Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Buying more flanker is waste of resource, First IAF have to get its existing flanker in operational reediness, The quantity is more then sufficient for Heavy class fighters considering their cost of operation and maintenance ..

Buying Rafale 10 years back make sense, Now its a waste of resource, The same must be diverted for home grown industry and upgrade existing fighter fleet until 5th gen fighter available both in Light ( Tejas MK2 ++ ), Medium ( AMCA ) and Heavy class ( FGFA ) ..

Buying fighters and War machine is not same as going market and buying vegetables ..
How do you suggest IAF should get to its stated target of 810 planes in 2032; or a better target of 1100 for optimum force level; considering Mig-21, Mig-27, Mig-29 are retired by then? AMCA is an iffy project right now. Nobody knows when AMCA will fly with IAF.
 

sorcerer

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
26,919
Likes
98,471
Country flag
Su-35 super flanker deal signed

Russia And India To Work On 5th-gen Upgrade To Su-35 Fighter

Russia and India have signed an agreement to jointly develop a fifth-generation upgrade of the Su-35 Super Flanker multirole fighter, according to a report published March 8 on Virginia-based military affairs website Defense News.


The fighter will be a fifth-generation fighter like the US Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II, as opposed to the fourth-generation version of the Su-35 over which Russia and China are currently negotiating a deal, reports Want China Times.

The Su-35 Super Flanker will be unable to compete with other "genuine" fifth-generation fighters and China does not need to get caught up in a game of one-upmanship with India and Russia, said an expert cited by China's nationalistic tabloid Global Times.

Fifth-Generation Su-35S

Defense News cited a Russian military insider as stating that Moscow and New Delhi have signed an agreement to design what Russia is calling the fifth-generation version of the Su-35 in India, which will see an Indian variant of the fighter created called the Su-35S. Sergey Chemezov, CEO of Russian state-run tech export corporation Rostec, was cited by the website as saying, "We have been negotiating and have signed the intention protocol for the Su-35"¦Now we are working on designing ideas for this contract and on creating a manufacturing platform for the aircraft of the fifth generation."

The shift from the fourth-generation Su-35, currently in service with the Russian Air Force, to the fifth-generation Su-35S will necessitate a large upgrade. The report in Defense News questioned the ability of the Su-35S to bear comparison with the F-35. An Indian Air Force official said Russia has pitched the Su-35S several times over the last six months, stating that it can replace the Indian Air Force's MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters, set to be retired from service in seven to eight years.

Russia and India have already worked together on the development of a fifth-generation stealth fighter, the PAK FA T-50. The Defense News report suggested that the reason Russia has suddenly announced the development program for the stealth fighter is because they are trying to undercut France following the refusal of Paris to provide Russia with two Mistral-class amphibious assault ships. In 2012, New Delhi decided to buy 126 Dassault Rafale multirole fighters from the French company but they have been unable to reach a final agreement due to the technology transfer involved and the price. A Russian industry source cited in the report said the Su-35S will cost only US$85 million, very competitive when compared with the Rafale, and poses a threat to the deal between France and India. A report in the New Delhi-based Economic Times previously stated that India's air force command considers the Russian fighter and the Rafale to be complementary and that the former does not replace the need for the latter.


China and the Fourth-Generation Su-35

There had previously been a lot of buzz in the media about China becoming the first country to take delivery of an Su-35. According to the previous report on the website, China is set to sign a deal on May 19 to buy 24 Su-35 fighters from Russia. A Russian official has stated that the deal involves the fourth-generation Su-35, not the fifth-generation Su-35S. The official added, however, that China will be the first country in the world to buy the plane.



The Defense News report did not specify the details of the differences between the Su-35 and the Su-35S. However, a Chinese military expert cited by the Global Times stated that the fifth-generation fighter will likely be based on the Su-30MKI that Russia and India developed together and will be equipped with advanced fifth-generation fighter avionics purchased by India, including active electronically scanned array radar, an infrared sensor for longer range targets and a custom tactical data link suited to the needs of the Indian Air Force, along with anti-electrical interference equipment. The source also stated that the fighter likely has limited stealth capabilities, including metal plating on the hood of the cabin and stealth materials coating the air inlets. Stealth capabilities hinge mostly on the exterior design of a fighter, however, he said. The area of the fifth generation F-22 that reflects radar is just 1 square meter and Russian aircraft maker Sukhoi has stated that the area of Su-30 series fighters that reflects radar is around 20 sq m.

