What was China doing when Romans were in third century crisis

[Azaad]

why?

See , Chang , when you're dead , you don't know you're dead but the people around you do. The same is true when you're an idiot.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

There must exist some deep connections between these two events.

Prove it. And no, there isn't.

 

[skywatcher]

See , Chang , when you're dead , you don't know you're dead but the people around you do. The same is true when you're an idiot.

you're saying you're an idiot. why

 

[Azaad]

you're saying you're an idiot. whyView attachment 244493

I'm saying you need therapy Chang. So that you don't see any connection between the political situation in 3rd century China & the Roman Empire & other idiotic ruminations of a schizophrenic mind only you're capable of.

 

[skywatcher]

I'm saying you need therapy Chang. So that you don't see any connection between the political situation in 3rd century China & the Roman Empire & other idiotic ruminations of a schizophrenic mind only you're capable of.

I also found striking similarities in the 5th century.

 

[Azaad]

I also found striking similarities in the 5th century.

I rest my case once more.

 

[skywatcher]

In the 5th century, the Roman Empire was completed divided into de facto western and eastern ones while the Chinese Empire was also divided into the northern and southern ones for the same reasons such as barbarian invasions. Western Roman Empire was eventually destroyed by the Germanic tribes and they inherited Roman culture while northern China was replaced by the sinicized Xianbei nomads originating from the Mongolian Steppe.

 

[skywatcher]

In the 5th century, the Roman Empire was completed divided into de facto western and eastern ones while the Chinese Empire was also divided into the northern and southern ones for the same reasons such as barbarian invasions. Western Roman Empire was eventually destroyed by the Germanic tribes and they inherited Roman culture while northern China was replaced by the sinicized Xianbei nomads originating from the Mongolian Steppe.

The Xianbei nomads established the Northern Wei Empire in northern China and the previous Chinese Jin Empire(later usurped by Jin generals) remained in the south confronting the Northern Wei in the 5th century. Very similar to the fall of western Roman Empire.

 

[skywatcher]

The Xianbei nomads established the Northern Wei Empire in northern China and the previous Chinese Jin Empire(later usurped by Jin generals) remained in the south confronting the Northern Wei in the 5th century. Very similar to the fall of western Roman Empire.
View attachment 244494

The Xianbei nomads settled and ruled northern China for more than a century and assimilated into Chinese at a staggering pace while new barbarians the Rouran emerged on the Mongolian Steppe, when the Turks were the slaves under the Rouran.

 

[skywatcher]

Background

When the Jin dynasty was established in 266, Emperor Wu of Jin sought to learn from the mistakes of his predecessor, the Cao Wei, by empowering the princes. Unlike the Wei, the princes were allowed to become military governors and were given personal armies in their fiefdoms. After unifying China in 280, Emperor Wu issued for the demobilization of every province and commandery in the empire and reduced the military authority of the provincial inspector into a civilian role. Only 100 military officials were stationed in large commanderies, while smaller commanderies only had 50.

The emperor had hope that concentrating military power in the hands of the princes would deter the gentry clans from assuming power, but these decisions led to the War of the Eight Princes after his death in 290. His successor, Emperor Hui of Jin, was developmentally disabled, and the princes pitted their armies against each other for control over the empire in light of the new emperor's lack of agency.

While the Jin military weakened itself under the princes, many defenseless commanderies became targets for rebellion by the empire's disgruntled or opportunistic subjects. In the finals years of the Western Jin, tribal subjects collectively known as the Five Barbarians emerged dominant over northern and western China. These Five Barbarians were the Xiongnu, Jie, Qiang, Di and Xianbei.

 

[skywatcher]

Southern Xiongnu

The migration of the nomadic people into the Chinese interior had been ongoing since the Han dynasty(202 BC-220 AD). In 50 CE, a few years after the Xiongnu empire was divided into two, the Southern Xiongnu became vassals to the Han. They moved their court to Xihe Commandery in Bing province and resettled in the frontier commanderies within the Great Wall. They were dependent on trade with the Han and cooperated with them to destroy the rival Northern Xiongnu. Although relations declined in the later years, with the Xiongnu occasionally rebelling, they remained as vassals even after the Han was replaced by the Cao Wei in 220.

In 216, the warlord, Cao Cao, abolished the chanyu office and divided the Southern Xiongnu into five divisions around Taiyuan Commandery. Gradually throughout the Cao Wei and early Western Jin periods, the Xiongnu elites began expressing resentment towards their new way of life. During the Jiaping era (249–254), the five divisions briefly unified under Liu Bao before the Wei-Jin courts intervened and forced them back into five. Revolts against Jin broke out in 272 and 294 but were both swiftly quelled.

Another ethnic group living in Bing at the time were the Jie people. Their exact origins is still debated by scholars today, but it is believed that they were once a part of the Southern Xiongnu and later resided in Shangdang. Between 303 and 304, Bing suffered from a famine which displaced many of the Xiongnu, Jie and other tribal populace. The provincial inspector had these people captured and sold into slavery to fund his army for an ongoing civil war.

