Sukhoi PAK FA

[Sunstersun]

Huh? That kids Soccer match they call the red flag? Something that doesn't test the readiness state or sortie rate like, say... an actual conflict situation? Showing off stealth is all well and good as Long as you are performing fruity loop be loops to impress children and investors in friendly airspace. When it's actual combat, it's extremely different. F117 shot down over Serbia was one of the first instances where showing off stealth and eating too much propaganda actually led to the American pilot ending up in an embarrassing interview in front of his captors .. to even the mighty F22 when flying in Syria for a combat run was escorted by F15s and F16s... why? So called F22 can kill 20-30 EFTs and Rafales right? The USAF is so afraid that the F22s will run into outdated Syrian aircrafts? The advent of GaN radars have further dented the so called supaa stealth features. Not to mention the absolutely pathetic sortie rate of the F22. These 'stealth' aircrafts require so much more effort in maintenance. So you know that? Just go check the he readiness and sortie rates of F22 and compare it with F15 or F16s.

Besides, what I ultimately bank on is logic. Do YOU know the entire capabilities J20? It's not even public domain yet. Even PLAAAAAF are just training with the new aircraft. And already somehow magically you have got all the performance parameters are decided it will 'Wipe out IAF' in a couple of days? Based on what parameters and conditions was this decided? Please answer.

Yes. Stealth is overrated. Stealth doesn't mean invisibility. It was just Low observable. New types of radars are already in which are capable of picking up these birds. Yes, the F22 has been tracked by radars. It isn't something new. And don't even go into WVR. Even the agile F22 got whupped by German EFTs. Just Google 'raptor salad for lunch. And have you seen how tiny the wing area is in comparison to the body size isnfor the J20? Can you tell me what does that say?

Lol just so much misinformation. The F-22 lost occasionally to the Eurotyphoon in dog fights. The Eurotyphoon is literally designed for dogfights. There is literally no scenario where the F-22 will EVER dog fight.

Two other German officers, Col. Andreas Pfeiffer and Maj. Marco Gumbrecht, noted in the same report that the F-22's capabilities are "overwhelming" when it comes to modern, long-range combat as the stealth fighter is designed to engage multiple enemies well-beyond the pilot's natural field of vision - mostly while the F-22 is still out of the other plane's range. Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren't able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.

"But as soon as you get to the merge…" Pfeiffer said, referring to the point at which fighters engage in close-up dogfighting, "in that area, at least, the Typhoon doesn't necessarily have to fear the F-22 in all aspects… In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22, with advantages in some aspects."

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...ses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/

So yes, the Eurotyphoon beat the F-22 occasionally in a knife fight, who the fuck cares. That German pilot is an idiot.

Kids soccer match? Red Flag is as close as you're going to get to real combat in training. They definitely test airplane combat readiness with the amount of sorties they fly.

>to even the mighty F22 when flying in Syria for a combat run was escorted by F15s and F16s... why? So called F22 can kill 20-30 EFTs and Rafales right? The USAF is so afraid that the F22s will run into outdated Syrian aircrafts?

Why would you ever risk something like that? Seriously you expect the f-22 to fly alone just because it can?

Also I never commented on the J-20.

Stealth isn't overrated, you said it yourself. it means low observable. Even with new radars it's still less detectable than planes without stealth which gives it a decisive advantage in A2A

 

[Krusty]

Lol just so much misinformation. The F-22 lost occasionally to the Eurotyphoon in dog fights. The Eurotyphoon is literally designed for dogfights. There is literally no scenario where the F-22 will EVER dog fight.

Two other German officers, Col. Andreas Pfeiffer and Maj. Marco Gumbrecht, noted in the same report that the F-22's capabilities are "overwhelming" when it comes to modern, long-range combat as the stealth fighter is designed to engage multiple enemies well-beyond the pilot's natural field of vision - mostly while the F-22 is still out of the other plane's range. Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren't able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.

"But as soon as you get to the merge…" Pfeiffer said, referring to the point at which fighters engage in close-up dogfighting, "in that area, at least, the Typhoon doesn't necessarily have to fear the F-22 in all aspects… In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22, with advantages in some aspects."

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...ses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/

So yes, the Eurotyphoon beat the F-22 occasionally in a knife fight, who the fuck cares. That German pilot is an idiot.

