The Greatest Kings in Indian History

Who is the Greatest King in Indian History?

  • Chandragupta Maurya

    Votes: 115 33.7%
  • Ashoka

    Votes: 45 13.2%
  • Raja Chola

    Votes: 34 10.0%
  • Akbar

    Votes: 16 4.7%
  • Sri Krishna Devaraya

    Votes: 18 5.3%
  • Chatrapati Shivaji

    Votes: 58 17.0%
  • Tipu Sultan

    Votes: 9 2.6%
  • Ranjith Singh

    Votes: 10 2.9%
  • Samudra Gupta

    Votes: 11 3.2%
  • Chandragupta Vikramaditya

    Votes: 20 5.9%
  • Harsha

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • Kanishka

    Votes: 4 1.2%

  • Total voters
    341

pmaitra

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Wow, this thread is turning into a character assassination of Chanakya on the unsupported premise that he supported a 'Kshatriya' against a 'low born' because he was casteist. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Those who have at all read the Arthashastra, should know very well that it is clearly mentioned that Aryan society was divided into four varnas. The author (Chanakya/Kautilya) never mentioned caste.

Other than that, for those that are trying to claim that Chandragupta has Kshatriya lineage, it is news for me that peacock tamers could be Kshatriyas.

In short, speculation, illogical reasoning and non sequiturs; too much, too many.
 
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S.A.T.A

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You have done it more articulately and better than I could have said.

Question arises in me, what if Chandragupta never came into power, and the Nanda's carried forward? Would that have changed the course of lower caste in India. It is quite apparent that Chankaya was a Casteist and Chandragupta his pawn. So the greatest of a king and his crooked prime minister goes for a toss, the moment he adheres to a oppressive regime as casteism and tries his best to be the proponent of this scourge.
A hypothetical question will only result in a hypothetical answer,which will not always conform to facts or possibility.If traditional records are to be believed Mahapadma Nanda ruled for the most part of the period that is traditionally ascribed to the Nava Nandas,which would be in excess of eight decades.If we set aside all controversies regarding his own origins for the moment and believe the traditional account that he was the son of a shudra barber,did his long reign do the Shudras any good.The nine Nandas who followed Mahapadma were generally regarded to be incompetent,which is often cited to explain the quick succession of Nine nanda rulers,so even if the nandas hypothetically had survived the maurya-Kautilya scare would not have brought joy to the Shudras.In all probability they would have consecrated some ceremony like the Hiranyagarbha and secured a new status as Kshatriyas.

The fact that Nandas were toppled as quickly as they were indicates that its difficult to against socio-cultural tides of the time,if it did then the society would come with a remedy to restore the status quo.what you call now an oppressive system was at the time considered an ideal social order that helped mobilize the society,nobody was about let a well functioning system to be derailed.
 

Adux

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Yes the whole peacock tamers theory is not conjuncture at all, while all others are.
 

Rahul M

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To just make it simple the caste system was instituitionalised untill the time our constitution did not recognise it and declared all to be equal.
that's a rather wishy washy comment, there was no pan India authority to enforce one particular form of institutionalization.
contrary to popular perception fueled by JNU historians, the only pan India code of law we know of has no such discrimination against people of so called lower castes. keeping in mind that arthashastra strongly influenced rulers in India for a thousand or more years after it was written, the extent of the supposed institutionalized bias can be called into question.

in case of criminal law it makes no distinction between castes barring a handful of cases. in places where such distinction exists, there is no consistent discrimination against any caste.
let's take one example, the offence of selling an arya (all 4 castes) minor into slavery. only a man in debt could mortgage himself to bonded labour till he repaid his debts, his wife and children (if not minors) could join him if they so wanted. otherwise, they would stay free. an arya minor could not be used as a slave under any circumstance.

brahmins were to be fined for selling a brahmin minor but put to death if the minor was a kshatriya, vaishya or shudra.
the same offence for a shudra carried the lowest stipulated fine with the amount of fine increasing for vaishyas and still higher for kshatriyas and brahmins.
on the other hand of the scale, for rape of a brahmin woman a sudra was to be put to death but a brahmin were to be only fined with progressively higher fines for kshatriyas and vaishyas.

