The Indian army is fast losing its morale

[Ky Loung]

It is somewhat different in Indian Armed Forces unlike the Western counterparts. Here, JCO's & young officers are the ears, eyes, mouth, hands & feet.

The non-commission officers (Sargent/Chiefs) is the link between the enlisted and commissioned officers. The backbone of the US military are the ones leading the charge. These people are the NCO and Captains. Majors and up don't lead the charge because they are too old and hold a lot of secrets. On the other hand Lieutenants are too young and inexperience to do the job. So it up the the Sargent/Chiefs to guild the young officer. A good Captain will always side with his NCO over his lieutenants that because Sargent have more experience and the enlisted have more trust in their Sargent. Basically lieutenants = private out of boot camp. Very little experience in military and life.

In the US military you can go from private to general. Most NCO stay NCO because they love the job. They love working with young kids. Teaching them how to be warriors, keeping them out of trouble, and making sure they are doing their jobs.

 

[Ky Loung]

I think army needs a confidential survey by an external agency about the reasons for discontent. The officer corps has become too narrow minded.
@Ray, you come from army background and you have a tendency to justify everything in army and gloss over serious shortcomings.

In the USA we are addicted to polls and survey. It's always a good idea to ask the people who you going to help what's wrong. It doesn't matter how good the solution, if you can't properly ID the problem the solution will always be wrong.

 

[Ky Loung]

The promotions in officers should be completely based on merit, and not on years of service. The solution is to increase officer intake in NDA to perhaps 1500 - 2000 per year.

Promotions should always be base on merit. A lot of officers in the USA are pass over. If an officer passed X amount of time it's a clue the military does not require your service any longer.

On military fitness. A good boot camp system should fix all under or over weight kids.

 

[sgarg]

@sgarg I am a veteran at SSB's. There is no competitive examination in India that is more comprehensive.

And, There is negligible emphasis on Physical fitness.

All obstacles one requires to overcome during GTO round can be tackled by an average-built person with some practice/skill. This is one area where Sainik Schools score, as these obstacles are a cakewalk for them.

Instead, it is during Command Tasks & Group Tasks that true leadership traits of a candidate emerge. So, the focus is lot more on leadership skills, psychological fitness & most of all, on the ability or mental toughness to withstand the NDA regimen.

Once results from GTO, Psychological & Personal Interview round are collated before/during Conference, borderline candidates are given a chance by being asked a question or two.

But, why I am telling you this ? You have already undergone this, haven't you ?

And, there is absolutely no need for Armed Forces to have "representational arrangement" based on % of communities our population. Forces should continue striving to recruit only the very best, they can manage.

I never appeared for NDA. My posts are based on feedback from other people who have.

I have already said in an earlier post that the requirements for a military officer MUST be included in curriculum of schools. The problem is that children ARE NOT prepared for what army expects. You fail to understand a very important fact of life that a man becomes what education make him. It is mostly education that is reflected in a person's personality.

If military is not getting enough officers as Mr Ray claims, then there is a serious problem with India's education system. The question also arises why scores of military schools and Sainik schools (plus KVs which are associated with military) are unable to create LEADERS for the military.

Why is there a shortage?? The shortage affects the fighting ability of the army. How will Army win wars with this kind of shortage of junior officers?

I completely disagree with romantic notion of war. War is unexpected and unpredictable. Indian losses can be far higher than expected. A war can result in shortage of manpower. It is very important to assess reserves and the means to boost manpower. India is a country which remains directionless in military affairs. While I see lecturing from you, none of this lecturing is actually impressive. What we hear from multiple people is not at all so impressive despite these purported high standards of selection.

 

[sgarg]

The very fact that military officers are obsessed with pay and rank, and not the urgent operational matters is A VERY SERIOUS CONCERN. The Army should focus on improving its equipment and training. Army should focus on increasing manpower. Army should focus on local sources of equipment. This is the crying need.

The irritants like position of IAS and IPS will also get fixed in due time. However the situation with military is very urgent where the deficiencies need to be fixed.

India is NOT a rich country. The government service in India can never pay big bucks. Military service is nothing but government service.

Military is a very large part of government manpower. I do not see how military pay can increase significantly. I think more important is to broadbase recruitment so that there are enough applicants for the pay that is offered.

