The End of the Chinese Dream

[redragon]

As far as development goes, China's growth rate is just on par of Japan in term of growth rate after second world war to end 1980s. The Chinese growth is not a miracle, but result of hard working Chinese labors and countless entrepreneurs, not CCP. There is just no way to go any worse than Mao's time, if you have nothing, you can not be poorer than owning nothing.

Yeah, right, when China was back ward and beaten up, it was because of corrupted Qin Dynasty or GMD, When China is getting better, it was all because of people, nothing to do with Government. Very interesting logic you are applying here

 

[kickok1975]

Who is dictating here? So far I am not the one who call other people brainwashed just because I disagree with them. Neither am I the.one who demands others to get out of this forum for expressing their own opinions.

You, as a common Chinese can express your resentment against CPC; I, as a common Chinese, can also express my affection for CPC.

Your comment sounds as if only resentment against CPC could be counted as OPINIONS.

You are just as pathetic as the Indians.

Nimo-cn, if you don't have respect to Indian people you should never be here in the first place. This is not the forum for people like you who just want to come here to showcase how great China is and never accept criticism

 

[kickok1975]

You are brainwashed, you thought you are the only one has access to other sources of information, as a matter of fact, judging from your past posts, I found your vision and knowledges are really limited, and you have the tendency to block the information you don't want to accept to reach you.

redragon, I'm sure my knowledge is limited.Judeged by your ideology maybe even more so. But I'm open mind to learn more because we can never learn enough. I hope you also realize and face your limitation.

 

[mylegend]

Yeah, right, when China was back ward and beaten up, it was because of corrupted Qin Dynasty or GMD, When China is getting better, it was all because of people, nothing to do with Government. Very interesting logic you are applying here

Just look at Republic of China after Chinese civil war, it explains everything, there GDP per capital is at least 8 times of mainland counterpart. Government plays a important role in the devolopment, but why didn't the reform start in 1957 before the start of Great Leap Forward? The three year of hardship that kill 30 million people is on par of 8 years of 抗日战争 that also kill 30 millions people. If China were reformed back than, we will not be in the situation we are right, United State would love to see we switch side, just as US president Nixon visit in the 1970s indicates. The main enemy of US is not China, but Soviet Union, if China were to adopt Capitalism in 1957, everything will be different.

 

[mylegend]

Yeah, right, when China was back ward and beaten up, it was because of corrupted Qin Dynasty or GMD, When China is getting better, it was all because of people, nothing to do with Government. Very interesting logic you are applying here

CCP is also the party that backstab the GMD's army when they are countering Japanese. CCP does almost nothing except for 百团大战，in the second world war. Even CCP admit that they are not the 抗日主力. Before the Japanese invasion, China's GDP is actually much higher than Japan, its industrial size is about half of Japan because of 黄金十年， it is funny that China have to surpass Japan after 70 years. Anyway, that is not the core of the question, Japan afraid within few years they are the one behind, so they decide to attack first. After the fall of all coastal provinces, GMD lose quite amount of war potential(most industries are in coastal provinces). If you argue GMD does nothing in the war, you should study history again.

 

[Tianshan]

lots of anti-ccp people here.

myself, i will support them as long as they continue to improve the average living standard.

the modern ccp is not the same as the old ccp. they made mistakes in the past... but i'm more interested in their current performance.

 

[Ray]

So, it is long live the CCP?

And why not?

Can the Chinese forget the following?

Chen Boda's 'Four Greats', Mao as the great teacher, the great leader, the great (or supreme) commander, and the great helmsman.

Or the song, song, "Sailing the seas depends on the helmsman, waging revolution depends on Mao Zedong Thought",

'Three Loyalties', which called for boundless loyalty to Chairman Mao, loyalty to Mao Zedong Thought and loyalty to Chairman Mao's revolutionary line.

other slogans ('The Four Boundlessness', 'Long Live ...', 'Eternal Life ...').

ources:

Guo Jian, Yongyi Song & Yuan Zhou, Historical Dictionary of the Chinese Cultural Revolution (Lanham, etc.: The Scarecrow Press, Inc., 2006)

Lu Xing, Rethoric of the Chinese Cultural Revolution - The Impact on Chinese Thought, Culture and Communication (Columbia: University of South Carolina Press, 2004)

Helmut Martin, Cult & Canon - The Origins and Development of State Maoism (Armonk, NY, etc.: M.E. Sharpe Inc., 1982)

Melissa Schrift, Biography of a Chairman Mao Badge - The Creation and Mass Consumption of a Personality Cult (New Brunswick, etc.: Rutgers University Press, 2001)

Yan Jiaqi & Gao Gao (translated & edited by D.W.Y. Kwok), Turbulent Decade - A History of the Cultural Revolution (Honolulu: University of Hawai'i Press 1996)

 

[Armand2REP]

Are you really dumb enough to drink tap water... even after boiling it? It is so filthy I feel grimy after a shower. I have the guy deliver to my water cooler before I ever drink shyte out of the tap.


