Sukhoi PAK FA

[Dovah]

this ionizing layer will then ionize the radar waves touching it

??.
Can you elaborate on this point mate.
Thanks

 

[agentperry]

??.
Can you elaborate on this point mate.
Thanks

i dont know much but what im told till now is that this tech will make a layer over the entire body. the striking radar waves will get ionized that is gets destroyed( instead of getting scattered because of sharp cuts and shape of plane like in american stealth fighters and absorption by the ram coating). as the radar waves are no more present there will be no reflection and subsequently on radar plane wont appear from which ever angle you see.

 

[Dovah]

i dont know much but what im told till now is that this tech will make a layer over the entire body. the striking radar waves will get ionized that is gets destroyed( instead of getting scattered because of sharp cuts and shape of plane like in american stealth fighters and absorption by the ram coating). as the radar waves are no more present there will be no reflection and subsequently on radar plane wont appear from which ever angle you see.

But aren't radar waves like EM radiations, how can they be ionized?

 

[agentperry]

But aren't radar waves like EM radiations, how can they be ionized?

see i dont know much about it. yes radar waves are EM waves but may be using plasma tech they are trying to change the property all together of the striking wave. i seriously dont have much info. this is what i know about the stealth tech of Su-47 which may be incorporated in Pak/Fa( in the report it is said T-50 but as we know that t-50 is being modified to pak/fa so....)

 

[ace009]

see i dont know much about it. yes radar waves are EM waves but may be using plasma tech they are trying to change the property all together of the striking wave. i seriously dont have much info. this is what i know about the stealth tech of Su-47 which may be incorporated in Pak/Fa( in the report it is said T-50 but as we know that t-50 is being modified to pak/fa so....)

"Plasma stealth" is not operational, have not been developed and has not even been shown to work for an aircraft in atmospheric flight.

The concept of plasma stealth originated from the space re-entry vehicles, that while going through the ionosphere at a high velocity, further energize the surrounding ions and turn them into "plasma". This produces a strong EM cloaking, at which no radio signal can be detected from the space vehicle.
There are two major problems associated with plasma stalth -

1. Technological - There is no easy way to generate and maintain a plasma cloak around a fast moving aircraft in normal atmosphere.

2. Logical - Even if a plasma cloak can be developed, it would become a moving searchlight of intense ionic radiation itself, which cqn be detected by any EM detector.

 

[agentperry]

"Plasma stealth" is not operational, have not been developed and has not even been shown to work for an aircraft in atmospheric flight.

The concept of plasma stealth originated from the space re-entry vehicles, that while going through the ionosphere at a high velocity, further energize the surrounding ions and turn them into "plasma". This produces a strong EM cloaking, at which no radio signal can be detected from the space vehicle.
There are two major problems associated with plasma stalth -

1. Technological - There is no easy way to generate and maintain a plasma cloak around a fast moving aircraft in normal atmosphere.

2. Logical - Even if a plasma cloak can be developed, it would become a moving searchlight of intense ionic radiation itself, which cqn be detected by any EM detector.

its on table.... very credible sources back this. its on card for su-47 and may be incorporated in pak-fa. they are going on for a plasma torch kinda thing which will be making a plasma layer over the planes to evade the radar waves by destroying them in one way or the other. they are having some add on in the nose or modifying nose all together. but yes everything is under wrap

 

[ace009]

Can you provide some source for this? Some report?

 

[agentperry]

Can you provide some source for this? Some report?

no reports. MoD guys only. verbal info. not in public domain officially.

 

[ace009]

OK - then I will belive it only when I see it in action.

The problem with Plasma stealth is as I have mentioned earlier - it is netiher easy to build, nor certain how useful it is. Can you imagine how easy it will be to track a ball of plasma streaking across the sky at 1.5 Mach at an altitude of 50,000 feet? Plasma will generate it's own EM signature. Even if enemy defenses cannot figure out what aircraft it is and who it belongs to, they will be reasonably sure that it is indeed a threat and has to be responded to - what's the point of "stealth" then?

