Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[arya]

That's unfortunately how Indian bureaucracy works!!!

I hope new order of SU 30 MKI will come after up gradation otherwise this is just waste of money , let see what expert says

 

[Kchontha]

Same! No AESA, all metal non stealthy air frame, under powered engine. Not a 5th generation at all.

That means that Russians are fools!???

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[arya]

That means that Russians are fools!???

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May be few peoples in our system donot want give power to IAF, they want IAF work with half power & slowly slowly its power will reduce.

MMRCA is delaying more then 15 years but still hanging

 

[Enquirer]

I hope new order of SU 30 MKI will come after up gradation otherwise this is just waste of money , let see what expert says

I doubt that.
Desi bureaucrats cannot think and act in efficient manner.
The old Su-30MKI contract allows for purchase of additional aircraft in certain configuration.
The new upgrade contract (when finalized) will lay out upgrade from a 'specific' config to another config. The radars and engines from the newly purchased planes will be discarded (only saving grace may be that the newly acquired planes maybe the last to upgrade)
So, it's a two step process. The bureaucrats are not bred to think smart.

As you can see Mirage 2000 upgrade at $50 million a piece (no AESA radar, no new engine) is bureaucratically easier to accomplish than buying a brand new Mirage 2000 for the same price with brand new airframe, new engines and new avionics

 

[arya]

I doubt that.
Desi bureaucrats cannot think and act in efficient manner.
The old Su-30MKI contract allows for purchase of additional aircraft in certain configuration.
The new upgrade contract (when finalized) will lay out upgrade from a 'specific' config to another config. The radars and engines from the newly purchased planes will be discarded (only saving grace may be that the newly acquired planes maybe the last to upgrade)
So, it's a two step process. The bureaucrats are not bred to think smart.

As you can see Mirage 2000 upgrade at $50 million a piece (no AESA radar, no new engine) is bureaucratically easier to accomplish than buying a brand new Mirage 2000 for the same price with brand new airframe, new engines and new avionics

You are 100 % right no one is caring about IAF , idiot babus are making money and iaf officer are silent not showing dare to tell bureaucracy what the hell you guys are doing .

I hope i will be wrong but till now its looking no is serious about national security, we are bying su 30 mki to increase number while we know they need up gradation so it means spending money two times on a single planes.

Govt babus are very smart

 

[Defcon 1]

You are 100 % right no one is caring about IAF , idiot babus are making money and iaf officer are silent not showing dare to tell bureaucracy what the hell you guys are doing .

I hope i will be wrong but till now its looking no is serious about national security, we are bying su 30 mki to increase number while we know they need up gradation so it means spending money two times on a single planes.

Govt babus are very smart

This is a misconception. The newly bought MKIs will not be upgraded immediately. The oldest ones will be upgraded first. The entire upgrade cycle will take years and by the time the latest MKIs get upgraded, they would be old enough to upgrade.

 

[arya]

This is a misconception. The newly bought MKIs will not be upgraded immediately. The oldest ones will be upgraded first. The entire upgrade cycle will take years and by the time the latest MKIs get upgraded, they would be old enough to upgrade.

yes and in this cycle who is making money and who is losing . Only and only india losing . Sorry but very bad try come next time again with better one

 

[vampyrbladez]

#Hal Unmanned Wingman Aircraft rendering

Size comparison with official data with respect to Su-30MKI

XQ 58A lookalike........................................................................

 

[Enquirer]

This is a misconception. The newly bought MKIs will not be upgraded immediately. The oldest ones will be upgraded first. The entire upgrade cycle will take years and by the time the latest MKIs get upgraded, they would be old enough to upgrade.

One would question why one needs to buy a 30 year old tech based radar today (and other avionics)....and replace it with a new one at additional cost in 6-7 years time (radars don't wear out and don't require replacement at all - especially given that the airborne ones are barely operational for a few hours in a month)!!

 

[Defcon 1]

yes and in this cycle who is making money and who is losing . Only and only india losing . Sorry but very bad try come next time again with better one

Dude India isn't losing. This is standard way aircraft are ordered. The latest eurofighters are without AESA. Kuwait will be the launch customer for Captor e AESA. So does that mean the nations which ordered hundreds of eurofighters without AESA are fools? No it doesn't work like this.