 

[Ray]

First thing the government (federal, state, and local) are not immune to lawsuit. In fact they get sue every minute in the USA. Any citizens that have grievance can sue the government in court. Even the smallest thing can be sue in the USA. It the main reason why the USA have the largest population of lawyers.

The military however are immune against lawsuits in conflict. The people that serve in the military are immune to lawsuits in conflict. They are judge by military courts which the military runs.

Keep in mind the US military is an all volunteer force. You are not force to join the military. There is no draft. The military have the right to decide who can join and who can't. The US military have rejected countless people that want to join for many reasons.

Military personnel station in foreign countries live in barracks/base. In the USA you can live within civilian society or on base. Some prefer living on base because it cheaper. A lot of people join the military comes from military backgrounds, mostly middle class, higher education then civilians, and white. Here is the report on the issue. So yes they are segregated.

Military Recruiting Standards | Demographics of Military Personnel

Here it is for you about US Govt personnel Immunity Law and sections

Besides authorizing official capacity suits against state and local officials for structural injunctive relief, 42 U.S.C. § 1983 authorizes claims against those officials in their individual capacity for compensatory and punitive damages. Although, as discussed above, the Eleventh Amendment limits official capacity claims against state officials to prospective injunctive relief, it does not affect damage claims against those officials in their individual capacity./1/ In this section, we discuss when absolute and qualified immunity limits individual capacity suits against public officials.

8.2.A. Absolute Immunity

By its terms, Section 1983 imposes liability without defense on state and local officials who, acting under color of law in their individual capacity, deprive plaintiffs of rights created by the Constitution and federal law. Nevertheless, the Supreme Court, drawing on common law, created absolute immunity from liability for some government officials and qualified immunity for others. Absolute and qualified immunity were developed to protect officials from lawsuits for actions relating to their official duties.

Details are at
8.2 Suits Against Public Officials in Their Individual Capacity | Federal Practice Manual for Legal Aid Attorneys

 

[pkroyal]

@sgarg
"

The very fact that military officers are obsessed with pay and rank, and not the urgent operational matters is A VERY SERIOUS CONCERN. The Army should focus on improving its equipment and training. Army should focus on increasing manpower. Army should focus on local sources of equipment. This is the crying need."

Either you are naive or gullible or both
Army should focus on local sources of equipment ?

Pray what should they be :-
Catapults, bows & arrows,stones,lathis ??
Modern military equipment is high tech, India at present is in dire need of high end technology , investment & R&D in the defence sector
So get of your high horse, stop pontificating on subjects you have peripheral knowledge & join in some hard nosed research or putting your money in defence R&D. Help the nation by telling the kids in your domain to work hard & join the forces.

For the sake of this forum take a one year sabbatical , educate yourself on matters of military importance & how the IA operates, then join the discussion with the pearls of wisdom that seem to escape from the vast wasteland between your ears.

 

[Ray]

@sgarg

The very fact that military officers are obsessed with pay and rank, and not the urgent operational matters is A VERY SERIOUS CONCERN.

If urgent operational matters were not given the concern desired, then you would be singing the Pakistani National Anthem or the Chinese one.

You are a teacher, do you work for love and fresh air?

And with the UGC pay scales, and your limited teaching time per day, do you think you deserve the same, when in actuality you are poodle faking and churning out yahoos instead of worthy citizens who are steeped in civic sense?

It is time you heed @pkroyal heartfelt and genuine advice

For the sake of this forum take a one year sabbatical , educate yourself on matters of military importance & how the IA operates, then join the discussion with the pearls of wisdom that seem to escape from the vast wasteland between your ears.

Right now, you are coming out as a person who is very ignorant and illiterate in matters military.

My heartiest condolences to your student, if this is the type of homework you do to teach them whatever you teach.

I was an instructor (teacher in civil parlance) and it was a great ordeal, though very satisfying, to burn the midnight oil to ensure that I knew the subject, taught well and answered the students' queries with complete confidence and knowledge. And unlike your subject, in the military the situation is fluid and so one had to keep abreast with the latest and not poodle fake with well set unchanging theories as you do.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

The non-commission officers (Sargent/Chiefs) is the link between the enlisted and commissioned officers. The backbone of the US military are the ones leading the charge. These people are the NCO and Captains. Majors and up don't lead the charge because they are too old and hold a lot of secrets. On the other hand Lieutenants are too young and inexperience to do the job. So it up the the Sargent/Chiefs to guild the young officer. A good Captain will always side with his NCO over his lieutenants that because Sargent have more experience and the enlisted have more trust in their Sargent. Basically lieutenants = private out of boot camp. Very little experience in military and life.

