own set of rules.

The City has an enforcer who sits in the parliament just behind next to the speaker. He is nominated by the City to act as someone who will not allow things done in the Parliament which would compromise the city. So much so that Vince Cable who is the current MP and also in the govt as a business incharge, wanted to prevent the UK government from permitting the banks like Lehman Bros to do shady financial deals in UK. The wall street people had already declined Goldman Sachs et al permission to do the things that they did which brought the system to its knees in 2008. However, in the CITY they were allowed to fcuk the world just like they have always done. The queen also does not control this place. She has to request an annual permission to meet the Lord Mayor. And she has to come out of Windsor or Buckingham Palace and meet the Lord Mayor at the border of the City and greater London authority area. The lord Mayor has such power.

Another vague paragraph.. People write shady deals and stuff without ever pointing to what shadiness it involves. The shadiness that layman cannot understand the transactions!!

Since, it hosted the East India Company, definitely the city looted a lot of wealth.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Why did OIL make you laugh? OIL controls every aspect of our life. From the car we drive to the keyboard we are warring over. The only thing that oil can hide is in GOLD.

Where are you going to keep the oil to back your currency dude? Take it out of ground and store in Central banks!! Or not take it out and never know how much is inside.

Gold was compact to store and it was easy to monitor its production and that made it a suitable choice for backing up the currency. Since everyone believed and still believes that Gold can store value makes it valuable. The fiat money gives central banks enough leverage to act during business cycles, but that does not mean one cannot believe in the value fiat money stores. Chinese believe it, that is why they have parked so many $ in the US economy.

 

[panduranghari]

Where are you going to keep the oil to back your currency dude? Take it out of ground and store in Central banks!! Or not take it out and never know how much is inside.

Gold was compact to store and it was easy to monitor its production and that made it a suitable choice for backing up the currency. Since everyone believed and still believes that Gold can store value makes it valuable. The fiat money gives central banks enough leverage to act during business cycles, but that does not mean one cannot believe in the value fiat money stores. Chinese believe it, that is why they have parked so many $ in the US economy.

I cannot explain economics to you. Perhaps doing a course in economics would help. I am not qualified to give a sermon but I am self taught in the aspects of economics which will affect me. And I think you will be here, I will be here and so will be the forum. We shall wait and see the way things pan out. I have certain notions which I have developed after trying to understand the system we live within. I think I look for proof daily to see if the idea I have formulated is working. To date from 2009 I have made certain decisions based on this notion. I have thankful that it has worked out as my thought blue print has said. I do not claim to be a know all but I certainly like to question the Mainstream view and come to independent conclusions. This perhaps has helped me more along with reading.

 

[trackwhack]

Oh dear, you're not reeling out that tired old adage about how India had 20% (or was it 25%?) of the worlds trade in 1700 are you?

Okay, a few points:

India didn't exist. The Indian sub continent was divided up by a number of rulers. Have a look at Tipu Sultan if you wish


Feeding them to tigers IIRC

The Indian sub continents share of global wealth in 1700 compared to the share of global wealth of say America in 1700? I suppose that's Britains fault as well?

When you conquer a country I'm sure you'll let all of the population crack on and live exactly as they did before and let them do with their mineral wealth as they wish? Doesn't happen that way as history shows us. Yes, Britain used India's resources same as all of the other colonial powers used theirs.

When the Mughals (Mongols) conquered India, did they act like that?

As i've said before and will say again, I am grateful for the contribution made by India in two World Wars and in other fighting.

Ok, I will attempt to cure your ignorance.

India during the Vedic age - 1500 - 500 BC.

Around 350 BCE

Around 250 BCE

Around 200 AD

850 AD

The Mughal Empire 1700 AD

The Maratha Empire 1750 AD


And then after 100 years of the East India Company

Anyone with half a brain can see that the concept of India existed for 5000 years (or more) Your countryman Christopher Columbus landed in America and started calling the natives India's. do you want to know when that happened?