Now, if everyone has plasma stealth, then the streaking ball of plasma becomes anonymous and gives some "stealth" benefits.

 

[agentperry]

OK - then I will belive it only when I see it in action.

The problem with Plasma stealth is as I have mentioned earlier - it is netiher easy to build, nor certain how useful it is. Can you imagine how easy it will be to track a ball of plasma streaking across the sky at 1.5 Mach at an altitude of 50,000 feet? Plasma will generate it's own EM signature. Even if enemy defenses cannot figure out what aircraft it is and who it belongs to, they will be reasonably sure that it is indeed a threat and has to be responded to - what's the point of "stealth" then?

Now, if everyone has plasma stealth, then the streaking ball of plasma becomes anonymous and gives some "stealth" benefits.

ya same with me. i will believe it when i see it. but yaar when they are putting so much money and resources into it then they might have some solution for the problems you are pointing out.

 

[ace009]

You seriously believe that MoD spending money on something means it has potential? Really? Come on dude - remember what happened to Bhima self towed artillery? Kaveri engine? ...

 

[SATISH]

hey guys just found out that T-50 and future version of Su-47 will be having plasma torch for stealth and not the old cuts and ram coating stealth feature. this is a superior technology and will make F-22 raptors stealth tech look stone age tech.

in this plasma torch tech, there is a special nose designed for the T-50 on which plasma torch will be focussed or may be even put on. the function of this plasma torch is to cover the plane with an ionizing layer.
this ionizing layer will then ionize the radar waves touching it thus no reflection of striking radar waves from all dircetion => stealth( 360 degree).

in all the western planes the stealth is by the virtue of cuts and shapes of plane with the ram coating. the ram reduces the radar cross section area but the cuts and shapes are only effective from certain degree of view or positioning of radar.

if this tech got shared with India it will greatly enhance India's air dominance and tech advances.

Well the problem that the Russians are facing is providing it power as the power from fighter jet engines are not enough to power the plasma generator on board and it significantly enhances the weight of the aircraft and also screws up with the on-board electronics fuctions.

If i am right it will take them atleast 2 decades to sort out that problem.

 

[agentperry]

they are talking about plasma torch. a thing that will put up the plasma layer type thing over the plane for some time and not a continuous plasma generating device.
its on for su-47 though- confirmed.
wait to see this futuristic tech will be put on pak-fa or not.

 

[agentperry]

You seriously believe that MoD spending money on something means it has potential? Really? Come on dude - remember what happened to Bhima self towed artillery? Kaveri engine? ...

its not at all Indian stuff.
its russian thing which India may get on pak-fa( not even sure that Indian pak-fa will get it or not). its up for su-47.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Their is nothing sure abt PAK-FA as it still on prototype levels, The third one will feature Indian version..

Btw, What is plasma stealth and how it works ?

 

[agentperry]

Their is nothing sure abt PAK-FA as it still on prototype levels, The third one will feature Indian version..

Btw, What is plasma stealth and how it works ?

sir i have no knowledge about the plasma tech- what im told is that this tech will include a plasma torch which will illuminate nose of pak-fa with layer of plasma kind of thing. this will be wrapping up whole of the plane for quite a time and the radar waves striking it will gets destroyed- change in property leading to loss of radar capabilities. it gives 360 degree freedom from radar detection. this is what i know till now.

 

[ace009]

Their is nothing sure abt PAK-FA as it still on prototype levels, The third one will feature Indian version..

Btw, What is plasma stealth and how it works ?

Kunal, - from my earlier post ....

"Plasma stealth" is not operational, have not been developed and has not even been shown to work for an aircraft in atmospheric flight.

