The Atheism/Agnosticism Thread

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Okay then. How would you define god?

I am Godddddddddddddddddd..................

 

[Kshatriya87]

I am Godddddddddddddddddd..................

Define yourselves then. Or I will put forth a definition approved by all religious people.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Define yourselves then. Or I will put forth a definition approved by all religious people.

Don't make it complicated. You said you have proof that God does not exist. Just go forth and put your arguments.

 

[Kshatriya87]

Don't make it complicated. You said you have proof that God does not exist. Just go forth and put your arguments.

Well, God is defined as "an all powerful, all knowing, forgiving, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniscient being who created us, this world and universe."

Wouldn't you agree? If no, you do not believe in god or else you can give me an alternate definition.

If yes, you are seriously wrong. Here goes the explanation.

Omnipresent - He is present everywhere at all times. That means he sees everything that goes on including the horrible deeds. e.g. rapes. If he is present, why doesn't he stop it? Does he like to watch? Or is he punishing those women for bad deeds? If yes, let me clarify that totally innocent babies are raped too. Babies who have no knowledge of how this world works. Babies who haven't even learned the alphabets yet. How are they to blame? If no, then he doesn't mind if those women are raped?

Here come 3 explanations that I know of by theists. Free will, punishment, forces of evil.

1. Free will: The rapist has free will, but so does the victim. What about her free will? That doesn't count? This proves that free will is not powerful enough, power is what matters. Theists say that humans do bad deeds because god gave them free will. But you can't blame the victim because of that.
2. Punishment: Almost every religion I have read about is contradictory about this. They say that whatever bad deed you do in this world, you will have to pay for it in this life. First, that does not happen always. Second, If you pay for it in this life then why create hell for you to burn for an eternity? Second, if you are punished for it in the next life then again, whats the use of hell? Again, many innocent people are hurt without their fault. There is no explanation for that. What is the reason for them to suffer? None at all.
3. Forces of evil: Theists blame the bad things happening in this world on forces of evil. First of all, I do not believe in a supernatural force of evil just like I do not believe in god. That brings me to the 2nd point.

Omnipotent: If there is such a force, why doesn't god smite him/it. Because he cannot? If not, he is not omnipotent is he? If yes, but he choses not to? Then he is not omnibenevolent. He is malevolent.

All Forgiving: Christians and many other religions believe that god is forgiving and your prayers are answered if you really believe. Think about it. A woman being raped. She is praying. That would probably be the closest she will come to believing god and expect him to save him. But she still ends up being raped. Hence, prayers do not work. Also, god says we are all his children. Why would any father punish/let us get punished by someone through rape/torture/murder etc.? Think of any sane father who would do that to his children.

Omniscient: Means he knows everything about everything. If this is the case, did he not know that sending different prophets at different times in different regions will create different religions which will increase differences between us humans? Did he not know the future? Why did he let such hatred and brutality flourish in his own creation? Is this just a game for him? If no, he is not omniscient. If yes, he is not omnibenevolent / good.

Creator: What is the use of all this universe? How is it helping us or any other thing? I think creating just the milky way or just the solar system would have been enough for humans don't you think? But this point I don't truly thrust as we still need to go a long way in understanding this universe and there might be many hidden boons for us there.

All these explanations point towards 2 and only 2 things.

1. There is no God.
2. If there is some supernatural bring, then he is definitely not good and all this is just a game for him. Most of all, we should stop defining him as we do.

There ends my reasoning. I might have missed something out that I do not recollect now. If you have something to counter, please do. Because I never stop researching and trying to find explanations.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Well, God is defined as "an all powerful, all knowing, forgiving, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniscient being who created us, this world and universe."

Wouldn't you agree? If no, you do not believe in god or else you can give me an alternate definition.

If yes, you are seriously wrong. Here goes the explanation.

Omnipresent - He is present everywhere at all times. That means he sees everything that goes on including the horrible deeds. e.g. rapes. If he is present, why doesn't he stop it? Does he like to watch? Or is he punishing those women for bad deeds? If yes, let me clarify that totally innocent babies are raped too. Babies who have no knowledge of how this world works. Babies who haven't even learned the alphabets yet. How are they to blame? If no, then he doesn't mind if those women are raped?

Here come 3 explanations that I know of by theists. Free will, punishment, forces of evil.

