Turkey shot down Russian Su 24

nirranj

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This situation will be closely monitored by many nations. If indeed s400 can enforce a No fly zone or destroy few turk planes in air, then I say that s400 will become quite a hit!!!

Say Argentina buys three s400 systems along with 3 Buyans, 3 kilos, some tens of kalibers, two regiments of Su30 or Su35 plus Su34!!! A straight six billion $$$ deal!!!

Voila, the Queens estate will loose its overseas property of Falklands once for all!!!

Russian bear is indeed destined for more world dominance provided they sustain in Syria, help Assad and Kurds to get their fair share and importantly defeat IsIS!!!
 

pmaitra

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US Backed “Moderate Terrorists” Fleeing Syria
The sources said that the “moderate terrorist” groups have not found any safe place to regroup their forces after the Syrian army, popular forces and Hezbollah fighters launched their join massive operations to route out militancy in the coastal province.
Meanwhile, terrorist groups acknowledged on their social media pages the death of a large group of their members, including Abad al-Aziz Hilal, in military operations in Aleppo province.
Following a series of fierce clashes with militants at the Eastern perimeter of the Siyasko Chemical Factory, the Syrian forces and its allies regained full control over the Aleppo-Raqqa Highway entrance to this facility.

Earlier today, the Syrian Army, popular forces and Hezbollah fighters completed the chain of a security ring around Kuweires airbase after pushing back the ISIL terrorist from all the villages and farms surrounding the airbase East of Aleppo.
The pro-government forces’ mop-up operations in the Eastern countryside of Aleppo successfully have ended in liberation of all the villages and farms and recapturing of the Aleppo-Raqqa highway near Kuweires airbase.

The Syria forces completely cut off the ISIL supplying route from Raqqa.
Over 100 Takfiri terrorists were killed in the Southern parts of Aleppo province.

The terrorists’ high fatalities came after they tried to prevent the Syrian army’s further advances in the Northern province by relocating their forces from the Northern parts of Aleppo province towards the Western and Southwestern parts of the province.
 

Sridhar

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US knew flight path of plane downed by Turkey: Putin

Moscow (AFP) - President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday that Russia had given prior information to the United States of the flight path of the plane downed by Turkey on the Syrian border.

"The American side, which leads the coalition that Turkey belongs to, knew about the location and time of our planes' flights, and we were hit exactly there and at that time," Putin said at a joint press conference with French counterpart Francois Hollande in the Kremlin.


Ahead of the Hollande talks, Putin and Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan traded barbs, with the Russian leader saying he was waiting for an apology and Erdogan ruling out any such move.

Putin on Thursday dismissed as "rubbish" Turkey's claim that it would not have shot down the jet if it had known it was Russian.

"They [our planes] have identification signs and these are well visible," Putin said. "Instead of [...] ensuring this never happens again, we are hearing unintelligible explanations and statements that there is nothing to apologise about."

Putin has also accused Turkey of buying oil from the Islamic State jihadist group, whose financing heavily relies on the sale of energy resources.

Putin said there was "no doubt" that oil from "terrorist-controlled" territory in Syria was making its way across the border into Turkey.

"We see from the sky where these vehicles [carrying oil] are going," Putin said. "They are going to Turkey day and night."

"These barrels are not only carrying oil but also the blood of our citizens because with this money terrorists buy weapons and ammunition and then organise bloody attacks," he added.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-knew-flight-path-plane-downed-turkey-putin-202631534.html
 

pmaitra

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Russia Releases Video Of S-400 SAM Deployment In Syria, As Putin Issues Warning To Obama

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 11/26/2015 20:25 -0500 | Zero Hedge

As reported two days ago, one of the first decisions a very angry Russia took in the aftermath of the shooting down of its Su-24 by a Turkish F-16 was to dispatch a Moskva guided-missile cruiser off the coast of Syria to provide air cover for its jets operating near Latakia, as well as send an unknown number of ultramodern S-400 (or SA-21 Growler in NATO designation) SAM batteries to Latakia to make sure that the tragic incident from Tuesday never repeats itself by sending Turkey a very clear message that the next time a Turkish warplane engages a Russian jet, Russia will immediate retaliate using ground forces.