In the US military you can go from private to general. Most NCO stay NCO because they love the job. They love working with young kids. Teaching them how to be warriors, keeping them out of trouble, and making sure they are doing their jobs.

When you talk of NCO's (sergeants), are they a part of OR's (Other Ranks) ? We have a additional layer of hierarchy between NCO's & Officers, called JCO's (Junior Commissioned Officers), who perform similar role as your NCO.

In India, it is usually, Lt. & Captains (if necessary, Major as well) leading the charge during all combat as well as during CI Ops. They are pretty young. 23-32 years.

 

[Ray]

The non-commission officers (Sargent/Chiefs) is the link between the enlisted and commissioned officers. The backbone of the US military are the ones leading the charge. These people are the NCO and Captains. Majors and up don't lead the charge because they are too old and hold a lot of secrets. On the other hand Lieutenants are too young and inexperience to do the job. So it up the the Sargent/Chiefs to guild the young officer. A good Captain will always side with his NCO over his lieutenants that because Sargent have more experience and the enlisted have more trust in their Sargent. Basically lieutenants = private out of boot camp. Very little experience in military and life.

In the US military you can go from private to general. Most NCO stay NCO because they love the job. They love working with young kids. Teaching them how to be warriors, keeping them out of trouble, and making sure they are doing their jobs.

In the Indian Army, it is the officers who lead from the front.

The NCOs and JCOs command their respective commands.

All contribute to the plan but the execution is through the leadership of the officers.

A Hav is responsible for his Section in war and peace and the JCO is responsible likewise for his Platoon or if a Lt/ Capt is the Platoon Cdr, then the JCO advices since he has more experience.

Rarely is it an independent Platoon that goes into action given our tactical situations, and when they do, then it is the JCO who leads from the front. Ambushes, Protective Patrols, Road Opening are some of the tasks that a Platoon or even a section does independently.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

The very fact that military officers are obsessed with pay and rank, and not the urgent operational matters is A VERY SERIOUS CONCERN. The Army should focus on improving its equipment and training. Army should focus on increasing manpower. Army should focus on local sources of equipment. This is the crying need.

The irritants like position of IAS and IPS will also get fixed in due time. However the situation with military is very urgent where the deficiencies need to be fixed.

India is NOT a rich country. The government service in India can never pay big bucks. Military service is nothing but government service.

Military is a very large part of government manpower. I do not see how military pay can increase significantly. I think more important is to broadbase recruitment so that there are enough applicants for the pay that is offered.

Garg sahab, aap mahaan hain...

 

[TrueSpirit1]

I never appeared for NDA. My posts are based on feedback from other people who have.

I have already said in an earlier post that the requirements for a military officer MUST be included in curriculum of schools. The problem is that children ARE NOT prepared for what army expects. You fail to understand a very important fact of life that a man becomes what education make him. It is mostly education that is reflected in a person's personality.

If military is not getting enough officers as Mr Ray claims, then there is a serious problem with India's education system. The question also arises why scores of military schools and Sainik schools (plus KVs which are associated with military) are unable to create LEADERS for the military.

Why is there a shortage?? The shortage affects the fighting ability of the army. How will Army win wars with this kind of shortage of junior officers?

I completely disagree with romantic notion of war. War is unexpected and unpredictable. Indian losses can be far higher than expected. A war can result in shortage of manpower. It is very important to assess reserves and the means to boost manpower. India is a country which remains directionless in military affairs. While I see lecturing from you, none of this lecturing is actually impressive. What we hear from multiple people is not at all so impressive despite these purported high standards of selection.

Shortage is due to attrition (mostly voluntary), which is due to multiple factors being addressed.

 

[Ray]

I think more important is to broadbase recruitment so that there are enough applicants for the pay that is offered.

@sgarg

Guess what you will get if you pay peanuts?

Shortage is basically because the civil market has better financial packages, less stress, less accountability. less responsibility and what is most important, settled family life and great creature comforts.

 

[Singh]

@sgarg

Guess what you will get if you pay peanuts?

Shortage is basically because the civil market has better financial packages, less stress, less accountability. less responsibility and what is most important, settled family life and great creature comforts.