 

[Defcon 1]

One would question why one needs to buy a 30 year old tech based radar today (and other avionics)....and replace it with a new one at additional cost in 6-7 years time (radars don't wear out and don't require replacement at all - especially given that the airborne ones are barely operational for a few hours in a month)!!

It is not 6-7 years at all. The first upgraded MKI is not expected to fly before 2025. Taking an extremely conservative time period of 5 years required to upgrade all 270+ MKIs, we are still looking at 10+ years before the latest MKIs will get upgraded.

And yes the radars do get wear off. Not sure where did you get this. The flight duration ia standard at about 200 hours per year, same for all fighters.

 

[Enquirer]

It is not 6-7 years at all. The first upgraded MKI is not expected to fly before 2025. Taking an extremely conservative time period of 5 years required to upgrade all 270+ MKIs, we are still looking at 10+ years before the latest MKIs will get upgraded.

And yes the radars do get wear off. Not sure where did you get this. The flight duration ia standard at about 200 hours per year, same for all fighters.

You're the only one who thinks that a mechanical airframe will outlast an electronic component

Name one instance when an fighter aircraft's radar had to be replaced by a new radar of the same type because the old one 'wore out' !!! Fighter aircraft engines get replaced...new engine of the same type....but radars if any are replaced ONLY for an upgrade.

The radars for Pechora etc (that see 100x operational hours per month than an aircraft) has been operational for nearly 50 years now!!!!!

Irrespective of when the upgrade starts and how long it will take to accomplish it, it makes no sense to buy new planes in old config! Why can't the new planes being built come in the new config??? Instead of the old radar they'll need to drop in a new one, instead of the old engine they need to drop in a new one!

 

[Defcon 1]

You're the only one who thinks that a mechanical airframe will outlast an electronic component

Irrespective of when the upgrade starts and how long it will take to accomplish it, it makes no sense to buy new planes in old config! Why can't the new planes being built come in the new config??? Instead of the old radar they'll need to drop in a new one, instead of the old engine they need to drop in a new one!

Not me, but the entire world knows mechanical airframes outlast electronic components. A single fighter airframe sees two or more radars during its life time of 30+ years.

I see that you have now changed your argument now to why we are buying planes in old config.

Well, I would say to that there is no other option. The last MKI deal was signed in 2012 and approved much before that. Both Irbis E and Al41f were prototypes at that point. In fact, for all pomp and show, the Su35 with upgraded engine and radar is still a failure with just 50 exports against original target of 200 and Russia will once again be looking at India to get back the money invested in their radar and engine program.

The basic problem is that Russians didn't make much progress in last 20 years and due to the unique size of the fighter, we couldn't get off the shelf components for upgrades. So we are stuck with old config with russian components.

 

[Enquirer]

Not me, but the entire world knows mechanical airframes outlast electronic components. A single fighter airframe sees two or more radars during its life time of 30+ years.

I see that you have now changed your argument now to why we are buying planes in old config.

Well, I would say to that there is no other option. The last MKI deal was signed in 2012 and approved much before that. Both Irbis E and Al41f were prototypes at that point. In fact, for all pomp and show, the Su35 with upgraded engine and radar is still a failure with just 50 exports against original target of 200 and Russia will once again be looking at India to get back the money invested in their radar and engine program.

The basic problem is that Russians didn't make much progress in last 20 years and due to the unique size of the fighter, we couldn't get off the shelf components for upgrades. So we are stuck with old config with russian components.

It's 2 to 3 engines per lifetime of a Russian aircraft!!! I can bet you that no one knows what you think they do - that 2 to 3 radars (of the exact same type) are required in a lifetime!!

Also, you don't seem to understand my point!

If additional aircraft have to be ordered and new config is underway, then prudence dictates that the new/additional aircraft be procured in the new config!
If 100 aircraft have to be upgraded (including 10 new acquired in old config) then it might take (say) 10 years! But if you order the new ones in the new config then you'll have 20 new config aircrafts in the very first year (instead of just 10) & the total upgrade period will be reduced to 9 (instead of 10).....and not to mention the upgrade cost is reduced by a 10th!!!
Kapisch????

FYI. when Su-30MKI was conceived and deemed that it would take few years for the design/production to take place, then IAF leased the old Su30 config for a few years.....these were returned to Russia (which got resold to an African country) when the required config was produced!

 

[Defcon 1]

It's 2 to 3 engines per lifetime of an Russian aircraft!!! I can bet you that no one knows what you think they do - that 2 to 3 radars are required in a lifetime!!