Earlier today, Russia made a very explicit demonstration of the deployment of at least two S-400 batteries at Syria's Khmeimim airbase, with the Russian Ministry of Defense promptly publicizing the arrival with the following clip.


With a range of 250 miles, the S-400 could easily strike Turkish targets, and as the map below shows, Russia could even take down targets over northern Israel. As cited by the Independent, Nick de Larrinaga, Europe editor of the defense magazine IHS Jane’s Defense Weekly, said it would be “a significant increase” in the reach of Russian air-defense capacities. “The message that the Russians are trying to send is that they’re capable of defending themselves in Syria, should the situation escalate."





Needless to say, the US was not enthused and earlier today the US embassy in Moscow said that the "Russian deployment of the S-400 air-defense system to Syria won't aid the fight against the Islamic State, with the US diplomat adding that the US is hopeful Russia won’t use the system to target planes flown by international coalition since Islamic State doesn’t have air force." Clearly a warning to Putin not to dare use the rockets against Turkish (or other coalition) jets.

So what is Putin's intention by escalating the military deployment of Russian weapons in Syria? Conveniently he explained his thinking just a few hours ago during his press conference with Francois Hollande. In answering a question by a reporter from French Le Monde, Putin said the following:

"The S-400 is an air defense system. The reason we didn't have the system in Syria is because we thought our planes were flying at high enough altitudes where a terrorist could not reach them; they don't have weapons capable of downing our planes at the altitude of over 3 or 4 thousand meters. And We could never think that we could be stabbed in the backby a country we regarded as our ally. Our planes operated at altitudes of 5-6,000 meters and were completely unprotected against potential attacks from fighter jets - we could never imagine that that could be possible otherwise we would deploy such systems in the area protecting our bombers against possible attacks."

...

"We never did it because we regarded Turkey as our friend, we never expected an attack from that side. This is why we regard this attack as that of a traitor. But now we that this is possible, and we have to protect our planes. This is why we deployed a modern system, the S-400, it has a pretty long range and it's one of the most effective systems of this kind in the world. We will not stop there: if we have to we will also deploy our fighter jets in the area."

Bottom line: another direct engagement by a Turkish fighter will be its last, and in fact now that Russia is prepared we would not be at all surprised to see Russia cross into Turkish airspace on purpose just to provoke Erdogan to repeat the events from last week, only this time with the Russian ready and prepared to retaliate to any engagement. In fact, the odds of Russia doing just that in the next few days are especially high.

But while the reason behind the S-400 deployment was largely known to most, where Putin's press conference took an unexpected detour was what he said just around 20:30 in, when in not so many words, Putin effectively accused the US of leaking the coordinates of the Russian plane to Turkey, which was merely a hitman acting with the blessing of the Pentagon.

This is what Putin said:

"We told our US partners in advance where, when at what altitudes our pilots were going to operate. The US-led coalition, which includes Turkey, was aware of the time and place where our planes would operate. And this is exactly where and when we were attacked. Why did we share this information with the Americans? Either they don't control their allies, or they just pass this information left and right without realizing what the consequences of such actions might be. We will have to have a serious talk with our US partners.

In other words, just like in the tragic bombing of the Kunduz hospital by US forces (which has now been attributed to human error), so this time the target was a Russian plane which the US knew about well in advance, was targeted however not by the US itself, but by a NATO and US-alliance member, Turkey.

And while the deployment of the Russian SAM missiles was already known, the real message from today's presser, the one that will be the topic of a private and "serious talk with Russia's US partners", is that Putin indirectly blames Obama for what happened on Tuesday realizing that Erdogan was merely the "executor", one who is simply motivated to protect his (and his son's) Islamic State oil routes.

Full press conference below; the discussion of Russia's S-400 deployment begins 17:30 in:




 

Razor

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@Razor, I think what you implied might be a possibility:

"Act of Aggression"
Yup considering the russians seems to have given the flight path to the US.

This might explain how they were able to respond in such a short time span 17 secs; they were waiting??
 

pmaitra

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Here Is Why Erdogan’s Ambush of Russian Jet Was a Massive Blunder
Turkish president actually undermined his Western support

Alexander Mercouris | Russia Insider


The “Stab in the Back”

In shooting down the Russian SU24 Turkey’s President Erdogan has blundered badly.

He has caused the Russians to reinforce in Syria and is feeding Western doubts about him.