There are many dorms without running water. There are 100,000 protests a year over unpaid wages, 46% polled said factories owed them back pay. It is clear they are not paying. You can walk to work somewhere else and not get paid there too. Their life of slave labour sucks and they don't even have clean air to breath or clean water to drink. They spend a months wages just trying to get back home. They have no houkou so they have no rights to services either. It is better to be an Indian farmer with a small plot of land than one of these migrant slaves.

Many water are Poluted, but the drink water is not. You can not drink tap water in China, but it is clean after it is cook. People have running water. About the labor, room is mostly free, board is not. The wage is mostly determine by efficiency, so you get pay for every finished product. Most people need to work for 6 days a week and 10-12 hrs a day to get that wage of $300-$400. If you do not pay wages, you go to jail. Well, even if you don't pay after government intervene. There are thousands of textile factory in Dongguan alone, you can just walk a few block and work some where else. I understand the situation is not ideal, but labors are not slave. Their life are tough, but they can walk away with at least $250 a month in most of situation after deducting board fee.

You can visit the factory yourself to make a judgement. Major US firms have strict policy, GAP for example, inspect factories oversea to make sure labor are paid, factories are clean, and no child labor.

 

[Ray]

I can't believe that is from China!

All these days I only saw the glittering aspects that was being presented by the Chinese posters as very common place in China!!!!!

 

[Ray]

Is this China?

It says that the rural people live on less that 31 cents!

This video is an eyeopener!

Maybe some Chinese poster could explain this video.

 

[Tianshan]

Is this China?

It says that the rural people live on less that 31 cents!

This video is an eyeopener!

Maybe some Chinese poster could explain this video.

what is there to explain?

that's how economics works. some people will get rich first, and many will be left behind.

this has been true of every economy in the world during the less developed stages. and even the fully developed economies like the usa have enormous income disparity.

 

[Ray]

what is there to explain?

that's how economics works. some people will get rich first, and many will be left behind.

this has been true of every economy in the world during the less developed stages. and even the fully developed economies like the usa have enormous income disparity.

Actually, yes there is some explanation that could help.

Till now, we were told that all thing nice and beautiful is commonplace in China and some ridiculed that India was a slum with people living below $2 (even on this thread)

How come, we see such horrors in beautiful, resurgent China, where CCP has lived all from poverty where the housing is shocking, filthy and there are beggars and people surviving on less that 31 cents!!

Either these footages of the videos are wrong, or those who have showcased China as a paradise are but the 50 cents army, which too has been forcefully denied by the Chinese posters as being true!

In short, those of us who have not been to China or have had the time to observe China in details feel a bit let down that 50 centers have been giving us a wrong picture of China, if indeed these videos are true!

 

[Tianshan]

How come, we see such horrors in beautiful, resurgent China, where CCP has lived all from poverty where the housing is shocking, filthy and there are beggars and people surviving on less that 31 cents!!

here is your problem. you are reading things that do not exist... no one has said that the ccp has lifted ALL people out of poverty.

that is completely illogical, even switzerland has not done that.

 

[Ray]

You are right.

That is what I too thought that no country could be a Paradise.

However, in the many forums that I have visited and been a member, I found that after the Olympic Flag being taken around the world problem, there has been an surfeit of Chinese posters in all forums, showcasing China, its marvels, its rising like the Phoenix, and how it is a land of milk and honey and poverty removed, its economy galloping into the sun and all that.

I must admit such a barrage, of what now I realise with this videos above, as pure propaganda and agenda driven, did give a different impression that China indeed was the Pole Star of the future!

That is why I thought maybe one could have a Chinese poster explain the causes for such disparity and its effect on the population.

I am well aware that the Chinese governance will continue its way and I wish them well. But where is the reality and where is the fantasy is what I find is important for all to know so that one understands China without inputs from foreign sources as the sole guide.