And regarding historical GDP, who cares what an insignificant british internet troll thinks. Facts are not established by clowns like you. Your ancestors did try the whole Aryan invasion bull and indoctrinated us with that. now with genome mapping we know that was a crock of shit.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

I cannot explain economics to you. Perhaps doing a course in economics would help. I am not qualified to give a sermon but I am self taught in the aspects of economics which will affect me. And I think you will be here, I will be here and so will be the forum. We shall wait and see the way things pan out. I have certain notions which I have developed after trying to understand the system we live within. I think I look for proof daily to see if the idea I have formulated is working. To date from 2009 I have made certain decisions based on this notion. I have thankful that it has worked out as my thought blue print has said. I do not claim to be a know all but I certainly like to question the Mainstream view and come to independent conclusions. This perhaps has helped me more along with reading.

So now I know the reason for your ignorance of basic facts. Read some mainstream stuff as well and not just the conspiracy theories. Mainstream media does not constitute mainstream views. They have got it all wrong!!
Check out- The armchair economist by Steve Landsburg. I hope you would like it and would appreciate some of his views.

 

[panduranghari]

So now I know the reason for your ignorance of basic facts. Read some mainstream stuff as well and not just the conspiracy theories. Mainstream media does not constitute mainstream views. They have got it all wrong!!
Check out- The armchair economist by Steve Landsburg. I hope you would like it and would appreciate some of his views.

Sigh. I read mainstream stuff. I have traded in the stock market including warrants and options. Anyone who understands, knows warrants options etc are for really well aware individuals. Buying shares etc is common practice. But I have done a bit more than that. I have never made any money based on it anyway. But I have learnt that what happened in 2008 was a curtain raiser. There will be something like 2008 again but perhaps the scale will be magnified atleast 100 times.

 

[panduranghari]

As we are digressing I have started another thread. Please lets continue over there if you would like to.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...am-views-so-different-reality.html#post495085

 

[panduranghari]

Yeah, it is interesting. But laws of UK do not apply in this region is looks vague from what I googled. The regions can definitely have sovereignty over certain things. It would be nice if you could provide better insights. From what I understand it looks more like a business organization with its own set of rules.



Another vague paragraph.. People write shady deals and stuff without ever pointing to what shadiness it involves. The shadiness that layman cannot understand the transactions!!

Since, it hosted the East India Company, definitely the city looted a lot of wealth.

Shady financial deals like derivatives were disallowed by the wall street. Lehman bros collapsed due to the investments in London.

 

[civfanatic]

P.S. This thread reflects how much some of us still believe in the theory that wealth can only be looted or appropriated.

I agree that most of the wealth that the British siphoned from India was not materially 'looted'; the British made money first by selling high-quality Indian goods on the European market, and then (after acquiring political power in India) banning the production of those goods to eliminate competition and using India as a market for goods manufactured in Britain, which had begun the process of industrialization by this time. This had the double effect of enriching British manufacturers and destroying indigenous industries in India, leading millions of once self-sufficient Indian workers to go into poverty. British economic policies in India epitomized the classic colonial relationship, probably better than anywhere else in the world.

With that being said, there are plenty of instances throughout world history when states became obscenely powerful by literally looting the material wealth of other states. How did the Spanish Empire become so powerful in the 16th century?

 

[nrj]

Totally OT but I could not stop myself -

Why it is always being portrayed that without British Raj, India would've never had industrial revolution? Parts of the world which were not under British rule, never got railways or postal services ?

 

[LurkerBaba]

Why it is always being portrayed that without British Raj, India would've never had industrial revolution? Parts of the world which were not under British rule, never got railways or postal services ?

Because....Caste System, Polytheism and Sutee !