The concept of plasma stealth originated from the space re-entry vehicles, that while going through the ionosphere at a high velocity, further energize the surrounding ions and turn them into "plasma". This produces a strong EM cloaking, at which no radio signal can be detected from the space vehicle.
There are two major problems associated with plasma stalth -

1. Technological - There is no easy way to generate and maintain a plasma cloak around a fast moving aircraft in normal atmosphere.

2. Logical - Even if a plasma cloak can be developed, it would become a moving searchlight of intense ionic radiation itself, which can be detected by any EM detector.

 

[gambit]

The most popular conception of 'plasma stealth' is that of a plasma field enveloping the aircraft. While that notion does have technical merits, considering atmospheric reentry produces such an enveloping cloud around a vehicle, we should keep in mind that such a production is a result of high speed and heat. The vehicle itself is not responsible. Can we produce such an enveloping cloud by creating and using factors that exist during atmospheric reentry? Yes, but mostly under tightly controlled laboratory conditions. To create an aircraft with such a system that can be maintain under field conditions would require decades of constant R/D. This is assuming that the country's base technological foundation is also evolving and improving and not affected by economic cycles.

A major problem with the plasma field, which emulate the layers of the Earth's atmosphere that contains layers of plasma...

Ionosphere - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This portion of the atmosphere is ionized and contains a plasma which is referred to as the ionosphere.

...Is that just as the Earth's atmospheric plasma can deflect radio (EM) signals...

...the ionosphere can be utilized to "bounce" a transmitted signal down to ground. Transcontinental HF-connections rely on up to 5 bounces, or hops. Such communications played an important role during World War II.

A poorly designed and generated plasma field can be just as effective as the vehicle itself in reflecting radar signals, which are far less complex than music radio signals, hence much more survivable when encountering solid objects.

Another problem, albeit less critical, is that IF the plasma field is successful in absorbing impinging radar signals and does not allow any reflections, then this plasma field will not allow outgoing radar signals as well, leaving the aircraft electronically blind. However, if the F-117 which does not have a radar system, can fly to its target and deliver bombs with deadly accuracy, this blindness created by a plasma field can be consider an acceptable temporary handicap. Remember, impinging radar signals will most likely be the same as that of the aircraft's system -- X band. So if the plasma field is created to nullify incoming X region signals, it will at least create severe difficulties for outgoing X region signals as well.

Another problem is that environmental influences outside the aircraft are not under the aircraft's control, therefore it is highly probable, not merely possible, that under certain atmospheric conditions, interactions with these factors may cause a non-uniform plasma field, leaving the aircraft vulnerable to detection.

The alternative to the plasma field, which currently straddles the fence between feasibility and science fiction, is the plasma antenna...

'Stealth' Antenna Made Of Gas, Impervious To Jamming

A new antenna made of plasma (a gas heated to the point that the electrons are ripped free of atoms and molecules) works just like conventional metal antennas, except that it vanishes when you turn it off.

Plasma antennas are long out of the laboratory...

Plasma antennas to give us wireless connection at gigs per second | SmartPlanet

Enter plasma antennas. New Scientist describes that the antennas "could revolutionize high-spreed wireless communications, miniature radar and even energy weapons." Its ability to beam-form high-frequency radio waves into one stream would help deliver wireless content in a snap. Meet Plasma Silicon Antenna (PSiAN).

If a plasma antenna can be made to transmit and receive, it can be operationally used to receive or rather absorb impinging radar signals.

Next...

Plasma antennas can be strategically placed around highly reflective surfaces and structures of an aircraft. For the illustration above of a radar image of an airliner, the prominent voltage spike created by the tail assembly can be reduced by plasma antennas. Other less reflective areas can be reduced as well.

The plasma field itself is totally contained inside the antenna assembly, unaffected by external atmospheric influences, and can be 'tuned' to absorb a wider bandwidth. The antenna itself would have to be embedded into the aircraft's surface. A small amount of reflected energy is inevitable but if the majority of the signal is pass-through then the plasma antenna will be able to do its job of absorption and negation. That tiny amount of initial surface reflection will be attenuated by the atmosphere in its travel anyway. The engineering complexity is already evidently enormous but is more technically feasible.