Kids soccer match? Red Flag is as close as you're going to get to real combat in training.

>to even the mighty F22 when flying in Syria for a combat run was escorted by F15s and F16s... why? So called F22 can kill 20-30 EFTs and Rafales right? The USAF is so afraid that the F22s will run into outdated Syrian aircrafts?

Why would you ever risk something like that? Seriously you expect the f-22 to fly alone just because it can?

You have only replied to two of my points, but ok. I'll let that slip. Coming to your point about F22s vs EFT, the german pilot is an idiot? Did you read the report? F22 wasn't beat 'occasionally'. It was beat consistently. The last time US bragged about 'era of dogfights is dead' just because they had satellite this GPS that, they had their arse whupped in Vietnam by post WW2 era jets. Warfare is more than just shiny equipment.They won't make the same mistake again which leads to my next point.

The M1 Abrams was designed to be the ultimate tank. The US knew it. During the gulf war, M1s were sent out alone in tank engagements with the Iraqi Army. The US was so confident in its equipment. Because thats what it was designed to to and it could do it effortlessly. Why isn't the same confidence showing in the F22? It was afterall designed for it isn't it? What is the use of a suuppaaa stealth aircraft if it needs 6 fighters to escort it? Then what is the use of it in the first place? Your point is moot.

 

[Sunstersun]

You have only replied to two of my points, but ok. I'll let that slip. Coming to your point about F22s vs EFT, the german pilot is an idiot? Did you read the report? F22 wasn't beat 'occasionally'. It was beat consistently. The last time US bragged about 'era of dogfights is dead' just because they had satellite this GOS that, they had their arse whipped in Vietnam by post WW2 era jets. They won't make the same mistake again which leads to my next point.

The M1 Abrams was designed to be the ultimate tank. The US knew it. During the gulf war, M1s were sent out alone in tank engagements with the Iraqi Army. The US was so confident in its equipment. Because it can. Why isn't the same confidence showing in the F22? It was afterall designed for it isn't it? What is the use of a suuppaaa stealth aircraft if it needs 6 fighters to escort it? Then what is the use of it in the first place? Your point is moot.

Okay, they can beat the F-22's 100 times out of 100 times in a dog fight and in a real fight they would still get shot down 100/100 times.

>Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren't able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.

So you're suggesting because the USA got something wrong about air combat 50 years ago(it didn't really get it wrong), 50years later it couldn't be correct? The air to air missile technology was at infancy in Vietnam. Once they became reliable, dog fighting became dead. Google the last dog fight kill, 30 years ago.

Also, the F-4 misconception about the gun is hilarious. Top gun training program had 99% of to do with the F-4 improvement not the gun added.

The vast majority are by missiles, and this is when the technology is nothing compared to today.


You're comparing a tank to a plane? The f-22 is the equivalent of special forces for land troops, why would you send your special forces alone even though you know they can fight alone? You're comparing planes to tanks and at the same time comparing special troops to regular troops. There isn't a link here. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. There's like thousands of Abrahams, there's only 200 F-22's.

 

[pmaitra]

he is may or may not be from American weapon Lobby but he is American &
All His comments are Giving funny reasons why India should Buy Americans Jets like F-16 , F-18 , F-35 etc instead of Rafaels , grippen or sukhois .

His older comments >> http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/search/5408167/?page=4
View attachment 16428 View attachment 16429 View attachment 16430 View attachment 16431

The phrase "he may or may not be" can be used to qualify any member of this forum.

I suggest you counter the points instead of attacking the messenger.

 

[Krusty]

Okay, they can beat the F-22's 100 times out of 100 times in a dog fight and in a real fight they would still get shot down 100/100 times.

>Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren't able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.

So you're suggesting because the USA got something wrong about air combat 40 years ago, 40 years later it couldn't be correct? The air to air missile technology was at infancy in Vietnam. Once they became reliable, dog fighting became dead. Google the last dog fight kill, 30 years ago.

Also, the F-4 misconception about the gun is hilarious. Top gun training program had 99% of to do with the F-4 improvement not the gun added.

View attachment 16531

The vast majority are by missiles, and this is when the technology is nothing compared to today.