Also, you don't seem to understand my point!

If additional aircraft have to be ordered and new config is underway, then prudence dictates that the new/additional aircraft be procured in the new config!
If 100 aircraft have to be upgraded (including 10 new) then it might take (say) 10 years! But if you order the new ones in the new config then you'll have 20 new config aircrafts in the very first year (instead of just 10) & the total upgrade period will be reduced to 9 (instead of 10).....and not to mention the upgrade cost is reduced by a 10th!!!
Kapisch????

FYI. when Su-30MKI was conceived and deemed that it would take few years for the design/production to take place, then IAF leased the old Su30 config for a few years.....these were returned to Russia (which got resold to an African country) when the required config was produced!

No one is talking about engine here. We are talking about radars. All fighters need 2-3 radars during their lifetime too. Mirage 2000 upgrade is an example.

I already answered your question in my previous post. Read properly. The last MKI deal was signed in 2012. No new configuration existed at that time. Both al31f and bars radar was the latest available at that time.

What you are basically asking is to cancel a signed deal and force Russia to renegotiate. This is not a simple procurement issue as you are making it out to be.

 

[Enquirer]

No one is talking about engine here. We are talking about radars. All fighters need 2-3 radars during their lifetime too. Mirage 2000 upgrade is an example.

I already answered your question in my previous post. Read properly. The last MKI deal was signed in 2012. No new configuration existed at that time. Both al31f and bars radar was the latest available at that time.

What you are basically asking is to cancel a signed deal and force Russia to renegotiate. This is not a simple procurement issue as you are making it out to be.

There you go! You're obviously confusing an 'upgrade' with 'replacement'! Russian engines need to be replaced 2-3 times in its lifetime, but if no new 'features' (like additional thrust, control etc) are required then a new engine of the SAME type is put in.
However, what you're referring to wrt to Mirage 2000 is not called a replacement (due to wear and tear etc) but it's an UPGRADE....i.e. the current radar is still functional but IAF requires NEW CAPABILITIES as such a new radar (with different capabilities) is being ordered!

I can bet you that the latest order for 18 Su-30MKI (that's under discussion) was NOT signed in 2012!!!

What I am saying is that the recent order (NOT signed in 2012) for 18 Su-30MKI should have been with the new config!

 

[Shekhar Singh]

That means that Russians are fools!???

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No

That means that Russians are fools!???

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No, they are making us fools..

 

[Shekhar Singh]

May be few peoples in our system donot want give power to IAF, they want IAF work with half power & slowly slowly its power will reduce.

MMRCA is delaying more then 15 years but still hanging

BTW no FGFA is going to be operational before 2032. It's not going to be stealth with present airframe. Engine blades are visible through air intakes. IRBIS E AESA is still in development stage. Item 30 engine needs thousands hours of testing on dozens of airframes. Expect su 57 to become obsolete before it gets finished.
Better to invest more in AMCA and participate in Desault's NGF development programme for heavy class.

 

[Steven Rogers]

BTW no FGFA is going to be operational before 2032. It's not going to be stealth with present airframe. Engine blades are visible through air intakes. IRBIS E AESA is still in development stage. Item 30 engine needs thousands hours of testing on dozens of airframes. Expect su 57 to become obsolete before it gets finished.
Better to invest more in AMCA and participate in Desault's NGF development programme for heavy class.

Or rather drop the plan to acquire the fleet of mix heavy mid light. Which i guess is already dropped. Last year during a seminar,Airforce official stated that AMCA will replace the earlier Su30mkis.

 

[Vijyes]

Or rather drop the plan to acquire the fleet of mix heavy mid light. Which i guess is already dropped. Last year during a seminar,Airforce official stated that AMCA will replace the earlier Su30mkis.

How is this possible? Su30 is still being manufactured. It started being made in 2004 and even if it has 35 year life span, the first Su30 will last till 2040 and subsequent ones will last till 2055. How can AMCA replace it?

India will use 4 planes mix - MWF, AMCA, Rafale and Su30,all of them made in India. One can say Rafale is redundant amongst these as it offers nothing special compared to AMCA or MWF. But Su30 offers special features like carrying ultra heavy payload like Brahmos missile and travelling for 3000km without refueling which is not replaceable by any other plane India possesses or intends to possess in future.