Finally, just in case anyone wonder if the US ignored the potential of plasma because the speculations about the Russians' products are so available...

AFRL Proves Feasibility Of Plasma Actuators

AFRL is examining the feasibility of replacing traditional mechanical actuators, which move to control an air vehicle's flight control surfaces like wing flaps, with plasma actuators that require no moving parts and are more reliable.

Using plasma fields to selectively redirect aerodynamic forces the way solid flight control surfaces have been doing all these decades? If we can do that to air, just imagine how far we may have progressed in our own version of 'plasma stealth'. There are strange things going on out there in Area 52, not 51.

 

[p2prada]

Using plasma fields to selectively redirect aerodynamic forces the way solid flight control surfaces have been doing all these decades? If we can do that to air, just imagine how far we may have progressed in our own version of 'plasma stealth'. There are strange things going on out there in Area 52, not 51.

The Russians and British have also been working on plasma aerodynamics. It was in the 70s when Russians figured out Plasma can be used to reduce drag on complex bodies. The British started as well and in the 90s all three countries figured out plasma can be used to move control surfaces and even redirect air. Actually after the fall of the Soviet Union, the three countries started working together on plasma aerodynamics because of the immense benefits the technology offered. New deals were formed for collaboration since the mid 90s.

This was as of last year,

AFOSR initiates Russian and US scientists collaboration in plasma aerodynamics | Bioscience Technology Online

Scientists from the U.S. and Russia, engaged in a unique collaboration organized by the Air Force Office of Scientific Research, are conducting research in high-speed wind tunnel facilities to make discoveries in plasma-assisted combustion and plasma-based flow control.

The scientists from Russia brought many years of sophisticated theoretical knowledge, understanding of plasmas, and experience working in high-energy microwave facilities to the research project.

"Our model, which can be used to examine various concepts for light control of generic aircraft shapes, has been validated by comparison with experimental data from St. Petersburg State University in Russia," said Knight.

There is a lot more in the article.

However plasma stealth is a lot harder than plasma assisted aerodynamics. Eventually we will know if it is feasible or not.

 

[Neil]

Sukhoi PAK-FA a insight in the emerging future fighter designs

The Sukhoi PAK-FA (known to some as T-50-designation given to the prototype phase) is an emerging frontline, multi-role all weather combat aircraft under development in the Russian Federation. A successor to the venerable and now omnipresent Su-27 family, it is expected to be a standard bearer of the family into the battlefields of the 21st century for at least the coming half-decade. Touted by some as the best fighter under development, it carries the hopes of the Russian military aviation.
The Russian Air Force plans to replace its Su-27s and MiG-31s by at least 200 Su PAK FAs initially starting 2013 (final tally may be around 450 as per a COST assumption). The Indian Air Force will also receive some 200 birds of the Su/HAL FGFA design, a mod of the PAK FA a la Su-30MKI. Also many more would be built for sales to allied third world air forces like Vietnam, Iran or even Venezuela.

The Tekhnokompleks Scientific and Production Center, Ramenskoye Instrument Building Design Bureau, the Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design, the Ural Optical and Mechanical Plant (Yekaterinburg), the Polet firm (Nizhniy Novgorod) and the Central Scientific Research Radio Engineering Institute (Moscow) are responsible for the development of the avionics suite for the fifth-generation airplane. NPO Saturn has been determined the lead executor for work on the engines for this airplane. The Novosibirsk Chkalov Aviation Production Association (NAPO Chkalov) has begun construction of the fifth-generation multirole fighter. This work is being performed at Komsomol'sk-on-Amur together with Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association.
This represents the best set of aerospace firms in Russia and one of the best in the world. No doubt they intend to build the Sukhoi PAK FA as one of the best aerial platforms in the world.