clearly, while it was not equal rights for all by our modern sensibilities it wasn't exactly ruthless exploitation of lower castes either, as the modern narrative runs. 100 years from now people will question the equality of rights in today's India pointing to the caste reservations. but they would be wrong to do so. they do not live in our times and can't know our compulsions.

likewise, we would be wrong to question the concept of rights in a world which was quite different from the one we live in. they enacted and followed equality and human rights as they saw fit, some of which were superior to our modern concepts. the so called higher castes were considered more educated and expected to act the part. higher the caste more severely were they punished for certain crimes. offences by so called lower castes were often treated leniently since it was assumed they didn't have the same level of education.

for nearly all other criminal cases, punishments were same irrespective of caste. distinctions again crop up when it comes to personal law. reminds you of today's India with its various personal laws ? ;)

In the ancient and medieval kingdoms no matter how benevolent King was, the institutionalised caste system was bad.
it surely was bad but probably not as bad as it is made out to be, until the late middle ages. certainly not any worse than social systems that existed in rest of the world.
Compared to that age today's India is far better. So coming back to the main point we are arguing over here today's India as a republic is a greater moment in the History of our civilization than any time before.do you agree?
yes, a resounding yes, primarily because of democracy. but there is still a long way to go. I dream of an India where a person's caste, religion or region has no bearing on his worth. our best history is hopefully in our future. but we are never going to reach that point if people continue to be divisive about caste or religion, as some in this thread have been with their "evil brahmins" or "evil muslims" rant. Indians need to think of themselves as Indians, not as this caste or that religion.

Let me tell you about my caste, we ruled the most fertile region in TN before the rise of the Cholas. We were rivals of the Cholas.In that age we had the status of Kshatriyas. All that untill the Cholas king defeated us and the caste lost its high status. Throughout history there were many invasions, new rulers, more oppression and finally in the 20th century the Brits classified us as Backwards.

So what I mean to say here is a caste being high or low is not just because of chosen occupation but something that was forced upon them by those who dominated them.And this oppression was justified by the evil system of caste and perpetuated by a society that accepted it as normal.
I think you missed a few turns in that analysis. even if the cholan kings defeated your powerful ancestor, they did not come back to oppress each and every subsequent generation right up to the british era, since they themselves lost power by the 13th century. the caste of your ancestors would have been determined by what profession they were forced to take up given their reduced circumstances. choice of profession was not always a happy one, many times it would have been forced by social circumstances and economic situation. is that so different from what we have today ? how many clerks are there who would have rather be engineers ? we are always forced to make choices we would rather not.
 

Adux

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A hypothetical question will only result in a hypothetical answer,which will not always conform to facts or possibility.If traditional records are to be believed Mahapadma Nanda ruled for the most part of the period that is traditionally ascribed to the Nava Nandas,which would be in excess of eight decades.If we set aside all controversies regarding his own origins for the moment and believe the traditional account that he was the son of a shudra barber,did his long reign do the Shudras any good.The nine Nandas who followed Mahapadma were generally regarded to be incompetent,which is often cited to explain the quick succession of Nine nanda rulers,so even if the nandas hypothetically had survived the maurya-Kautilya scare would not have brought joy to the Shudras.In all probability they would have consecrated some ceremony like the Hiranyagarbha and secured a new status as Kshatriyas.

The fact that Nandas were toppled as quickly as they were indicates that its difficult to against socio-cultural tides of the time,if it did then the society would come with a remedy to restore the status quo.what you call now an oppressive system was at the time considered an ideal social order that helped mobilize the society,nobody was about let a well functioning system to be derailed.
It was a good social order all right, people higher up had a great time for 2000 or more years.Never again.
 

S.A.T.A

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It was a good social order all right, people higher up had a great time for 2000 or more years.Never again.
You can never predict the future,we the upper caste perhaps are merely biding our time............Never say never again !
 

Singh

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You can never predict the future,we the upper caste perhaps are merely biding our time............Never say never again !
pretty sure the kshatriyas don't need those pesky brahmins anymore !
 

Adux

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You can never predict the future,we the upper caste perhaps are merely biding our time............Never say never again !
Well good luck with that then, the upper caste and their policies have ensured, that Malayali Hindu's have converted enmasse to Islam and Christainity, bring the total Hindu population % down to 40-45% of the total population. So, what are you waiting for, 10% of the population?