You're comparing a tank to a plane? The f-22 is the equivalent of special forces for land troops, why would you send your special forces alone even though you know they can fight alone? You're comparing planes to tanks and at the same time comparing special troops to regular troops. There isn't a link here. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

F22 is special forces? F22 is an air superiority fighter according to the USAF. And it's role and purpose is very clear. Do you know what air superiority fighters are and what they are expected to do?
I give up. I have made my point and you bring in deceptions. You win. I do not want to carry this argument on anymore.

 

[Sunstersun]

F22 is special forces? F22 is an air superiority fighter according to the USAF. And it's role and purpose is very clear. Do you know what air superiority fighters are and what they are expected to do?
I give up. I have made my point and you bring in deceptions. You win. I do not want to carry this argument on anymore.

Of course I win, you don't know what a metaphor is even though you compared a situation with a plane to a tank.

and thank you for conceding on the Eurotyphoon, Dogfighting and F-4 point.


from oxford dictionary.

- "A figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable."

The F-22 is comparable to special forces because there are like 3000 f-15/f-16's in the US air force while there are only 200 F-22's. Thus you don't send F-22's alone or to do shit that F-15/6's can do as well.

 

[Krusty]

Of course I win, you don't know what a metaphor is even though you compared a situation with a plane to a tank.

and thank you for conceding on the Eurotyphoon, Dogfighting and F-4 point.


from oxford dictionary.

- "A figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable."

The F-22 is comparable to special forces because there are like 3000 f-15/f-16's in the US air force while there are only 200 F-22's. Thus you don't send F-22's alone or to do shit that F-15/6's can do as well.

I concede nothing except the fact that you do not even know the basic definition and role of an air superiority fighter. Stealth still is overrated and you use deception to cover up your ignorance. but, Whatever helps you sleep at night

 

[Sunstersun]

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I conceded nothing except you do not even know the basic definition and role of an air superiority fighter. Stealth still is overrated and you use deception to cover up your ignorance.

I mean you can concede whatever you want, that is your prerogative. People can believe the earth is flat, people can believe dog fighting is relevant in modern air combat, people can believe stealth is overrated. Stupidity comes in all shapes and sizes.

 

[Krusty]

Stupidity comes in all shapes and sizes.

For once, I agree with what you have to say. You are proof.

 

[pmaitra]

@Sunstersun said: "The f-22 is the equivalent of special forces for land troops, . . "
@Krusty read that and asked: "F22 is special forces?"



Edited to add evidence backing up claim.

Spoiler: Exhibit

 

[Krusty]

Stats, performance metrics, technology, marketing propaganda etc are all secondary to the fact that F22 is probably the worlds only frontline air superiority fighter which needs fighter escort in contested airspace. An amazing feat of stealth technology indeed.

 

[Krusty]

@Sunstersun said: "The f-22 is the equivalent of special forces for land troops, . . "
@Krusty read that and asked: "F22 is special forces?"

thank you for pointing it out i will edit it and add 'equivalent to'.

Edit: @pmaitra i see what this post is for. Well played

 

[Sunstersun]

F22 is probably the worlds only frontline air superiority fighter which needs fighter escort in contested airspace. An amazing feat of stealth technology indeed.

Just because something is escorted doesn't mean it needs to be escorted.

Once again, why take the risk with a very expensive plane?

Also ignoring part of the f-22 and f-35 capabilities is network fusion.

 

[aditya10r]

Just because something is escorted doesn't mean it needs to be escorted.

Once again, why take the risk with a very expensive plane?

Also ignoring part of the f-22 and f-35 capabilities is network fusion.

Isnt f-22 raptor is called the most advanced jet fighter of all time.It still requires an escort,it costs fucking 350 million usd a piece,i can have 6 f-16's for that much and still be able to complete my mission.

In an actual combat scenario(like the one in syria where russian jets are flying with AAM's and they have deployed ADS) one simply cannot divert so many resources to contest in one single mission.

 

[Sunstersun]

stealth is overrated, but India's 3 development projects are the FGFA (Stealth aircraft) the Light STEALTH aircraft, and the AMCA another stealth aircarft.

No but trust guys, dog fighting is relevant, f-22 sucks because it flies with other planes and stealth is overrated. I've seen the light. Get Modi on the phone and fire all the stealth engineers. China, Russia and USA are suckers for falling for LM marketing.