He has exposed himself to his Western allies as a dangerous and unpredictable ally.

There is a very small possibility the shoot down of the SU24 took place without Erdogan’s knowledge.

However the more we learn about the incident the more planned it looks

The SU24 was shot down very close to the Turkish border. The Turks claim it crossed the border. However if it did, then by the Turks’ own account it did so for just a few seconds.

The Turks claim they gave the SU24 10 warnings over a period of 5 minutes.

If true, this can only have been when the SU24 was in Syrian airspace. The Russians deny they received any warnings at all.

The US and NATO say they registered the Turkish warnings but they say it without much show of conviction.

Fox News has broadcast what it says is one of the warnings. However, if it was provided by a Turkish source - as is likely - then it is not reliable since it could so easily have been made up after the event.

Both sides anyway appear to agree that the SU24 was flying away from Turkey and back to its base in Syria when it was shot down. That argues against it posing any possible threat to Turkey when it was shot down.

The SU24 crashed well inside Syria. The Russians say the Turkish F16 that shot it down entered Syrian airspace to do it. Whilst there is no independent evidence to confirm that, the location of the crash site means it may be true.

The facts, though disputed in some places, overall do not justify the Turkish decision to shoot the SU24 down, even if it did violate Turkish airspace for a few seconds.

Embarrassingly a recording apparently exists, made in connection to the Syrian shoot-down of a Turkish F4 fighter back in 2012, in which no less a person than Erdogan himself apparently also says that an infringement of airspace of just a few seconds does not justify shooting an aircraft down.

Frankly the facts suggest a planned ambush by Turkish F16 fighters of a Russian aircraft engaged in bombing operations inside Syria.

If so then Erdogan would almost certainly have been involved. He might not have given a specific order to shoot down the particular SU24 that was shot down. However he almost certainly set the rules of engagement that led to the ambush that caused it to be shot down.

Why would he do such a thing?

Erdogan is someone who far more closely resembles the Western image of Putin than Putin himself does.

Where claims that Putin is corrupt and a billionaire are wholly unsubstantiated and almost certainly untrue, that Erdogan is a billionaire is an acknowledged fact, as is the involvement of some members of his family in shady business dealings.

Contrary to his Western image Putin’s manner and language is polite and restrained. Erdogan by contrast is often aggressive and confrontational.

Putin is highly calculating and always consults his chief advisers before making a decision.

Erdogan is impulsive and arbitrary, and is far more likely than Putin to make decisions on the hoof.

Unlike Putin, who puts up with everything, Erdogan is a notoriously prickly character who reacts badly to criticism.

He has jailed opposition activists and journalists and cracked down on the media in ways that Putin never has.

Recent events will have left Erdogan seething.

Firstly, the Russian intervention in Syria has reversed the tide of the war, which seemed to be going his way - or rather the way of the various jihadi groups he has been backing.

It also killed his project for a no-fly zone over Syria, which he was close to getting the US to back in the summer.

Erdogan must also have felt humiliated at the G20 summit in Antaliya in Turkey, of which he was nominally the host.

Putin produced evidence of the financial support the Islamic State is receiving from individuals in certain G20 countries. No one doubts Turkey is one of those G20 countries.

We also know that Putin also showed the other G20 leaders satellite images of lines of fuel tankers transporting the Islamic State’s oil to Turkey.

There are in fact widespread rumours of members of the Turkish establishment profiting from trade with the Islamic State. Some rumours even point the finger at members of Erdogan’s family, including his son.

To add to Erdogan’s sense of humiliation, in the last few days the Russians have begun bombing the fuel tankers, disrupting the oil trade between the Islamic State and its go-betweens in Turkey, whilst saying pointedly that they “have” to do it because “others” are failing to.

Lastly, the Russians have also been bombing the region close to Turkey where the SU24 was shot down.

Several villages in this area are inhabited by people who the news media calls “Turkmen.”

This is misleading. These people are not Turkmen from the Central Asian republic of Turkmenistan. They are ethnic Turks who were left in Syria when the Ottoman empire broke up.

The Western media regularly accuses Putin of posing as the defender of ethnic Russians outside Russia and of using ethnic Russians to destabilise the governments of former Soviet states.

There is no evidence of this or that Putin has ever entertained the ambition to recreate the USSR that is commonly attributed to him - including by no less a person than Obama himself.