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

I agree that most of the wealth that the British siphoned from India was not materially 'looted'; the British made money first by selling high-quality Indian goods on the European market, and then (after acquiring political power in India) banning the production of those goods to eliminate competition and using India as a market for goods manufactured in Britain, which had begun the process of industrialization by this time. This had the double effect of enriching British manufacturers and destroying indigenous industries in India, leading millions of once self-sufficient Indian workers to go into poverty. British economic policies in India epitomized the classic colonial relationship, probably better than anywhere else in the world.

With that being said, there are plenty of instances throughout world history when states became obscenely powerful by literally looting the material wealth of other states. How did the Spanish Empire become so powerful in the 16th century?

Yes, Spain did it, Britain did it. But my point was contributing the entire wealth acquired by British to their imperialism is a big blunder. They were also among the most advanced nations and producers of wealth at that time. They were not just good at looting but were also good at creating.

 

[LalTopi]

Sakal. You bring up some good points, but I still think you have a tendency to draw broad and often incorrect conclusions based on disconnected and sometimes irrelevant facts. See my comments inline below. I prefer to get back to Churchill and the thread title now so will stop my general commentary - but feel free to continue with your general theories if you must.

^^ I did not justify British rule anywhere above.

Paragraph 1: UK declined due to its socialistic policies and not because they stopped looting.Not sure I agree. The The Labour government first came to power in 1924, and even you said that the Empire was already in decline by that stage. But - Britain was still making money out of India hence Churchill was so adamant about keeping India While US and Germany were pre-dominantly capitalistic, Britain took up socialism. Read more about post war Britain and Thatcherism No Thanks. I lived through four general elections of that Churchill with a handbag and refuse to read anything about herwhich arose to counter socialism. Also, not to forget the population parameter. US is much bigger than UK in terms of population, so an open and free economy with more people would be more stronger. Although, there is not much difference in per capita income of individuals in these nations. If India and China continue to progress the way we are doing right now and achieve western standards of living, we would be four times bigger than US economically. So look at population figures of these nations and do not forget they copied the British model. I think capitalism developed out of industrialisation - e.g. as per Marx. I would not say that this was a British invent although Britain was one of the earliest to industrialise. Also, as others have said, India could have industrialised much earlier, and increased its GDP, but it was specifically prevented from doing so in order that we would be forced to buy British manufactured goods. Britian started to decline as India's wealth declined (due to lack of investment) and Britian could not sell its inefficient expensive goods to anyone else.

Paragraph 2: The common man was looted by emperors before the dawn of British. For some reason we tend to forget their looting.I shall get round to them after I have tackled Churchill and Britain. The different kingdoms during British India were much more depressed and anti-industrialization as British India. So, I have not challenged our ingenuity or business acumen but I have challenged the notion that we would have industrialized better under Rajputana or Nizam. I never made that notion. Plus the princely states were all British lackies and should have been hung by their balls upside down from the nearest tree.Read about the plight of subjects under these kings.

Paragraph 3: Read more about caste system and then compare these systems. Caste system is much more than mere feudalism and finds its support in scriptures It also finds its oposition in scriptures. The bible also supports slavery, anti this anti that. so what? all scriptures have their ambiguities. I mentioned caste to point about how it contributed to illiteracy in pre-British India. Read Balai-c's earlier article of education in India But I would not compare completely different cultures and population to build a counterfactual. Nepal, which was independent and caste ridden till now can be a much close counterfactual than Japan or any other country. Also, I did not say British helped eradicate it or anything. I brought it up to say we were illiterate even without British and so no need to blame them for our illiteracy. So please follow the thread and the reasons why I brought in specific arguments. How we would have dealt with caste system in case of no British influence is better left for another debate Why - you brought up caste, not I? But you are right I prefer to get back to Churchill and the Bengal famine for this topic.

P.S. This thread reflects how much some of us still believe in the theory that wealth can only be looted or appropriated.I think most people on this thread understand that it can be looted, but that the looting cannot be sustained. Ultimately the parasite will decline along with its victim, which is what happened between Britain and India.