 

[Tianshan]

Either these footages of the videos are wrong, or those who have showcased China as a paradise are but the 50 cents army, which too has been forcefully denied by the Chinese posters as being true!

However, in the many forums that I have visited and been a member, I found that after the Olympic Flag being taken around the world problem, there has been an surfeit of Chinese posters in all forums, showcasing China, its marvels, its rising like the Phoenix, and how it is a land of milk and honey and poverty removed, its economy galloping into the sun and all that.

I must admit such a barrage, of what now I realise with this videos above, as pure propaganda and agenda driven, did give a different impression that China indeed was the Pole Star of the future!

if true, then they are not 50 cent party.

the job of 50 cent party is to increase support for ccp within china, not outside china. whether or not foreigners like ccp or not is irrelevent... in fact if foreigners criticize ccp it is actually helpful because chinese people will be more likely to defend them.

what you seem to have come across is ultra-nationalistic individuals, and i don't know why you would believe them based on word of mouth without checking the facts yourself.

it is simply illogical that any country has lifted ALL their people out of poverty, i don't know why anyone would believe that.

 

[Virendra]

this has been true of every economy in the world during the less developed stages. and even the fully developed economies like the usa have enormous income disparity.

Disparity is not the point of debate here. It is omnipresent, we all know that.
But there is a huge difference between the disparity at 3000$ - 1000$ levels and the one at 1000$ - 1$ levels.
The latter shows the existence of poverty. The of late typical Chinese boasting would be reasonable when the disparity levels at China reflect the former.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[SpArK]

In China, rising religiosity among Party cadres brings warning



On Christmas Eve, some of Beijing's wealthiest and most well-connected residents headed to a sprawling villa on the city's outskirts.A faux European-style mansion, which sits on an expansive property hidden from public view by high walls and tight security, on Saturday evening played host to a gathering of Communist Party officials and businessmen.


Social networking, rather than the festive spirit, may have been the real purpose of the grand Christmas celebration; it was, however, precisely the kind of event that a senior Communist Party official hit out at this week in an unusual article that chastised his colleagues for taking part in any activities with "religious" hues.


Chinese government officials gathering to celebrate Christmas in such lavish style would have been unheard of in Mao's China.But as the Communist Party of China (CPC) has loosened its attitude towards religion, allowing the setting up of State-sanctioned churches and Buddhist temples in the three decades since Deng Xiaoping's reforms, some of its more than 80 million members have also followed suit.One prominent Buddhist temple in Beijing even counts among its biggest donors CPC officials, who make secretive evening prayer visits at the end of a day's work, one monk told The Hindu.



This week, a top CPC official took aim at this trend, slamming the "growing occurrences of CPC members participating in religious activities".Some of them, he complained, went as far as "establishing close contacts with religious figures and some members becoming de facto religious believers".The official was Zhu Weiqun, who is an executive vice minister of CPC Central Committee's United Front Work Department, the highest party body responsible for religious affairs. Mr. Zhu is also the official tasked with supervising religious issues in Tibet, and he represents the CPC in its on-going talks with the Dalai Lama.


In an unusually candid article in this month's issue of Qiushi (Seeking Truth), the CPC Central Committee's official journal circulated among party members, Mr. Zhu warned that the party would suffer "pernicious" consequences if members were allowed to believe in religion."Party organisations will be greatly weakened in the fight against separatism, as hostile forces home and abroad are doing what they can to use religion for their separatist activities," he wrote.:shocked:


He revealed some CPC members had even called for the official ban on cadres believing in religion to be lifted."If the Party lifts the ban as some people suggest," he warned, "it can hardly see the promised benefits and will instead suffer obvious pernicious consequences."

​

IDEOLOGICAL MOORINGS

Mr. Zhu's message has sparked debate among the CPC's members, and come in for criticism particularly among younger and more liberal cadres who say the party has, in any case, shed much of its older ideological moorings as it has evolved. This week, a group of younger cadres debated Mr. Zhu's article at a gathering in a university in north-western Beijing.

One CPC youth member said the party "should not interfere with members' beliefs." "Beliefs are a spiritual support to the people," he said. Others disagreed. "If every member has his own belief," warned one, "then there will be chaos within the party. In order to maintain stability, we cannot have religious beliefs."Since the Chinese Constitution allows for freedom of religious belief, some CPC members have said the party's ban on religion is unconstitutional.