By contrast Erdogan definitely does pose as the defender of Turks outside Turkey.

He has also pursued a “neo-Ottoman” foreign policy intended to reassert Turkish influence in neighbouring states like Syria that were once part of the Ottoman empire.

Given these ambitions, Russian bombing of an area of Syria inhabited by ethnic Turks - one previously marked out by Erdogan for one of his safe havens - would for Erdogan have been both infuriating and humiliating. It is easy to see how he might see it as a challenge.

In the light of all this, it is not difficult to see how someone like Erdogan, out of a mixture of anger, injured pride and miscalculation, might have ordered his air force to set an ambush to shoot down a Russian airplane when a good opportunity arose.

No doubt he calculated that when that happened the West would back him as a NATO ally threatened by Russian “aggression.”

That way he might have hoped to get his own back at the Russians and to wrest the political initiative back from them, whilst reassuring his allies in Syria and his supporters in Turkey that he is still a force to be reckoned with.

His officials over the last few days have been issuing warnings to the Russians to stop bombing ethnic Turkish areas.

In light of what has happened these warnings look like an attempt to set up an alibi to justify the shooting down of a Russian aircraft before it took place.

That the shoot-down was a planned rather than a spontaneous act, is also strongly suggested by how the Turks reacted after it took place.

Instead of complaining to the Russians or - better still - asking for an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council, which is the appropriate venue to discuss an event like that, the Turks turned to NATO instead.

The Russians have complained about this, and frankly it looks like an attempt to gain diplomatic cover from Turkey’s Western allies for a shoot-down that was planned in advance.

What has happened since however shows the extent of Erdogan’s miscalculation.

Firstly, the circumstances of the shoot-down were not prepared properly.

Instead of coming up with a convincing scenario that might justify the shoot-down, the Turks did the opposite. The best they could come up with was a claim the SU24 violated Turkish airspace for just a few seconds.

That makes the Turks rather than the Russians look aggressive and irresponsible.

The result is that judging from the comments appearing on Western media threads, the Western public is unconvinced and is swinging behind the Russians instead of the Turks.

The Russians for their part are refusing to follow Erdogan’s script.

Instead of warning and threatening the Turks in a way that might have given credence to Turkish claims of Russian “aggression,” they are stressing Turkey’s connections to the Islamic State and are taking steps to beef up their air defences.

They have moved the Moskva missile cruiser with its S300 missiles closer to the Syrian coast and have publicly given its captain orders to destroy aircraft that threaten their strike force.

They are also deploying the very powerful and sophisticated S400 anti aircraft missile system to their air base in Syria.

There is also a strong probability the Russians will reinforce their strike group in Syria with more air defence fighters.

They have publicly said their strike aircraft are henceforth forbidden from flying without air cover from Russian fighters.

Since there are only four Russian fighters in Syria - the four SU30s at Latakia - it is difficult to see how this can be done without sending more fighters there.

In other words what Erdogan has achieved is to give the Russians the reason or excuse to reinforce their air group in Syria beyond anything they had probably planned or intended.

With the deployment of S400 missiles in Syria, and the likely deployment of more sophisticated Russian fighters there, the balance of military power in the region is shifting even further away from Turkey, Israel and the US.

US and Israeli policy has been to do everything possible to prevent deployment of missile systems like the S400 to the region. The S400’s deployment to Syria has overturned that.

Combined with the deployment of sophisticated Russian fighters to Syria - now almost certainly on their way - events are moving in a way that must be filling Washington and Jerusalem with concern. They must be furious with Erdogan for bringing it about.

That however is only the start of it.

The biggest nightmare for the US and its European allies is not that the Turks will shoot down a Russian aircraft. It is that the Russians will shoot down a Turkish aircraft in circumstances where Western public opinion backs Russia.

The US and NATO do not want to be put in a position where they have to choose between upsetting the Turks by failing to give them the sort of backing the Turks feel they are entitled to as a NATO ally, and upsetting Western public opinion by siding publicly with Turkey and the jihadis groups it supports in a dispute with Russia in which Western public opinion backs Russia.

Erdogan has just brought that nightmare scenario for the West much closer.

The anger this is causing, and which Western leaders privately feel towards Erdogan, is shown by what they said after the SU24 was shot down.