As the Su-35S will not involve a total rehaul of the outer structure of the series, it is not possible for the Su-35S to match the stealth capabilities of the F-22. The move to brand the Su-35S a "fifth-generation" fighter, therefore, seems a little more driven by propaganda than reality, according to Global Times. Given that the Su-30MKI went into production in 2002, six years after India and Russia signed the joint development agreement on the aircraft, the Su-35S will likely take a sustained period of time to develop and undergo tests before it can be commissioned or sold.

Can the Fourth- to Fifth-Generation Gap be Bridged?


A Chinese military expert stated that fourth-generation fighters can be upgraded to give them capabilities approaching those of fifth-generation fighters. This is most evident in the area of avionics, if enough investment is made, as with sufficient funds the avionics of the Su-35S could surpass those of the T-50. Through the purchase of fifth-generation directional efflux nozzles with a large thrust to weight ratio, the Su-35S could reach a level of subsonic maneuverability equal to that of the T-50.

In terms of the exterior there is still quite a large gap between fourth- and fifth-generation fighters, however. Especially in terms of supercruise and stealth capability, aspects in which the Su-35S cannot compete with the F-22 or the T-50. The Chinese expert stated that China and India should not bicker over which Su-35 is more advanced, as the Su-35 is simply a complementary aircraft which will play a transient role in China's air fleet. As the development of the Su-35S will also take time, China's domestically developed fifth-generation J-20 stealth fighter will likely already be ready to be commissioned by the time the Su-35S is ready for service.


Read more: http://hindi.sputniknews.com/south_asia/20150312/1013737127.html#ixzz3UBpHExVc
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Can you provide some source rather making tall claims, Not trying to be rude just curious ..

The best figure is cost per hour that factors in initial cost, fuel cost and maintenance cost. What is cost per hour of Rafale compared to other planes? The data that I have seen suggests Rafale cost is higher compared to Su-30MKI.
============

Better start reading AMCA thread ..

Nobody knows when AMCA will fly with IAF.
 

Kay

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,029
Likes
1,354
Country flag
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Why do we need category of MMRCA at all? Why not do with heavy and light fighters?

Do we have any empirical data to suggest that a medium plane will cost less than heavy plane to maintain??

The best figure is cost per hour that factors in initial cost, fuel cost and maintenance cost. What is cost per hour of Rafale compared to other planes? The data that I have seen suggests Rafale cost is higher compared to Su-30MKI.
I guess doing away with MMRCA would need operational doctrinal changes from what the IAF is currently envisioning. I guess the answer would be - "Can it be done? Yes. Is it desirable? No."
As an analogy, we can do with destroyers and corvettes, without frigates - but would it be desirable? I guess not.

Everything else being similar, my guess is you would spend more for a heavy fighter - more fuel consumption, more RAM coating, more inspection, etc. Russian fighter in general have high maintenance costs - as parts have to be replaced and most of the parts come from Russia.
Bulgaria could shift MiG maintenance contract from Russia to Poland – Defence Minister | The Sofia Globe
Maintenance costs of Russian MiG- 29s equal price of new Western fighters - Standart News
India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs

IAF is mostly at fault for low serviceability of MKIs though (less order of parts, etc.). HAL will be doing the maintenance for both MKIs and Rafales, so there would not be significant difference in cost apart form the cost of parts.

Cost per hour takes into account initial cost - which again depends on numbers. We have around 200 MKIs and we are thinking of buying a lot fewer Rafales.

There are other reasons for having the MMRCA - IAF wanted to move away from complete reliance on Russian due to unreliable and uncertainty of parts. Also, western machinery gives them a point of comparison. These are costs which also needed to be taken into account.
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Can you provide some source rather making tall claims, Not trying to be rude just curious ..



============

Better start reading AMCA thread ..
The per hour figure can be calculated easily from publicly available figures about initial cost, and other published figures. There is no mystery to it, Anybody can do it.
How can your AMCA thead tell when AMCA will fly with IAF. It can best be an estimate. Even an estimate requires some milestones to be completed. We used to call these guesstimates in software industry.

No problem with you being rude. I like your attitude.
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

I guess doing away with MMRCA would need operational doctrinal changes from what the IAF is currently envisioning. I guess the answer would be - "Can it be done? Yes. Is it desirable? No."
As an analogy, we can do with destroyers and corvettes, without frigates - but would it be desirable? I guess not.

