Sukhoi Su 30MKI

Hellfire

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The argument that ELM 8222 has interference with radar during operation has no source. I am asking about the backing of such claims made in the previous pages.

Absolutely.

Because one can not post something as an evidence when it does not exist. There is no interference by the SPJ with deployment of Radar.

Had that been the case, the AMRAAMs would have had a definitive firing solution to ensure a kill of a Su-30MKI on 27 Feb 2019.
 

Hellfire

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Ye HAL wale milke hamko pagal bna rhe *** k bache


View attachment 45844

Yes and no.

Yes because they are working the lines 24 hours with overtime to produce an aircraft in 93 odd days as opposed to mandated 36 days to produce the same (if I recollect correctly reading about it)

No because that is true.
 

Frontrunner

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Nope India Bought
100 R-27ER semi-active-radar homing extended-range version

200 R-27 ET infrared-homing extended-range version


R-27 ET are Very Effective Missile its Works on Passive Infrared With OLS-30 is used in conjunction with the helmet mounted sighting system. The OLS-30 is a combined IRST/LR device using a cooled, broad waveband sensor. Detection range is up to 90 km, while the laser ranger is effective to 3.5 km. Targets are displayed on the same LCD display as the radar

Its Makes u Target Enemy Plane by Going Cold




Only Effective counter Measures are (DIRCM) Directional Infrared Counter Measures Which Porkies Lack

Any links for the mentioned type of r27 missiles purchased which u are stating? Only idrw has reported it that also through quoting "close sources"

Why would iaf buy a semi active version of r27 ( which we already had with previous purchase from Ukraine)..in yr 2020.. when russia is offering us active version of r27 ...
On r27 et.. yes it's a good missile when coupled launched with rf missile.. as to confuse enemy's countermeasures.. however still r27 et would need telemetry links from aircraft main radar... As i doubt ols30 has passive ranging capabilities a la Typhoon's pirate IRST.. OLS30 is good for detection however it won't be good enough to provide accurate targeting data.. tho at close range it's laser range finder would provide accurate targeting data for ccms.
 

Hellfire

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Is that source enough for you @vampyrbladez and @mist_consecutive . Again I am saying elta ones mess with the radar so bad that su30 can't use both at the same time. Also something's happen on 27 Feb with avenger 2 radar due to this . :) .

SAP 518 was integral in the original MKI deal.

And no, EL8222 does not mess up the radar.

Perhaps more to do with algorithms and library access for threat identification?
 

WARREN SS

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Any links for the mentioned type of r27 missiles purchased which u are stating? Only idrw has reported it that also through quoting "close sources"
[/QUOTE]
India signs USD700 million deal with Russia for 1,000 additional air-to-air missiles
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi and Dmitry Fediushko, Moscow
- Jane's Defence Weekly


The sources said the R-27R1/ER1 and R-27T1/ET1 variants, which are fitted with semi-active and passive infrared seekers, would arm the IAF’s Sukhoi Su-30MKI and upgraded MiG-29M fighters. Moreover, they said that the R-77 and R-73 AAMs would also be carried by the IAF’s MiG-21 ‘Bison’ fighters.
 

Frontrunner

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Any links for the mentioned type of r27 missiles purchased which u are stating? Only idrw has reported it that also through quoting "close sources"
India signs USD700 million deal with Russia for 1,000 additional air-to-air missiles
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi and Dmitry Fediushko, Moscow
- Jane's Defence Weekly


The sources said the R-27R1/ER1 and R-27T1/ET1 variants, which are fitted with semi-active and passive infrared seekers, would arm the IAF’s Sukhoi Su-30MKI and upgraded MiG-29M fighters. Moreover, they said that the R-77 and R-73 AAMs would also be carried by the IAF’s MiG-21 ‘Bison’ fighters.
[/QUOTE]

Janes is also quoting from "sources"
Here is the idrw article quoting another set of "sources"

While Indian media did not report which variant was ordered by IAF from Russia, but sources close to idrw.org have confirmed that the latest R-27 order was of a newer variant

IAF has placed orders for 400 R-27EA Variant which has the same range of 130km as that of Ukrainian R-27ER1 (130km) missile brought by the IAF in 2012 but the key difference between both the missile is that Russia has Integrated a modified R-77 active radar seeker into R-27EA Variant thus increasing its potential to engage a variety of airborne targets day/night in all weather conditions in the front and rear hemisphere in heavy clutter environments.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/explained-how-r-27...mbo-will-give-iaf-advantage-over-pafs-amraam/

So the two reports are conflicting.. however Now the moot point is why would IAF order a semi active version of r27 when russia is offering them an active seeker version of the same.. semi active AAM with one way datalink is things of past.
 