If Erdogan was expecting a resounding show of support he must be disappointed.

Though the US and NATO made ritual comments of support, the main theme of their comments was not support for Turkey but a demand for restraint.

Some of the comments contained clear criticism of Turkey.

The harshest comments came from Germany. Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel was especially outspoken, saying

“This incident shows for the first time that we are to dealing with an actor who is unpredictable according to statements from various parties of the region – that is not Russia, that is Turkey.”

He was backed by his SPD colleague Foreign Minister Steinmeier, who said

“What we must hope for is that this occurrence will not deal a setback to the encouraging first talks, which offer a small hope of de-escalating the Syrian conflict.”

Angela Merkel’s spokesman, Steffan Siebert, simply said

“We call on Ankara and Moscow to do everything possible to avoid a further escalation.”

These words put Ankara - a German ally and NATO partner - on the same level as Moscow, Berlin’s and NATO’s supposed adversary.

Elsewhere words of support for Turkey have been lukewarm at best.

Steve Warren, spokesman for the US-led Combined Joint Task Force, said

“This is an incident between the Russian and the Turkish governments. It is not an issue that involves the [US-led coalition operations]. Our combat operations against ISIL (IS, ISIS) continue as planned and we are striking in both Iraq and Syria.”

A spokesman for British Prime Minister David Cameron - usually a staunch critic of Russia’s - put it this way:

“The prime minister strongly encouraged (Turkish) Prime Minister Davutoglu to make sure that there was direct communication between the Turks and the Russians on this.”

Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop - one of the most outspoken critics of Russia in connection with the MH17 tragedy - said:

“We are concerned about the incident where a Russian aircraft was shot down in the Syrian-Turkish border area, and we ask relevant parties to exercise restraint.”

Lastly, Obama himself, in a telephone conversation to Erdogan, mixed his support with a plain warning. According to a White House statement he said that

“(Whilst) US and NATO support Turkey’s right to defend its sovereignty……The leaders (ie. Obama and Erdogan - AM) agreed on the importance of de-escalating the situation and pursuing arrangements to ensure that such incidents do not happen again.”

It is impossible to read in these comments anything other than an implied - and in the German case a not so implied - rebuke of Erdogan. If is he after all he who has failed to exercise “restraint” by authorising his air force to shoot the SU24 down.

The West has not yet quite brought itself to abandon him. However he is now under notice to behave himself. If he fails to do so he risks finding himself on his own.
_______________________
Commentary:
  • The Europeans understand that their prime enemy is ISIS, and not Russia.
  • The US understands that it will not have Europe behind Turkey if the Russian S-400 shoots down a Turkish F-16. This by extension implies a Russia imposed de facto no-fly zone in the circle representing the range of the S-400, which covers almost all of Syria, northern Israel, a much of Southern Turkey.
  • Turkey overreacted in its shooting down of the Sukhoi-24.
  • It is possible that Putin has suggested that the US might have been complicit with the intention of isolating Turkey and the US from the Europeans.
  • Whether the US was complicit in Turkey shooting down the Sukhoi-24, at this point, it is reasonable to apply Occam’s Razor and assume it was Turkey’s decision alone.
 

pmaitra

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Yup considering the russians seems to have given the flight path to the US.

This might explain how they were able to respond in such a short time span 17 secs; they were waiting??
That is one hypothesis. The other one is in the commentary in the post above.
 

pmaitra

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OPEN AND SHUT: Turkey Attacked Russian Jet to Dash Hopes of Western Cooperation on ISIS
It’s clear as crystal if you ask us. Ankara needs west and Russia apart if ‘Islamist revolutionaries’ in Syria are to have a chance

Philip Giraldi | (The American Conservative) | Russia Insider



Originally appeared at The American Conservative

The shooting down of a Russian fighter plane by a Turkish F-16 is an extremely disturbing turn of events.

Turkey claims that the SU-24 aircraft had violated its airspace and had not responded to repeated warnings before the armed response took place. The Russians for their part claim that they were operating in Syrian airspace with the concurrence of the Damascus government.

President Vladimir Putin appeared on Russian television shortly after the plane went down and was clearly furious, denouncing a “stab in the back by the terrorists’ accomplices” and warning that there would be “severe consequences.” Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov cancelled a planned Wednesday visit to talk with his counterpart in Ankara.