Everything else being similar, my guess is you would spend more for a heavy fighter - more fuel consumption, more RAM coating, more inspection, etc. Russian fighter in general have high maintenance costs - as parts have to be replaced and most of the parts come from Russia.
Bulgaria could shift MiG maintenance contract from Russia to Poland – Defence Minister | The Sofia Globe
Maintenance costs of Russian MiG- 29s equal price of new Western fighters - Standart News
India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs

IAF is mostly at fault for low serviceability of MKIs though (less order of parts, etc.). HAL will be doing the maintenance for both MKIs and Rafales, so there would not be significant difference in cost apart form the cost of parts.

Cost per hour takes into account initial cost - which again depends on numbers. We have around 200 MKIs and we are thinking of buying a lot fewer Rafales.

There are other reasons for having the MMRCA - IAF wanted to move away from complete reliance on Russian due to unreliable and uncertainty of parts. Also, western machinery gives them a point of comparison. These are costs which also needed to be taken into account.
Can you give a comparison with some other air-force with a similar desire to have this light/medium/heavy mix. Is it simply because IAF wanted a French fighter and French have only Rafale??
What is the actual wartime advantage of a medium fighter over a heavy fighter??
And why Rafale spares would be cheaper when initial cost is higher??
Nobody knows how much of Rafale will be actually built at HAL. Doubts persist that it will be little more than a screw-driver job.
 
Last edited:

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Source Please, Their is no going forward without you giving some amount of proof to back claims since you are making from last few pages ..

The per hour figure can be calculated easily from publicly available figures about initial cost, and other published figures. There is no mystery to it, Anybody can do it.
How can your AMCA thead tell when AMCA will fly with IAF. It can best be an estimate. Even an estimate requires some milestones to be completed. We used to call these guesstimates in software industry.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Kindly read you own posts ..

Su-30 will be augmented by the Super-30 project. The current orders of Su-30 will finish by 2019 and Super-30 will be built thereafter. The current fleet will be upgraded to Super-30 standard in batches.

Sukhoi numbers will definitely grow with time. 20 squadrons of Su-30/Super-30 are quite likely for IAF in future. People must take into consideration huge investment made in the Sukhoi project by India. It makes sense to fully utilize Sukhoi production facilities.

The LCA Tejas will also ramp up in future with one more production line to be established for LCA Tejas Mark II. India is on track to manufacture all IAF fighters within the country in the next few years.
A Mirage-2000 type of upgrade on Su-30 is sheer waste of money.

We shall see if MOD approves such upgrade.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
As their are no other sources besides one, The previous thread is now merged with Mega thread of SU-35 related news and Development ..
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Source Please, Their is no going forward without you giving some amount of proof to back claims since you are making from last few pages ..
Ok I shall try.

According to a Jane's study, the operating cost of the Gripen is $4,700 per hour. The Rafale is thrice as expensive, at $15,000 per hour.
Brazil chooses Gripen over Rafale | Business Standard News

Gripen $3,000 - $4,500 USD
F-16 approximately $5,000 USD
Rafale $16,000 USD
F-22 $19,000-$40,000 USD
F-15C $17,000-$30,000 USD
Eurofighter Typhoon - $14,000 USD
Su-30 - $10,000 USD
list of combat aircraft flight cost per hour
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

@Kunal Biswas,

What other "proof" you want? The fact is that IAF should give Su-30 operating figures; and justify why Rafale is appropriate for it cost-wise.
The problem in India is that there is no public scrutiny of defence spending.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Kay

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,029
Likes
1,354
Country flag
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Can you give a comparison with some other air-force with a similar desire to have this light/medium/heavy mix. Is it simply because IAF wanted a French fighter and French have only Rafale??
What is the actual wartime advantage of a medium fighter over a heavy fighter??
And why Rafale spares would be cheaper when initial cost is higher??
Nobody knows how much of Rafale will be actually built at HAL. Doubts persist that it will be little more than a screw-driver job.
No. The current combination for US and China is Light, Heavy, Strike and Ground Attack(CAS) - No light attack for Russia.
Their strike attack is a modified heavy aircraft.
But both US and China have 2 Fifth Gen planes - medium and heavy - and are expected to maintain light aircraft as well.
In our case, the strike aircraft happens to be the medium one.
All things remaining same, a light/medium/heavy combination makes more sense as the light and medium can be modified for naval use.
Rafales spares won't be cheap but it is still a worthwhile investment because of technology diversification and whatever TOT comes in.
 