Lt Col and above officers have an excellent quality of life

 

[Ray]

Lt Col and above officers have an excellent quality of life

Just visit some of the dwellings and see the peeling whitewash, not working toilets and broken staircases and you will realise what it is like. And Separated Family Quarters? They are a standing joke!

I have lived in Kotah House in one bedroom and the kitchen and toilet as one room with a curtain (you install it yourself) separating. Great living, what?

I went to a Brigadier's flat in Delhi and I was so horrified that I shot a letter to the E in C. Got no reply. Nor was anything done.

I have also gone to an IAS chap at Pandara Market (or whatever is the name) area (opposite Kotah House the Naval Mess) and the difference was so stark.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

@Ray Sir, It is widely believed & I have also heard this from multiple Paramilitary & Intelligence Officers that most (not all) Army Officers (not IAF officers) are extremely rank/hierarchy conscious. Often, they keep looking at shoulders of the opposite person & their responses, or lack of it, are calibrated based on the their relative superiority/junior of the opposite person.

How true is that ?

 

[Singh]

Just visit some of the dwellings and see the peeling whitewash, not working toilets and broken staircases and you will realise what it is like.

I went to a Brigadier's flat in Delhi and I was so horrified that I shot a letter to the E in C. Got no reply. Nor was anything done.

Which flat ? Arjan Vihar ?

EME has the most well appointed messes and guest houses.

I also happened to visit a Generals Delhi residence I was floored.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

@Ray Sir, I think pay-wise young officers are quite happier now than they were earlier & overall things are improving. From within the Army, there is a lot of +ve vibe to be seen/heard, as compared to what it was like 3-4 years ago. However, this is from the perspective of young officers only, whose concerns may not be all-encompassing.

@Singh Also, this depends on who is doing the talking. There are officers in AD Artillery (& those posted in missile regiments), who have never been posted far from civilization, have never handled or even witnessed any CI Ops, have had no casualty of their known acquaintances. They are the most gung-ho pinky-rosy.

While the ones who are knee-deep in CI, have comrades/informants getting killed routinely, & been stationed in hellholes like Manipur do not share a very rosy picture.

But the majority of young officers appear more satisfied than they were earlier. The grouse against IAS/IPS is subdued but sorely persists.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Which flat ? Arjan Vihar ?

EME has the most well appointed messes and guest houses.

I also happened to visit a Generals Delhi residence I was floored.

A General..in Delhi...obviously you are supposed to be floored. But, think of % Generals in IA & how many of them in metros ?

2 years ago, I was with my friend (for a week) who was, till last year, ADC to a General based in Jammu. While quaint, classy & beautiful,it was not very grand/impressive. Even the Principal & Registrar in my school (Colonel rank) had way more grand accommodations. It depends on multiple factors.

 

[Ray]

Which flat ? Arjan Vihar ?

EME has the most well appointed messes and guest houses.

I also happened to visit a Generals Delhi residence I was floored.

Messes are a different kettle of fish. It is maintained at unit/ Corps expense.

I have visited the Vice Chief's residence. Hardly fantastic.

No, DK I.

Visit Gen Wairrach's house (his father was also a General) and you will be more floored. His house is fantastic and it is decorated with his own artefacts and furniture that he has collected over the years with his own money. His wife has great taste. Savour her snacks which she prepares herself with her own money and you will think you are in Europe. And if you are a Sardar, try her makki roti hor saag and you will drift straight to the pind as if sitting on the manji and hearing Jagjit Singh singing soulful Punjabi songs.

He was a junior to me and my cousin and I visited him in Jammu, My cousin, who is rich himself and a Delhiwallah, was totally floored. I had to tell him it was Warraich's own decoration. He is a Naval Officer' son and he understood what is class and what is not.

Pajji class does not come with money or Govt accommodation or perks.

Check it with this 'class' which is furnished with great money that is not one's own

Great life, But the residence, classy in architecture would still be a 'ghatal' (cow shed)

Remember, the Army teaches one to live like an officer. That makes us apart from those who want their fortunes in the bank accounts and in the bargain envious by others.

I live in Calcutta in a one floor house or banglow as some would mispronounce 'bungalow'.

I have a garden. Image a garden in Calcutta!

My father was never comfortable with flat being 'urban slums'.

So, some may say we are stupid or very rich.

None of it is correct.

The Army makes one love open spaces and not get into each others' hair.

Comfortable living? Right! Even though selling the land to a promoter and having a great killing is not attractive given the temperament.