The shoot down will have repercussions. It will inevitably involve some kind of response from NATO while also rendering the creation of any grand alliance against ISIS much less likely.

Turkey has produced a map indicating where the violation of airspace allegedly took place. If the map is accurate, it was over a finger of land two miles wide that juts into Syria. The map and Turkish commentary relating to it suggest that the incursion occurred when the Russian plane crossed the border, but there is perhaps inevitably a problem with that account. A fighter traveling at even subsonic speed would have passed over the Turkish territory in roughly twelve seconds, which rather suggests that there would not have been time for any “repeated warnings.”

Then there is the problem with where the plane actually came down. Admittedly the aircraft would not necessarily plummet straight down to mark the spot where it was hit, but the remains appear to have wound up comfortably inside Syria. A video of the plane’s downing also seems to show it being hit and then going directly down.

There is also the question of who gave the order to fire—and why. The Turks have been complaining about Russian aircraft coming too close to the border and there has been inflammatory media coverage about alleged bombings of the ethnic Turkish Turkmen tribesmen who live in the area on the Syrian side.

But given the political sensitivity of what is occurring along the Turkey-Syria border, one would have to suspect that any decision to take decisive action came from the top levels of the government in Ankara. American, British, French and Russian airplanes are all operating over northern Syria. None of those planes can be construed as being hostile to Turkey while the terrorist and rebel groups have no air forces.

Why a relatively minor incursion, if it indeed took place, would warrant a shoot down has to be questioned unless it was actually a Turkish plan to engage a Russian plane as soon as it could be plausibly claimed that there had been a violation of airspace.

Why would the Turks do that? Because Russia is supporting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, apparently with considerable success, and Turkey has been extremely persistent in their demands that he be removed. Al-Assad is seen by Turkey, rightly or wrongly, as a supporter of Kurdish militancy along the long and porous border with Turkey.


This explains why Ankara has been lukewarm in its support of the campaign against ISIS, tacitly cooperating with the terrorist group, while at the same time focusing its own military effort against the Kurds, which it sees as an existential threat directed against the unity of the Turkish Republic.

Would Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan do something so reckless? Only he knows for sure, but if his objective was to derail the creation of a unified front against terrorist and rebel groups in Syria and thereby weaken the regime in Damascus, he might just believe that the risk was worth the potential gain.
__________________________
Commentary: Essentially, Turkey wanted to prevent Russia and West coming together. Unfortunately, when one plays with a dog, there is a possibility of getting bitten, and when one plays with a mad dog, there is the certainly of getting bitten. With Turkey collaborating with ISIS and other Jihadist terrorist groups, it is almost obvious that these groups will strike at anyone and anything western, given half an opportunity. That is exactly what happened in Paris, and might as well happen anywhere.
 

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Turkey definitely got the co-ordinates from the US on the Russian planes... My understanding is Turkey acted on it own to shoot down the SU24... Turkey is very angry with Russia on the sudden reversal of the Jihadi's fortunes after Russia's bombing stikes...

I am surprised the Turks are so big Idiots !! Now they look more stupid with Russian increasing the pounding the same villages...

1) Turkey loses the European public supports as it gets exposed as ISIS supporter...
2) Turkey also looses the control on the Syrian border areas with likely S400 coverage. It is definite that Russian are also looking for an opportunity to bring down F16's in its vicinity...
3) If escalation happens it will be extremely difficult for NATO & US to openly side with Turkey post Paris attacks...
 

Razor

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That is one hypothesis. The other one is in the commentary in the post above.
Okay.

But I don't believe in occam's razor. I think it is fully applicable only to non-intelligent systems.
 

Razor

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OPEN AND SHUT: Turkey Attacked Russian Jet to Dash Hopes of Western Cooperation on ISIS
It’s clear as crystal if you ask us. Ankara needs west and Russia apart if ‘Islamist revolutionaries’ in Syria are to have a chance

Philip Giraldi | (The American Conservative) | Russia Insider



Originally appeared at The American Conservative

The shooting down of a Russian fighter plane by a Turkish F-16 is an extremely disturbing turn of events.

Turkey claims that the SU-24 aircraft had violated its airspace and had not responded to repeated warnings before the armed response took place. The Russians for their part claim that they were operating in Syrian airspace with the concurrence of the Damascus government.