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WARREN SS

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So the two reports are conflicting.. however Now the moot point is why would IAF order a semi active version of r27 when russia is offering them an active seeker version of the same.. semi active AAM with one way datalink is things of past.
Cost Is big Factor btw SARH and Active radar Homing

Same confusion is in R-77 Why R-77 AE version why not R-77-1
 

Frontrunner

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Cost Is big Factor btw SARH and Active radar Homing

Same confusion is in R-77 Why R-77 AE version why not R-77-1
Costs?? Hell no.. even home grown astra cost 1 million per piece.. nd iaf is adamant to procure it nd it's future iterations for various aircrafts in it's fleet.. nd Russian active seeker missiles aren't that costly compared to say meteors..

As i said SARH AAMs are things of past specially in the realms of modern bvr tactics ... SARH missile are now only relevant for SAMS a la S-400, HQ-16 etc due to it's application of Track via missile...

Noway IAF will go for SARH missile for their frontline fighter jets.. that's also after valuable lessons it learned during feb 2019 dogfights.. where current inventory of r77 nd r27 failed horribly to match with aim120c5 of pakis..

The picture is still vague about type of missiles IAF ordered.. all are quoting sources.. so janes report definitely seems a case of miscommunication among the type of missiles ordered.. iaf will be paying 1500 crores for these missiles nd is directly buying from russia.. not like earlier purchase of cheap urkrainian knock offs..

Idrw report seems more close to reality as it's clearly mentioned that india is purchasing r-77-1 nd r-27 EA with active radar seeker
 

abhay rajput

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Costs?? Hell no.. even home grown astra cost 1 million per piece.. nd iaf is adamant to procure it nd it's future iterations for various aircrafts in it's fleet.. nd Russian active seeker missiles aren't that costly compared to say meteors..

As i said SARH AAMs are things of past specially in the realms of modern bvr tactics ... SARH missile are now only relevant for SAMS a la S-400, HQ-16 etc due to it's application of Track via missile...

Noway IAF will go for SARH missile for their frontline fighter jets.. that's also after valuable lessons it learned during feb 2019 dogfights.. where current inventory of r77 nd r27 failed horribly to match with aim120c5 of pakis..

The picture is still vague about type of missiles IAF ordered.. all are quoting sources.. so janes report definitely seems a case of miscommunication among the type of missiles ordered.. iaf will be paying 1500 crores for these missiles nd is directly buying from russia.. not like earlier purchase of cheap urkrainian knock offs..

Idrw report seems more close to reality as it's clearly mentioned that india is purchasing r-77-1 nd r-27 EA with active radar seeker
And who told you which missiles IAF was carrying. Everybody was talking about only r77. Like how r77 range is short compared to aim120
 

Neptune

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Noway IAF will go for SARH missile for their frontline fighter jets.. that's also after valuable lessons it learned during feb 2019 dogfights.. where current inventory of r77 nd r27 failed horribly to match with aim120c5 of pakis..


This statement can be flipped around and claimed the AIM-120c5 failed since during Balakot PAF didn’t launch any missiles despite Pakistanis claiming they launched aircraft to confront and repel the IAF that day. You are also forgetting or not understand the vast importance PAF AWACS had that day.


The PAF entire plan that day was to try to bait one of the IAF jets into an ambush which I will explain later. The reasons the IAF didn’t launch any missile is simple numerical superiority, kinetic advantage and altitude the PAF had that day. The lone SU-30MKI (Avenger1) was wise enough not to engage any F-16’s because he would have been ambushed by other pairs of F-16s possibly flying too low to be detected. The outcome probably would have been the same even with it was a Rafale that day but as we know it was essentially one SU-30MKI (Avenger1) against 8 F-16’s plus 4 JF-17s just north of Khuiratta, another SU-30 (Avenger2) had to land due to low fuel. The Pakistanis probably waited for Avenger2 to run low on fuel then they launched 24 aircraft.