 

[Krusty]

Once again, why take the risk with a very expensive plane?

Simple. Because it isn't fit enough to enter combat solo.how many examples Can you cite where US has done this in the past? It defeats the whole purpose of evolving designs and calling it 'next gen'? It makes no sense on any level. Those older F15s are there for a reason. Military planning is methodical. Everything is in place for a reason. so what was the reason for the fighter escort. Do tell me. Or do You think military planners just rolled the dice and decided F15s should provide escort to the most advanced platform which supposedly takes out 10 of the best European cutting edge fighters single handedly?

 

[Sunstersun]

Isnt f-22 raptor is called the most advanced jet fighter of all time.It still requires an escort,it costs fucking 350 million usd a piece,i can have 6 f-16's for that much and still be able to complete my mission.

In an actual combat scenario(like the one in syria where russian jets are flying with AAM's and they have deployed ADS) one simply cannot divert so many resources to contest in one single mission.

It doesn't require anything, it can fly without an escort or with an escort. Why would you fly without one when you don't have to?

In an actual combat mission the situation is different. So why are people telling me the f-22 sucks because of a non combat mission?

>i can have 6 f-16's for that much and still be able to complete my mission.

Yes you can complete missions in syria with whatever you like. The F-22 is designed for countries with modern planes like Russia and China and perhaps soon to be India.

 

[pmaitra]

thank you for pointing it out i will edit it and add 'equivalent to'.

Edit: @pmaitra i see what this post is for. Well played

No man, it is not what you are thinking. My personal experience is that it is very frustrating when one does not read what one responds to and goes off on a tangent. It is very bad when it escalates to gratuitous slug-fest.

 

[aditya10r]

It doesn't require anything, it can fly without an escort or with an escort. Why would you fly without one when you don't have to?

In an actual combat mission the situation is different. So why are people telling me the f-22 sucks because of a non combat mission?

>i can have 6 f-16's for that much and still be able to complete my mission.

Yes you can complete missions in syria with whatever you like. The F-22 is designed for countries with modern planes like Russia and China.

If i were sitting in an f-22 which costs that much,i expect much more,if i am charged 6x-7x more then i expect more than that jet than a 50mn usd one like f-16.
F-16 can carry out the same mission as f-22 in an enemy airspace while still costing way less than that.

Plus the f-35(which is being called the best thing after raptor-i dont know how when it is running into so many problems with even as small issues like weight of pilot) loses to the f-16,i start to doubt it.

Well russian and chinese jets are more like improved and very much better versions of their past jets like mig-29's and su-27/30's.

A jet with a long range radar,LO design an ECM systems with data linking can carry out the same mission with same efficiency as the F-22 while still costing way less.

A su-pak-fa can be taken out by a rafale or EFT or an improved f-16,you dont need an F-22 raptor to do that.

 

[Sunstersun]

Simple. Because it isn't fit enough to enter combat solo.how many examples Can you cite where US has done this in the past? It defeats the whole purpose of evolving designs and calling it 'next gen'? It makes no sense on any level. Those older F15s are there for a reason. Military planning is methodical. Everything is in place for a reason. so what was the reason for the fighter escort. Do tell me. Or do You think military planners just rolled the dice and decided F15s should provide escort to the most advanced platform which supposedly takes out 10 of the best European cutting edge fighter single handedly?

I took your word on the syria mission thing because I assumed you did you research alas, you did not.

The F-22 was escorted because it wasn't performing an air superiority role, it was performing a ground strike.

>Speaking at a Pentagon press briefing, Army Lt. Gen. William Mayville, director of operations for the Joint Chiefs, confirmed the F-22 was used to strike an IS command-and-control facility on the ground in Raqqah using precision-guided munitions.

>Depending on loadout, the jet can carry six AIM-120 advanced, medium-range, air-to-air missiles or two AIM-120s and two GBU-32 joint direct-attack munitions for air-to-ground strikes. It also carries an internal 20mm gun and two AIM-9 Sidewinders in internal weapons bays.

So the F-22 without any anti air weapons was escorted. CALL THE PRESS THE F-22 SUCKS!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/23/syria-air-strikes-f-22-raptor/16105291/