President Vladimir Putin appeared on Russian television shortly after the plane went down and was clearly furious, denouncing a “stab in the back by the terrorists’ accomplices” and warning that there would be “severe consequences.” Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov cancelled a planned Wednesday visit to talk with his counterpart in Ankara.

The shoot down will have repercussions. It will inevitably involve some kind of response from NATO while also rendering the creation of any grand alliance against ISIS much less likely.

Turkey has produced a map indicating where the violation of airspace allegedly took place. If the map is accurate, it was over a finger of land two miles wide that juts into Syria. The map and Turkish commentary relating to it suggest that the incursion occurred when the Russian plane crossed the border, but there is perhaps inevitably a problem with that account. A fighter traveling at even subsonic speed would have passed over the Turkish territory in roughly twelve seconds, which rather suggests that there would not have been time for any “repeated warnings.”

Then there is the problem with where the plane actually came down. Admittedly the aircraft would not necessarily plummet straight down to mark the spot where it was hit, but the remains appear to have wound up comfortably inside Syria. A video of the plane’s downing also seems to show it being hit and then going directly down.

There is also the question of who gave the order to fire—and why. The Turks have been complaining about Russian aircraft coming too close to the border and there has been inflammatory media coverage about alleged bombings of the ethnic Turkish Turkmen tribesmen who live in the area on the Syrian side.

But given the political sensitivity of what is occurring along the Turkey-Syria border, one would have to suspect that any decision to take decisive action came from the top levels of the government in Ankara. American, British, French and Russian airplanes are all operating over northern Syria. None of those planes can be construed as being hostile to Turkey while the terrorist and rebel groups have no air forces.

Why a relatively minor incursion, if it indeed took place, would warrant a shoot down has to be questioned unless it was actually a Turkish plan to engage a Russian plane as soon as it could be plausibly claimed that there had been a violation of airspace.

Why would the Turks do that? Because Russia is supporting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, apparently with considerable success, and Turkey has been extremely persistent in their demands that he be removed. Al-Assad is seen by Turkey, rightly or wrongly, as a supporter of Kurdish militancy along the long and porous border with Turkey.


This explains why Ankara has been lukewarm in its support of the campaign against ISIS, tacitly cooperating with the terrorist group, while at the same time focusing its own military effort against the Kurds, which it sees as an existential threat directed against the unity of the Turkish Republic.

Would Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan do something so reckless? Only he knows for sure, but if his objective was to derail the creation of a unified front against terrorist and rebel groups in Syria and thereby weaken the regime in Damascus, he might just believe that the risk was worth the potential gain.
__________________________
Commentary: Essentially, Turkey wanted to prevent Russia and West coming together. Unfortunately, when one plays with a dog, there is a possibility of getting bitten, and when one plays with a mad dog, there is the certainly of getting bitten. With Turkey collaborating with ISIS and other Jihadist terrorist groups, it is almost obvious that these groups will strike at anyone and anything western, given half an opportunity. That is exactly what happened in Paris, and might as well happen anywhere.
Here (in the heading and elsewhere) I think the terms "Western", "West" and so on are incorrect.
At best co-operation b/w a few euro countries and russia. And certainly West doesn't include the US, in this case.
I still believe American blesssings were given.
 

pmaitra

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Okay.

But I don't believe in occam's razor. I think it is fully applicable only to non-intelligent systems.
Of course, I could be wrong. You are right. Occam's Razor applies to non-intelligent systems. An intelligent system performs intelligently only as long it is trained with good data. We don't have data. Only hypotheses. That is why Occam's Razor. :)
 

Razor

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Of course, I could be wrong. You are right. Occam's Razor applies to non-intelligent systems. An intelligent system performs intelligently only as long it is trained with good data. We don't have data. Only hypotheses. That is why Occam's Razor. :)
Well, okay.

But what I meant was humans emotions/intelligence invalidate occam's.

I could be wrong.

I understand occam's razor to be: Several options, choose the simplest; several hypotheses, one with least assumptions is gold.
This may work for a physics experiment or a mathematical formula based derivation etc, but when humans are putting their emotions and intelligence to the event does it still hold true?

I still don't understand hw occam's razor is cited by a lot of people. Doesn't make sense to me.
 

pmaitra

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Well, okay.