To break it down, the PAF aircraft that day were operating at higher altitudes and flying at higher airspeeds, thus their missiles had more range. PAF had 4 F-16s at 40,000 feet around Mirpur, these were probably the F-16’s that launched AIM-120s. Then the PAF had 4 more F-16s west of Bhimbar operating as low as 10,000 feet, these were the ones that launched the failed attack on army HQ. Then PAF had 4 JF-17s at 30,000 feet north of Khuiratta. The situation was unfavorable for Avenger1 no matter what he would have done, no matter what what course of action Avenger1 would have taken it would have been bait which would have resulted in an ambush. If Avenger1 decided to go after the F-16s at 40,000 feet, then the F-16 at 10,000 feet or lower could have surprised Avenger1 by flying low, fast and undetected due to terrain, then they could have went vertical and launched missiles at Avenger1 while he was busy engaging the F-16s at 40,000 feet. If Avenger1 decided to attack the low flying F-16s then the F-16s at 40,000 feet would come in fast, high and hot, laughing AIM-120s. JF-17s could have also quickly joined to fight if needed but they were primarily probably decoys meant to divert any additional IAF aircraft away from Avenger1 so as to keep the fight in favor of the PAF. The IAF Mig-21 that was downed somewhat fell for the trap, although it did manage to pull off the element of surprise until the last minute due to a deliberate low altitude, high speed dash towards PAF F-16. Unfortunately the Mig-21 also lacked altitude to exploit the R-77s full range, it’s smaller, older radar and the unsecure communications the IAF was using just exasperated the situation.


If the roles were reversed and it there were several IAF Falcon AWACS supporting 8 SU-30MKIs, one pair at high altitude and the other at low altitude while another 4 Tejas were not far away do you really think a single F-16 would ever dare to challenge 12 Indian jets? If that were the case and the ROE were cleared for the IAF to openly engage PAF jets then we would be hearing how the F-16s and the AIM-120c5 was a failure.
 
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StealthFlanker

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Nope India Bought
100 R-27ER semi-active-radar homing extended-range version

200 R-27 ET infrared-homing extended-range version


R-27 ET are Very Effective Missile its Works on Passive Infrared With OLS-30 is used in conjunction with the helmet mounted sighting system. The OLS-30 is a combined IRST/LR device using a cooled, broad waveband sensor. Detection range is up to 90 km, while the laser ranger is effective to 3.5 km. Targets are displayed on the same LCD display as the radar

Its Makes u Target Enemy Plane by Going Cold




Only Effective counter Measures are (DIRCM) Directional Infrared Counter Measures Which Porkies Lack
It is important to keep in mind that the 90 km detection range of OLS-30 only apply if you looking at the rear aspect of target with their unshielded tail pipe, if you are looking at the frontal aspect of enemy (like when they are flying toward you) then the detection range will varied between 15-30 km. Secondly, you need range measurement generate firing solution for missile, so the engagement range with IRST system will be between 15-20 km


 

StealthFlanker

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This statement can be flipped around and claimed the AIM-120c5 failed since during Balakot PAF didn’t launch any missiles despite Pakistanis claiming they launched aircraft to confront and repel the IAF that day. You are also forgetting or not understand the vast importance PAF AWACS had that day.


The PAF entire plan that day was to try to bait one of the IAF jets into an ambush which I will explain later. The reasons the IAF didn’t launch any missile is simple numerical superiority, kinetic advantage and altitude the PAF had that day. The lone SU-30MKI (Avenger1) was wise enough not to engage any F-16’s because he would have been ambushed by other pairs of F-16s possibly flying too low to be detected. The outcome probably would have been the same even with it was a Rafale that day but as we know it was essentially one SU-30MKI (Avenger1) against 8 F-16’s plus 4 JF-17s just north of Khuiratta, another SU-30 (Avenger2) had to land due to low fuel. The Pakistanis probably waited for Avenger2 to run low on fuel then they launched 24 aircraft.