Anyways, your sarcasm is quite entertaining. At the same time, your joke is not really funny. The sheer number of murder, rape, loot and subjugation that has happened. Its like telling a Holocaust survivor, dont say 'never again', because it will happen again, another Hitler ready to pop up. Not at all funny, nairsaab. not at all. You wonder why Hindu's dont stand together.
 
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Rahul M

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Wow, this thread is turning into a character assassination of Chanakya on the unsupported premise that he supported a 'Kshatriya' against a 'low born' because he was casteist. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Those who have at all read the Arthashastra, should know very well that it is clearly mentioned that Aryan society was divided into four varnas. The author (Chanakya/Kautilya) never mentioned caste.

Other than that, for those that are trying to claim that Chandragupta has Kshatriya lineage, it is news for me that peacock tamers could be Kshatriyas.

In one word, speculation, illogical reasoning and non sequiturs; too much, too many.
we are treated to wikipedia articles as proof, with large red letters and all. which articles in turn quote casteists like RK mookherji. the other source cited for chanakya's supposed comment from arthashastra about shudra rule says nothing of the kind !

I have a copy of the arthashastra in front of me.
 

S.A.T.A

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You're joking right ?
pretty sure the kshatriyas don't need those pesky brahmins anymore !
Well good luck with that then, the upper caste and their policies have ensured, that Malayali Hindu's have converted enmasse to Islam and Christainity, bring the total Hindu population % down to 40-45% of the total population. So, what are you waiting for, 10% of the population?

Anyways, your sarcasm is quite entertaining.
You folks are supposed to take that in a lighter vein,may be i didn't add the 'LOL'
 

Param

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that's a rather wishy washy comment, there was no pan India authority to enforce one particular form of institutionalization.
contrary to popular perception fueled by JNU historians, the only pan India code of law we know of has no such discrimination against people of so called lower castes. keeping in mind that arthashastra strongly influenced rulers in India for a thousand or more years after it was written, the extent of the supposed institutionalized bias can be called into question.

in case of criminal law it makes no distinction between castes barring a handful of cases. in places where such distinction exists, there is no consistent discrimination against any caste.
let's take one example, the offence of selling an arya (all 4 castes) minor into slavery. only a man in debt could mortgage himself to bonded labour till he repaid his debts, his wife and children (if not minors) could join him if they so wanted. otherwise, they would stay free. an arya minor could not be used as a slave under any circumstance.

brahmins were to be fined for selling a brahmin minor but put to death if the minor was a kshatriya, vaishya or shudra.
the same offence for a shudra carried the lowest stipulated fine with the amount of fine increasing for vaishyas and still higher for kshatriyas and brahmins.
on the other hand of the scale, for rape of a brahmin woman a sudra was to be put to death but a brahmin were to be only fined with progressively higher fines for kshatriyas and vaishyas.

clearly, while it was not equal rights for all by our modern sensibilities it wasn't exactly ruthless exploitation of lower castes either, as the modern narrative runs. 100 years from now people will question the equality of rights in today's India pointing to the caste reservations. but they would be wrong to do so. they do not live in our times and can't know our compulsions.

likewise, we would be wrong to question the concept of rights in a world which was quite different from the one we live in. they enacted and followed equality and human rights as they saw fit, some of which were superior to our modern concepts. the so called higher castes were considered more educated and expected to act the part. higher the caste more severely were they punished for certain crimes. offences by so called lower castes were often treated leniently since it was assumed they didn't have the same level of education.

for nearly all other criminal cases, punishments were same irrespective of caste. distinctions again crop up when it comes to personal law. reminds you of today's India with its various personal laws ? ;)

it surely was bad but probably not as bad as it is made out to be, until the late middle ages. certainly not any worse than social systems that existed in rest of the world.

yes, a resounding yes, primarily because of democracy. but there is still a long way to go. I dream of an India where a person's caste, religion or region has no bearing on his worth. our best history is hopefully in our future. but we are never going to reach that point if people continue to be divisive about caste or religion, as some in this thread have been with their "evil brahmins" or "evil muslims" rant. Indians need to think of themselves as Indians, not as this caste or that religion.