But what I meant was humans emotions/intelligence invalidate occam's.

I could be wrong.

I understand occam's razor to be: Several options, choose the simplest; several hypotheses, one with least assumptions is gold.
This may work for a physics experiment or a mathematical formula based derivation etc, but when humans are putting their emotions and intelligence to the event does it still hold true?

I still don't understand hw occam's razor is cited by a lot of people. Doesn't make sense to me.
Occam's Razor is, as you said, pick the simplest hypothesis that best explains/fits the data.

It is not entirely un-intelligent. It is more complicated than underfitting and less complicated than overfitting, and better than both.

BTW, I was wrong. It is not that we don't have data. We have some data, but not all the data. So, we will use only the data we have (Turkey helping Syrian Turks, Syrian Turks against Assad, Russia against Syrian Turks, Turkey shot down Su-24) and work with it.
 

Akim

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Not through the kurds. I am expecting S400 proving itself. If Erdogan continues with his statements, expect F-16's getting swatted.
S-400 is just a demonstration maneuver. Russia was on the ml. base of effective air defense systems.
 

Razor

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Occam's Razor is, as you said, pick the simplest hypothesis that best explains/fits the data.

It is not entirely un-intelligent. It is more complicated than underfitting and less complicated than overfitting, and better than both.

BTW, I was wrong. It is not that we don't have data. We have some data, but not all the data. So, we will use only the data we have (Turkey helping Syrian Turks, Syrian Turks against Assad, Russia against Syrian Turks, Turkey shot down Su-24) and work with it.
If Occam's razor was true, life would be so easy and solving crime would be much easier.
But humans are complex bastards.

Gut feelings tell me ockam was a lazy/crazy guy.

Maybe I'm not getting something. We'll leave it for another thread.
 
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pmaitra

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If Occam's razor was true, life would be so easy and solving crime would be much easier.
But humans are complex bastards.

Gut feelings tell me ockam was a lazy/crazy guy.
Scientists who use Occam's Razor are not exactly lazy. They just avoid spending effort on something seemingly undoable.
In the scientific method, Occam's razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic or a scientific result; the preference for simplicity in the scientific method is based on the falsifiabilitycriterion. For each accepted explanation of a phenomenon, there may be an extremely large, perhaps even incomprehensible, number of possible and more complex alternatives, because one can always burden failing explanations with ad hoc hypothesis to prevent them from being falsified; therefore, simpler theories are preferable to more complex ones because they are more testable.
It was used by Sir William Hamilton, who names it after another William.
The term Occam's razor first appeared in 1852 in the works of Sir William Hamilton, 9th Baronet (1788–1856), centuries after William of Ockham's death in 1347.[12] Ockham did not invent this "razor"—its association with him may be due to the frequency and effectiveness with which he used it (Ariew 1976). Ockham stated the principle in various ways, but the most popular version, "Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" (Non sunt multiplicanda entia sine necessitate) was formulated by the Irish Franciscan philosopher John Punch in his 1639 commentary on the works of Duns Scotus.
The other William is William of Ockham.
William of Ockham was born in Ockham, Surrey in 1285 and joined the Franciscan order at an early age.[5] It is believed that he studied theology at the University of Oxford from 1309 to 1321, but while he completed all the requirements for a master's degree in theology (the 14th century equivalent of a doctorate[citation needed]) he was never made regent master.[6] Because of this, he acquired the honorific title Venerabilis Inceptor, or "Venerable Beginner" (an inceptor was a student formally admitted to the ranks of teachers by the university authorities[7]).
. . .
He spent much of the remainder of his life writing about political issues, including the relative authority and rights of the spiritual and temporal powers. After Michael of Cesena's death in 1342, William became the leader of the small band of Franciscan dissidents living in exile with Louis IV. Ockham died (prior to the outbreak of the plague, or Black Death) on 9 April 1347.[13] He was officially rehabilitated by Innocent VI in 1359[citation needed].
Not lazy by any means, but these people, being philosophers, are like modern day "think tanks," some, and certainly not all, of which are run by the Kagans and Khodorkovskys today. o_O
 

punjab47

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Russia will probably kill some high-ranking turks, air support some kurds & news cycle will forget about it in 2 weeks.
 

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