1. Free will: The rapist has free will, but so does the victim. What about her free will? That doesn't count? This proves that free will is not powerful enough, power is what matters. Theists say that humans do bad deeds because god gave them free will. But you can't blame the victim because of that.
2. Punishment: Almost every religion I have read about is contradictory about this. They say that whatever bad deed you do in this world, you will have to pay for it in this life. First, that does not happen always. Second, If you pay for it in this life then why create hell for you to burn for an eternity? Second, if you are punished for it in the next life then again, whats the use of hell? Again, many innocent people are hurt without their fault. There is no explanation for that. What is the reason for them to suffer? None at all.
3. Forces of evil: Theists blame the bad things happening in this world on forces of evil. First of all, I do not believe in a supernatural force of evil just like I do not believe in god. That brings me to the 2nd point.

Omnipotent: If there is such a force, why doesn't god smite him/it. Because he cannot? If not, he is not omnipotent is he? If yes, but he choses not to? Then he is not omnibenevolent. He is malevolent.

All Forgiving: Christians and many other religions believe that god is forgiving and your prayers are answered if you really believe. Think about it. A woman being raped. She is praying. That would probably be the closest she will come to believing god and expect him to save him. But she still ends up being raped. Hence, prayers do not work. Also, god says we are all his children. Why would any father punish/let us get punished by someone through rape/torture/murder etc.? Think of any sane father who would do that to his children.

Omniscient: Means he knows everything about everything. If this is the case, did he not know that sending different prophets at different times in different regions will create different religions which will increase differences between us humans? Did he not know the future? Why did he let such hatred and brutality flourish in his own creation? Is this just a game for him? If no, he is not omniscient. If yes, he is not omnibenevolent / good.

Creator: What is the use of all this universe? How is it helping us or any other thing? I think creating just the milky way or just the solar system would have been enough for humans don't you think? But this point I don't truly thrust as we still need to go a long way in understanding this universe and there might be many hidden boons for us there.

All these explanations point towards 2 and only 2 things.

1. There is no God.
2. If there is some supernatural bring, then he is definitely not good and all this is just a game for him. Most of all, we should stop defining him as we do.

There ends my reasoning. I might have missed something out that I do not recollect now. If you have something to counter, please do. Because I never stop researching and trying to find explanations.

Your entire argument is based on monotheistic creeds.

How about a God who made laws and retired? Just like law of gravitation, there is law of karma. No permanent heaven or hell. Everything goes through cycles and is a complex web of interactions.

Why do you think it is the responsibility of God to interfere in every small incident of life? Modi is PM of the country but he would not come and settle your domestic feuds. If you look at local incidents, you would not take him as PM either. But that does not change the fact he is PM. Similar applies to God.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I personally don't want to offend anybody's belief but believing something without any proof is insane. If not you guys, coming generations will become irreligious obviously in fastly changing world.

 

[Kshatriya87]

Your entire argument is based on monotheistic creeds.

How about a God who made laws and retired? Just like law of gravitation, there is law of karma. No permanent heaven or hell. Everything goes through cycles and is a complex web of interactions.

Why do you think it is the responsibility of God to interfere in every small incident of life? Modi is PM of the country but he would not come and settle your domestic feuds. If you look at local incidents, you would not take him as PM either. But that does not change the fact he is PM. Similar applies to God.

Modi is not god. He is not omnipotent or omnipresent. There is no way these two can be compared. However, the mere fact that a deity can be present everywhere at all times with the power to do everything but choses not to when bad stuff happens says a lot about him I say.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Modi is not god. He is not omnipotent or omnipresent. There is no way these two can be compared. However, the mere fact that a deity can be present everywhere at all times with the power to do everything but choses not to when bad stuff happens says a lot about him I say.

Modi was just an example.

Why do you want God to take action in bad situations? As I said, see him as some Karma rule writer who does not indulge in everyday happenings. Also, good and bad are subjective definitions. Suppose a taxi driver delays you from boarding one of hijacked planes. In the short run, you hate him for that. But in the long run it saved your life.

I do not understand why you want God to be a doer in good/bad situations.

 

[Kshatriya87]

Modi was just an example.

Why do you want God to take action in bad situations? As I said, see him as some Karma rule writer who does not indulge in everyday happenings. Also, good and bad are subjective definitions. Suppose a taxi driver delays you from boarding one of hijacked planes. In the short run, you hate him for that. But in the long run it saved your life.

I do not understand why you want God to be a doer in good/bad situations.

Modi, just an example or not is completely wrong interpretation.

Good/bad being dependent on perspective. Explain to me how a father can leave their children in their worst times. How a father can see their daughters being raped inspite of being capable of doing everything to help.

Explain to me how a raped women is helped in the long run. Also explain to me that how an all powerful being cannot find any other option of helping that human.

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[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Modi, just an example or not is completely wrong interpretation.

Good/bad being dependent on perspective. Explain to me how a father can leave their children in their worst times. How a father can see their daughters being raped inspite of being capable of doing everything to help.