To break it down, the PAF aircraft that day were operating at higher altitudes and flying at higher airspeeds, thus their missiles had more range. PAF had 4 F-16s at 40,000 feet around Mirpur, these were probably the F-16’s that launched AIM-120s. Then the PAF had 4 more F-16s west of Bhimbar operating as low as 10,000 feet, these were the ones that launched the failed attack on army HQ. Then PAF had 4 JF-17s at 30,000 feet north of Khuiratta. The situation was unfavorable for Avenger1 no matter what he would have done, no matter what what course of action Avenger1 would have taken it would have been bait which would have resulted in an ambush. If Avenger1 decided to go after the F-16s at 40,000 feet, then the F-16 at 10,000 feet or lower could have surprised Avenger1 by flying low, fast and undetected due to terrain, then they could have went vertical and launched missiles at Avenger1 while he was busy engaging the F-16s at 40,000 feet. If Avenger1 decided to attack the low flying F-16s then the F-16s at 40,000 feet would come in fast, high and hot, laughing AIM-120s. JF-17s could have also quickly joined to fight if needed but they were primarily probably decoys meant to divert any additional IAF aircraft away from Avenger1 so as to keep the fight in favor of the PAF. The IAF Mig-21 that was downed somewhat fell for the trap, although it did manage to pull off the element of surprise until the last minute due to a deliberate low altitude, high speed dash towards PAF F-16. Unfortunately the Mig-21 also lacked altitude to exploit the R-77s full range, it’s smaller, older radar and the unsecure communications the IAF was using just exasperated the situation.


If the roles were reversed and it there were several IAF Falcon AWACS supporting 8 SU-30MKIs, one pair at high altitude and the other at low altitude while another 4 Tejas were not far away do you really think a single F-16 would ever dare to challenge 12 Indian jets? If that were the case and the ROE were cleared for the IAF to openly engage PAF jets then we would be hearing how the F-16s and the AIM-120c5 was a failure.
Yes, speed and altitude will have huge impact on missile range, and AWACS did play a huge role on that fight. However, it is also true that R-77 is a shorter range missile than AIM-120, even the previous AIM-120A and B, let alone AIM-120C-5. This is due to the lattice fin and greater fin area on R-77 compare to small planar fin AIM-120. Greater fin area makes missile turn better, especially at low speed. But it is also draggier and make your missile decelerate faster once burn out.



 

SajeevJino

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Stop spreading miss information and lies. There are multiple photos of MKIs with the SAP-518 including recent ones from the official IAF Twitter account. We also have Indian Air Force test pilots conforming the use of the SAP518.

wow, Multiple photos of MKI with SAP, why I can't see anyone that you posted here ,

did anyone see the pics, that he shared here

[--Flamebait removed -- ], we need sources and evidences
 
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Neptune

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Yes, speed and altitude will have huge impact on missile range, and AWACS did play a huge role on that fight. However, it is also true that R-77 is a shorter range missile than AIM-120, even the previous AIM-120A and B, let alone AIM-120C-5. This is due to the lattice fin and greater fin area on R-77 compare to small planar fin AIM-120. Greater fin area makes missile turn better, especially at low speed. But it is also draggier and make your missile decelerate faster once burn out.




Yes I know the AIM-120c5 has a range advantage over the basic R-77, around 10-15% greater in fact. During the 27th Avenger1 MKI was on the defensive, Avenger1 was trying to deter F-16s from attacking Indian military installations as well trying to buy time before more of the IAF aircraft were able to scramble.

Even if Avenger1 had the same range missiles as the AMMRAMS, it would not have made any difference, Avenger1 lacked the altitude and probably bled a considerably amount of airspeed while going ‘hot’ (going offensive) then ‘cold’ (defensive) while executing hard turns.
 

Neptune

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wow, Multiple photos of MKI with SAP, why I can't see anyone that you posted here ,

did anyone see the pics, that he shared here


[ -- Flamebait removed --], we need sources and evidences

[ -- Flamebait removed --]


Literally a screen shot 4 pages back of someone posting a Tweet from an Indian Air Force test pilot dated March 7, 2020:

907AEF8D-B94C-4F9A-BF2B-15F32CB61AD5.png



Here is an official tweet from the IAF showing SAP-518 ECM on an MKI, posted Mach 6, 2020:



There are also other photos of the SAP-518 on MKIs.
 