I think you missed a few turns in that analysis. even if the cholan kings defeated your powerful ancestor, they did not come back to oppress each and every subsequent generation right up to the british era, since they themselves lost power by the 13th century. the caste of your ancestors would have been determined by what profession they were forced to take up given their reduced circumstances. choice of profession was not always a happy one, many times it would have been forced by social circumstances and economic situation. is that so different from what we have today ? how many clerks are there who would have rather be engineers ? we are always forced to make choices we would rather not.
Mister, I do not know how much you know about caste oppressing but downplaying it is shocking to me.My grandparents experienced casteist discrimination even post independence despite being from a powerful obc caste.And this at a time when we had legislation nullifying caste based discrimination.

There is no point in downplaying the evils of the caste system.

The worst caste disrimination happened in Kerala. Any malayali here would know about it. And it was not just a few hundred years ago but as late as the beginning of the 20th century. Have you heard about the upper cloth movement? have you heard about Vaikkom?

As for the Cholas, I never said that they oppressed us and were responsible for our status in the 20th century.To quote my words_
Throughout history there were many invasions, new rulers, more oppression and finally in the 20th century the Brits classified us as Backwards.
I was referring to the various invasions throughout History until the 19th century after the fall of the Cholas. Infact the caste that I belong to were soldiers & commanders in the Chola army. Anyway I'm bewildered that my post has been misunderstood by some.

And the point I was making when taking about my caste was that a caste being higher or lower is not just about chosen occupation but actual power and dominance in society that does not always depend on choice.

PS: Hell with those who call all the people of any caste evil. My best friend as a kid was a Brahmin and so is my Father's best friend.
 
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Adux

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we are treated to wikipedia articles as proof,
Ya, Wikipedia after all isnt sourced right.
with large red letters and all. which articles in turn quote casteists like RK mookherji.
Yes , it was the idea of the casteist to make themselves look bad. A very good character assassination of RKM

the other source cited for chanakya's supposed comment from arthashastra about shudra rule says nothing of the kind !
Really, there is a whole lot of sources which says otherwise, So Purana's, Buddhist text, Chankaya himself wouldnt do for you.... now aint that a Kundi chori

I have a copy of the arthashastra in front of me
What good would that do us, keep it tight in your little geeky hands.
 

Singh

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@adux no need to bring in other boards, or to make ad hominem comments. If you can't keep emotions out, don't respond.
 

Param

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we are treated to wikipedia articles as proof, with large red letters and all. which articles in turn quote casteists like RK mookherji. the other source cited for chanakya's supposed comment from arthashastra about shudra rule says nothing of the kind !

I have a copy of the arthashastra in front of me.
Sir leave the Arthashastra, Its a book. The real word is different. It does not exactly follow bookish rules. Caste oppression was real and cruel, no matter how much some people deny it.
 

pmaitra

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we are treated to wikipedia articles as proof, with large red letters and all. which articles in turn quote casteists like RK mookherji. the other source cited for chanakya's supposed comment from arthashastra about shudra rule says nothing of the kind !

I have a copy of the arthashastra in front of me.
Well said. Unfortunately, people like to comment on historical records through the lens of their own primed bias. In another thread, I had explained the etymological roots of the term Kshatriya.

Kshetra - territory.
Kshatriya - caretaker or protector of territory.
Satrapi (Greek) - same as above, but specifically used as a governor or military commander.

Hence, Kshatriya includes soldiers, but also those who are not soldiers but are in charge of protecting and taking care of the territory, including governors and administrators.
If one were to go by this, even the Nanda King was a Kshatriya, but ceased to be one post his defeat and Chandragupta, upon assuming power, inevitably become a Kshatriya.

Now, if one were to write historical records in those times, he would use the term Kshatriya as a varna, while present day historians, while reading and translating those records, would interpret it as a caste and add their own conclusions that 'Chandragupta had Kshatriya lineage.'

Just like knowledge can be transferred, so can ignorance.
 

Adux

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You folks are supposed to take that in a lighter vein,may be i didn't add the 'LOL'
Not really funny dude, my great great grandfather was the Admiral of Travncore, under Vellu Thampi Dalwa. Yet the atrocities my own family has gone through, I am not going to take it in a lighter vein, especially unlike the jews, we havent got our justice or closure.
 

Adux

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@adux no need to bring in other boards, or to make ad hominem comments. If you can't keep emotions out, don't respond.
Quite hard, unlike Yusuf I dont have infinite patience for people who make light of my people's sufferings. If some are going to be politically incorrect about my people's suffering's then expect the same back.
 

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