 

[skywatcher]

Since establishing their presence in the Hexi Corridor in 121 BC, the Han Empire were in constant conflict with the Qiang people of present-day Gansu and Qinghai. To appease them, the Qiang were sometimes allowed to resettle into the Guanzhong region, as well as the watersheds of the Wei and Jing rivers. There, they lived together with Chinese settlers but faced oppression from the local administrators, which often led to rebellions. Living close to the Qiang were the Di people, who most became tributaries to the Han as the Han expanded westwards.

The fall of Han Empire and the Three Kingdoms period further encouraged the immigration of nomadic people to repopulate devastated areas and provide military power and labour. The Guanzhong region in particular became a contested region between warlords and later between the states of Cao Wei and Shu Han. In 219, Cao Cao relocated around 50,000 Di from Wudu to Tianshui and Fufeng commanderies. The Qiang and Di people were numerous in northwestern China, and they often fought for Wei or Shu depending on their circumstances. Other tribal people who resided in the northwest included the Lushuihu and Xianbei tribes such as the Tufa. The tribes made up around half of the population in Guanzhong.

While Cao Wei kept the situation mostly under control, the northwest descended into chaos under the Western Jin as their governors failed to keep the support of the tribes. In 270, the Xianbei chieftain, Tufa Shujineng, led a multi-ethnic rebellion against Jin in Liang and Qin provinces that lasted until 279, with the rebels briefly taking control over Liang. From 296 to 299, the various tribes rebelled again, this time within Guanzhong and acclaiming the Di chieftain, Qi Wannian as their emperor. These rebellions were accompanied by famines and plagues, with Qi Wannian's rebellion being so severe that it devastated Guanzhong and prompted tens of thousands of refugees to move into Hanzhong and Sichuan in search of food.

The rebellions, along with the Xiongnu revolts in Bing, raised alarms among a few people in the Jin court. After the unification, the minister Guo Qin, advised Emperor Wu to focus on moving the tribal peoples out of the borders. Following Qi Wannian's defeat, another minister, Jiang Tong, submitted an essay titled Xi Rong Lun (Discussion on Relocating the Barbarian Tribes) to the court, also calling for the tribes' repatriation. However, both proposals were rejected.

 

[skywatcher]

With the decline of the Xianbei confederation, the Murong, Duan and Yuwen tribes migrated to the Liaoxi region. The Murong was the first of the three to associate themselves with the Central Plains dynasties by aiding the Cao Wei in their campaign against Gongsun Yuan in Manchuria. They remained affiliated well after the founding of Jin, and despite a war between both sides from 281 to 289, the Murong resubmitted to Jin and their chieftain, Murong Hui, was appointed Commander of the Xianbei. Meanwhile, in 258, another Xianbei tribe, the Tuoba, occupied the abandoned city of Shengle and also became a vassal of Cao Wei and later Jin.

At the turn of the 4th century, the Inspector of You province, Wang Jun, sought to consolidate his control over his province amidst the War of the Eight Princes. He allied himself with the neighbouring Duan and a chief of the Yuwen, who provided him with auxiliaries who fought in the campaigns against Sima Ying and Sima Yong. The Xianbei were a deciding factor in Sima Yue's victory in the civil war, but they also partook in the sacking of Ye in 304 and Chang'an in 306, killing thousands of the cities' inhabitants. Their effectiveness encouraged Jin court to continue employing them in containing the growing threat of Xiongnu-led Han-Zhao Empire, with the Tuoba joining on the side of Jin as well.

 

[skywatcher]

In 304, the Xiongnu nobility in Bing province conspired to take advantage of the Jin princes' infighting to break away from the empire. Serving under the prince, Sima Ying, was the Xiongnu general, Liu Yuan. Liu Yuan was the grandson of the Southern Xiongnu chanyu, Yufuluo, although some modern Chinese historians believe he was a member of the non-related but influential Tuge tribe instead. He served a series of offices under Jin Empire overseeing the Xiongnu nomads, becoming popular among the Xiongnu and Han Chinese in Bing and You provinces.

Liu Yuan's granduncle, Liu Xuan, convinced the Xiongnu to elect Liu Yuan as their leader, so they sent an envoy to Ye, where Liu Yuan was stationed, to inform him of the plot. At the time, Sima Ying was on the verge of defeat as Wang Jun and his tribal allies marched onto Ye. After agreeing to join the plot, Liu Yuan received Sima Ying's permission to return to Bing so that he could gather the Xiongnu to help repel Wang Jun. Once Liu Yuan reached Lishi, he was acclaimed as the new Grand Chanyu and rallied around 50,000 soldiers.

Later in 304, Liu Yuan established the state of Han (renamed Zhao in 319, thus the name Han-Zhao). Despite being a Xiongnu, Liu Yuan depicted his state as a continuation of the Han Empire, citing that his ancestors like Modu Chanyu were married to a Han princess. He initially took the imperial title of King, only becoming Emperor in 308 to imitate the ascension of emperors of Han. To bolster his forces, he was willing to accept the Han Chinese and non-Xiongnu tribes like the Xianbei and Di to serve under him.

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

What were the Chinese doing when the Romans were in the third century crisis?

Roman Empire during Crisis of the Third Century (235–285)

View attachment 244420

Chinese Empire during the Three Kingdoms Period(220-280)
View attachment 244421

Is it a coincidence?View attachment 244422

Chinese were infighting amongst each other

 

[SKC]

Aag lage basti mai, Chaang apni masti mai!