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WARREN SS

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It is important to keep in mind that the 90 km detection range of OLS-30 only apply if you looking at the rear aspect of target with their unshielded tail pipe, if you are looking at the frontal aspect of enemy (like when they are flying toward you) then the detection range will varied between 15-30 km. Secondly, you need range measurement generate firing solution for missile, so the engagement range with IRST system will be between 15-20 km


That Why there is Combo R-77 or Any ARH BVRAAM And R-27 T Works Combination

You can Fire A Active radar like R-77 To Engage a target Then Fire R-27 ET Passive IR Which can be Guide in same mode Which Switches To IR When its Reaches 50 km Near target Mid course update To switch Passive IR seeker Its Negate chance Of Getting Jammed R-27 ET Effective kill range: 2 to 52.5 km head-on, 0.7 to 12.5 tail-on. On combat operations section of the Su-27 manual, this mode of usage is especially recommended for head-on usage for passive attacks at targets with 0 degrees approach angle (i.e. another fighter moving to intercept), leaving target un alerted to incoming missile

Yemini's has Narrowly missed FA -15

 
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StealthFlanker

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R-27 ER- Semi-active radar homing- max range: 117km
R-27 ET- IR homing- max range: 104km
R-27 EA- Active seeker- max range: >130km
R-27 EM- Active seeker- max range: >170km
R-27EA and R-27EM never went into production, they weren't even fly tested so there isn't any point in mentioning them as they are pretty much cancelled paper project. At the moment we only have R-27ER, R-27R, R-27T and R-27ET.
R-27 BVRAAM.JPG


and, these quoted range are pretty much just max kinematic range .The engagement range according to Mig-29 manual is much shorter
For small motor version, if the altitude is 10 km, the range is about 35 km for head on shot and 15 km for tail on shot
R-27PI.jpg

For big motor, the range is about 60 km for head on shot and 28 km for tail on shot
R-27ER.png


Compare that to the two charts I posted earlier, at the same 10km altitude.
R-77 range is 41 km for head on shot and 10 km for tail on shot
PNGNFXa.jpg


AIM-120B range is 55 km for head on shot and 20 km for tail on shot
xgIOlxP.png

BGUzxdO.png
 

StealthFlanker

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Yes I know the AIM-120c5 has a range advantage over the basic R-77, around 10-15% greater in fact. During the 27th Avenger1 MKI was on the defensive, Avenger1 was trying to deter F-16s from attacking Indian military installations as well trying to buy time before more of the IAF aircraft were able to scramble.



Even if Avenger1 had the same range missiles as the AMMRAMS, it would not have made any difference, Avenger1 lacked the altitude and probably bled a considerably amount of airspeed while going ‘hot’ (going offensive) then ‘cold’ (defensive) while executing hard turns.
Yes it wouldn't have made much difference even if Avenger1 have the same range missiles as the AIM-120C-5. But my point is that basic R-77 have very short range, as you can see in the diagram, at 10 km co-altitude R-77 range is 34% worse than AIM-120B for head on shot and 80% worse in tail chase shot. There are pretty good reason why RuaF stick with R-27 for so long and only purchase the R-77-1 version recently
 

StealthFlanker

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That Why there is Combo R-77 or Any ARH BVRAAM And R-27 T Works Combination
You can Fire A Active radar like R-77 To Engage a target Then Fire R-27 ET Passive IR Which can be Guide in same mode Which Switches To IR When its Reaches 50 km Near target Mid course update To switch Passive IR seeker Its Negate chance Of Getting Jammed R-27 ET Effective kill range: 2 to 52.5 km head-on, 0.7 to 12.5 tail-on. On combat operations section of the Su-27 manual, this mode of usage is especially recommended for head-on usage for passive attacks at targets with 0 degrees approach angle (i.e. another fighter moving to intercept), leaving target un alerted to incoming missile
Yemini's has Narrowly missed FA -15
There are 2 issues with this:
1- for a total passive shot, as in you don't turn on your radar. The attack range will be limited by the laser finder range of OLS irst system, which is often about 15-20 km.
2- R-27ET and R-27T are lock on before launch missile without mid course radio correction. The missile must lock onto target while it is still carried on the launcher. If even OLS-35 won't detect head on target from distance further than 35 km, there isn't much chance for R-27 infared seeker to do such a thing. R-27T and R-27ET are intended to be used as tail chase weapon against target that R-73 unable to reach.
 

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GD7uI8W.jpg



One of the most important feature(personal) of Super Sukhoi MKI is the addition of new-generation weapons management computer,
new WMC allows IAF to add any Weapons Indigenous / Foreign for MKI. Current WMC is Russian origin which uses a GOST digital databus and its source codes are unavailable for us even after we bought 300 MKIs and its almost 30 Years know . Don't know how much money we wasted in just negotiation with Russians to integrate Weapons on MKI.

Now we are buying Rafale I don't think they give any source code for us . This. Why we need IAF ORCA , yes it's Possible to buy more Rafale but how long we depend on others.
 

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