The measures are particularly unpopular in ethnic minority areas such as Tibet and Muslim-majority Xinjiang, where officials are explicitly warned that they will lose their jobs if they hold religious beliefs. In Xinjiang, Uighur Muslim government officials are neither allowed to pray in mosques nor undertake fasts during the holy month of Ramadan.Mr. Zhu, in the article, said freedoms for citizens need not apply for CPC members.

"When a citizen voluntarily joins in the CPC," he said, "he or she accepts the Marxist dialectical materialism view of the world and has the right to believe in no religion. It has to be clear-cut that people who are not CPC members have freedom of religious belief, and CPC members shall not believe in religion."

The CPC would be divided "ideologically and theoretically" if members were allowed to believe in religion, he cautioned. It was "not accidental", he added, that Party committees in Tibet and Muslim-majority Xinjiang where "anti-secession struggles were most acute" had taken "a clear-cut stand that Party members shall not believe in religion."​

 

[BackToEast]

A strong and booming private sector means capitalism and capitalist will become the dominant force in China. It will be getting so strong that it will challenge the current protocol where the CCP government and its puppy state owned companies and banks controls virtually all national resources, in which government officials and their affiliates dictate who can get what and who can get preferable treatment.
The rising class of private business entrepreneur will demand a fair play and a free market where competition is the main driving force instead of authoritarian orders. Chinese people will also demand a country ruled by law instead of a country ruled by a handful CCP Elite members. It will be the beginning of modern, democratic China and the end of a retrogressive, oppressive regime.

Only this time, I agree with you.

 

[AprilLyrics]

well,CCP do make mistakes.

as someone said,if KMT took control of mainland in 1949,things would have been different.but the history cannot be changed.

so what can we do?

maybe we can judge it from a different side:

we compare NOW and 20 years ago,then compare Reform and Opening-up(1978-now)and The Great Cultural Revolution(1966-1976),and then compare mainland and taiwan(1970s,and now).

we would see,CCP is reforming itself.i am not supporting CCP,i just try to be objective.this party is and old party,even founded earlier than KMT. it is trying to adapt the change of the world.All party,like human and animal and sth.,they r all trying to adapt the world and exist.CCP dont want to be abandoned by people.and thats why they reformed itself,and try to make people live better.and i think they really realized that pressure.See,EX Prime Minister Zhu Rongji worked for Corruption problem(腐败问题);President Hu and PM Wen worked for Agriculture problem(三农问题);Now it comes to the house problem（住房问题）.

besides,during the recent 10 years,we can feel International status of china is improving.one glimpse of that:Soooooooooo many countries care about china than before....

about 1970s taiwan,KMT did better than CCP,even now on some aspects.it is more experienced to be a party of modern world,especially on Electoral politics.however as all the reasons we can see,KMT is becoming a small regional party.even so,i am looking forward that one day it can compete with CCP on china mainland.but absolutely not now,it is not the time.i dont want my country changing that rapidly.i need a stable life.

there also maybe some mistakes CCP made now,but i can see this party's Sincerity from its leaders.and our country is heading for better places,at least,the recent 10 years it does.

So what can we expect now? a huge change like Soviet Union in 1989? i think no one in china want that. all people want a stable life and better life.CCP is doing this,at least frow what CCP said,and did in recent 10 years.

after all,if i was living in the era of The Great Cultural Revolution(1966-1976),a china falling behind the world,maybe i would chose KMT and their Capitalism.but i am not. i live in 2011,21st century china,a rising china(at least the GDP,but not only the GDP,as we know).i would like live in this china.

 

[ice berg]

Disparity is not the point of debate here. It is omnipresent, we all know that.
But there is a huge difference between the disparity at 3000$ - 1000$ levels and the one at 1000$ - 1$ levels.
The latter shows the existence of poverty. The of late typical Chinese boasting would be reasonable when the disparity levels at China reflect the former.

Regards,
Virendra

This is strange logic.
If you can only take your pride of your country when the disparity is between 3000 and 1000 $( a number you take from air), then there is hardly any country in this list. Is your country in that list? Does it means you cant take pride in what your country has achieved because of that?

Last time I checked none of the typical chinese "boasting" here said anything about everyone is equal in China. Care to find one such post to back your claim? I am pretty sure every chinese posters here are well aware of the huge disparity between poor and rich in China. The ones claiming China is communist is mostly indian posters. Now tell me how you can be communist and yet has one of the largest disparity between poor and rich in the world?