Fifth generation fighters have advanced capabilities of stealth, super-maneuverability, sustained supersonic cruise and over-the-horizon radar visibility. They also have integrated weapons and navigation systems managed by artificial intelligence, and high-performance frames made from space-age materials. Though most of the specifications of the PAK FA are classified but experts believe that it will no doubt emerge potent on all above parameters. It is the world's first fifth generation fighter incorporating 3-d thrust vectoring and a radar with artificial intellect. Composites are used excessively in its construction and provide high structural stability.
As the earlier fighters from the Sukhoi stable, the design will be both highly-maneuverable and agile. The sensor suite comprises of an Optical locating system located just in front of the cockpit, an additional IRST for ground attack, a large 1500 element AESA radar with artificial intelligence and additional L-band radars in the leading wing slats. The weapons designers have used a lifting body design with a large space between the engines. These accommodate two tandem weapon bays (4.5m*1m) that can accommodate a wide range of armaments suite as per the mission. Two auxiliary triangular weapon bays located at the sides of the main carriage and six external hard points supplement the main weapon bays. The design incorporates a few stealthy features like clean and faceted sides and internal weapons bays but is altogether not very stealthy.

In the days that followed its first test flight, a few experts claimed that the Sukhoi PAKFA was nothing more than a scaled up variant of the Su-27 family with little innovation included. They also said that since the fighter belonged to a family developed in 1980s, its relevance in the modern era is negligible. The design was not a true fifth generation fighter, rather it was a scooped up fourth generation fighter. This is certainly not true. The design incorporates many technical innovations that were previously not present in the Su-27 family like the stealth shaping, lifting body design and multiple sensors. The design fulfills all criteria that are essential for fifth generation fighters.

Many experts are also quick to claim that with an inferior sensor suite and a not-so stealthy design are evidences that it is not a fifth generation fighter. It will be easily shot down in battle by other fifth generation fighters before even opening fire or even detecting them. This too, is not true. The sensor suite, still under development, is the most potent on offer by the venerable Russian Defense Industry. The OLS, the IRST and the AESA will no doubt allow the Sukhoi to complete its missions with pin point accuracy. Coming to its additional radar suite, the L-band radars reflect the design principle of the Sukhoi PAK-FA. With the L-bands, agility,3-d vectors, twin 30mm cannons and R-74 missiles, the PAKFA is built to do just one thing-"To look-down, run-down, gun-down other 5-G designs in close quarters battle." Since most of current 5-G designs are aimed at fooling X-band radars, the L-bands come both as logical and literal next move for future air combat. It is unlikely that the F-35 Lightening II would even come close to that performance spectrum that the Sukhoi intends to offer. In a few critical aspects such as range and internal weapons load, it outguns even the doyen of today's skies, the F-22 RAPTOR.

Stealth, it appears was the secondary objective the designers of the PAKFA. All over the plane, preferences have been given to aspects like maneuverability and lift devices over stealth. Some credit it to the plasma stealth generating device which was allegedly flight tested by a Su-27 in early 2000s. They say that since the device will surround the aircraft with a layer of plasma creating a effect similar to stealth shaping and decrease RCS, the shaping is rendered irrelevant, thus the preference to the other aspects. Others simply claim that it is Russian tendency to give stealth a second priority other combat. However the truth is yet to come out.
The fighter punches far above its own weight, but it remains to be seem if the Russian Industry and Air Force are able to deliver the platform on time, in quality and in quantity. Years of neglect have helped hone this design but it remains to be observed if the Russian Industry can produce the lots of it in time.

As stated above, the Sukhoi PAKFA is a competent aerial platform capable of standing toe-to-toe with the other designs with carving a niche of its own. Whatever problems may befall on it, it is rugged, reliable and Russian.


Sukhoi PAK-FA a insight in the emerging future fighter designs | Defence Aviation