Explain to me how a raped women is helped in the long run. Also explain to me that how an all powerful being cannot find any other option of helping that human.

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You are forcing your specific version of being a helper on God. He does not have to be one.

If you believe in Karmic balance, things can be good/bad in short run but not in long run. Shri Rama killed Vali by arrow from behind and gets killed as Krishna in next life by similar means. Even incarnations of God collect karmic debt and have to repay it.

 

[Kshatriya87]

You are forcing your specific version of being a helper on God. He does not have to be one.

If you believe in Karmic balance, things can be good/bad in short run but not in long run. Shri Rama killed Vali by arrow from behind and gets killed as Krishna in next life by similar means. Even incarnations of God collect karmic debt and have to repay it.

If you are going to repay your debts in the next life, why do some people repay them in the same life? Better yet, why has god made the concept of hell then?

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[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

If you are going to repay your debts in the next life, why do some people repay them in the same life? Better yet, why has god made the concept of hell then?

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There is no heaven/hell in Dharmic religions.

Why should people pay in same or next life? May be they pay some in same life and some in different life. Why do you want everything to happen in same life?

 

[Kshatriya87]

There is no heaven/hell in Dharmic religions.

Why should people pay in same or next life? May be they pay some in same life and some in different life. Why do you want everything to happen in same life?

I do not want anything. It's your religious bibles that are contradictory. They say you will pay for your deeds in the same life and then in some other clause they say you will go to hell and in some other clause say you will be punished in the next life by being born as such and such.

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[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

I do not want anything. It's your religious bibles that are contradictory. They say you will pay for your deeds in the same life and then in some other clause they say you will go to hell and in some other clause say you will be punished in the next life by being born as such and such.

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I do not follow any book. Why should God sort out the political differences present in different creeds?

I think you live in illusionary world where you want your God to be an arbitrage agent between religions. Karmic laws are complex and you are drawing too much causality out of it.

 

[punjab47]

I do not want anything. It's your religious bibles that are contradictory. They say you will pay for your deeds in the same life and then in some other clause they say you will go to hell and in some other clause say you will be punished in the next life by being born as such and such.

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Kindly ask you stop mixing up dharam & abrahamic trash, before you get thrashed in person.

BTW, if you're so keen on civilizational suicide I hear there's a big one going on just west of Turkey. Suggest you move there,

Most of what you 'hate' are just values taught to children through stories in order for society to function.

You're an anarchist and we know how to deal with crypto-jews the world also doesn't work the way you want it to.

One day, you'll grow up

 

[Kshatriya87]

Kindly ask you stop mixing up dharam & abrahamic trash, before you get thrashed in person.

BTW, if you're so keen on civilizational suicide I hear there's a big one going on just west of Turkey. Suggest you move there,

Most of what you 'hate' are just values taught to children through stories in order for society to function.

You're an anarchist and we know how to deal with crypto-jews the world also doesn't work the way you want it to.

One day, you'll grow up

Vow. Thanks for telling me what I hate. Even I'm not sure yet. Can you please enlighten me? What is it that I hate exactly?

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[punjab47]

Vow. Thanks for telling me what I hate. Even I'm not sure yet. Can you please enlighten me? What is it that I hate exactly?

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You hate order, because you're insecure of your manhood. You hate state because you're unsure of yourself.

You hate dharam because you're confused about your future.

 

[Kshatriya87]

You hate order, because you're insecure of your manhood. You hate state because you're unsure of yourself.

You hate dharam because you're confused about your future.

Utterly and completely wrong. Now, from next time when you decide to act psychiatrist.. DON'T.

Order. The fact is that I want order and there is none in this world. My manhood, is pretty satisfactory actually. But no matter what I say on this forum, you won't believe me. I could only prove my life's achievements (regarding my manhood) if I knew you personally. So lets leave it at that. State. Wrong again, because I have a pretty clear picture of my future regarding all aspects of my life.

Would you mind getting back on topic now instead of showing your hatred towards Atheists because your brain is not evolved enough to understand how they think?

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[Kshatriya87]

I do not follow any book. Why should God sort out the political differences present in different creeds?

I think you live in illusionary world where you want your God to be an arbitrage agent between religions. Karmic laws are complex and you are drawing too much causality out of it.

Why are you only referring to karmic laws as per gita instead of all religious books? Aren't all bibles the word of God?

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[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Why are you only referring to karmic laws as per gita instead of all religious books? Aren't all bibles the word of God?

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No. They are political statements of the followers.

But more important than what I consider true God- why do you want reconciliation between different faiths as a way to prove God?