Kay

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,029
Likes
1,354
Country flag
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

The problem in India is that there is no public scrutiny of defence spending.
True. Former IAF chief is ambassador to Norway instead of in CBI custody for falsifying Pilatus cost.
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

Rafales spares won't be cheap but it is still a worthwhile investment because of technology diversification and whatever TOT comes in.
What if no worthwhile TOT is offered by the French. Would you still prefer it?
 

Kay

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,029
Likes
1,354
Country flag
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

What if no worthwhile TOT is offered by the French. Would you still prefer it?
Frankly, anything more than the software codes would be generous of the French. Its best not to expect anything more than that.
Buying into the platform would enable us to do better benchmarking for AMCA and FGFA. IAF would expect systems in Tejas similar to SPECTRA. Also, it is reasonable to assume that France will come up with a Distributed Aperture System and HMD similar to F-35 in the future, and we have two options - French and Russian to compare and benchmark the systems, instead of one.
As I said, wasting further time on this is decision is holding back AMCA and other programs. We should go ahead with Rafales and decide on a smaller number which can be negotiated.
 

Kay

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,029
Likes
1,354
Country flag
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

@sgarg
Rafale is a stop-gap plane and should be viewed as such. Any foreign weapon system is always a compromise (if we don't have the current capability to build something similar). We made a mistake de-linking the Kaveri-Snecma JV from the project. Now, what is left is to make the best of a not so good deal and move on.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jatt.Hindustan

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
223
Likes
33
Good, this is 12 vs 14 hardpoint so satisfies mmrca 'bomb truck' req. T50 has 10 6int + 4 vs f22 4 internal +4 I think.

At current exchange, rafale is only 70mil now I think (9bil euro) and euro could drop to .87 from 1.055 by 2017 they said.

So rafale is bit cheaper but also not 4.5g

So we have t50, fgfa, super sukhoi, amca, su35s and tejas mk2 ++

6 5th gen planes. :D
 

thakur_ritesh

Ambassador
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
4,435
Likes
1,733
Re: Sukhoi Su-35S deal edge out Rafale in india?

A compromise solution splitting contractual warranties between France's Dassault Aviation and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) has removed the biggest obstacle to closing the long-delayed sale of 126 Rafale fighters to India.

Dassault chief executive Eric Trappier confirmed in Paris today that the compromise solution makes each company contractually responsible for its own work on the contract, reports Defense Aerospace.
Who thinks of such a clause, or was it specifically included to scuttle or delay the deal at a later date, or may be just one of the many blunderous misgivings of the Indian bureaucracy? People involved need to be penalized for such blunders, no excuses what-so-ever!

And if the price has not changed in Euro, then it's not bad at all since the EUR INR exchange rate hasn't seen much change in the past 2 years, though I doubt, and something not being talked about in Indian circles for obvious reasons, is price adjustment to inflation with each passing year. We need to learn to take our decisions on time, and not keep them pending for long.
 

SajeevJino

Long walk
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
6,017
Likes
3,364
Country flag
Re: Su-35 super flanker deal signed

.

It's already Debunked as Fake News
 

SajeevJino

Long walk
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
6,017
Likes
3,364
Country flag
.



Chinese pilots arrive in Russia for Su-35 training

The arrival of Chinese pilots at a Russian Air Force training center to train to fly the Su-35 fighter indicates that Russia and China have reached a consensus about when the aircraft will be turned over to the PLA Air Force, reports the state-run Global Times.

Beijing and Moscow are likely to sign the final agreement regarding the sale of 24 Su-35 fighters to China on May. 19, according to a report from Zvezda, a television network run by the Russian military. Turning over possession of the Su-35 fighters will begin in 2016. In addition to the aircraft, the engines and missiles designed for the fighter will be provided to China under another deal. China requested Russia to begin the shipment of the engines and missiles ahead of the aircraft.

Since the year of 2012, China signed two major contracts with Russia to purchase advanced weapon systems. The first contract allows China to spend US$1.3 billion to purchase 52 Mi-171 helicopters and 130 AL-31F engines. Russia then provided 10 used Il-76 cargo planes to China under the second contract. China's purchase of Su-35 from Russia is just another product of close military ties between the two nations, according to the report.

Chinese pilots arrive in Russia for Su-35 training|Politics|News|WantChinaTimes.com
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top