Successful user trial of MSMC

[Shaitan]

I believe it was ARDE, which is one of the many establishments that come under the broad umbrella called DRDO.

Yes, but the private comp is involved in the design stage or manufacturing stage somehow.

 

[Shaitan]

As someone who has had some amount of play time with both, let me tell you that the problem with the msmc is not one of reliability. Its one of ergonomics. The gun has a terrible weight distribution, and should have been much lighter for the size, Its hard to point up. Nothing impossible, but for sustained periods where exhaustion comes into play, you're going to have troubles.
Its not small/light enough to be fired with one hand at short ranges either.

The mciws is a different ball game alltogether. For one, its not engineered by the ofb, but rather by Alpha tech Ltd., a private firm based out of bangalore i think. Only the barrel is made by the ofb, and is similar to the insas in certain terms. That shouldnt be a problem,because the latter has a beautiful barrel.
I've had to remove my video, as i was contacted by higher ups to take it down.
But as someone who has had a few chances to play around with it. Dont be fooled by its rather simplistic looks.
This gun is more ergonomical than a tavor, and easier to point than an ak.

A the moment of writing, 7 protoypes exist, and a sum total of ~12000 rounds have been fires under range conditions, with problem being due to faulty ammo. THe ia has a sure winner on their hands

The design is of course out of the ARDE. But the prototyping and ergonomics are solely, astra, other than the barrel, and a few minor components, which they decided to hold back on, so as not to hand a private firm a live firearm. Now that in itself is the worst kind of bullshit.

Quoted from him.

So I guess the private firm will be the integrator of this gun, everything minus the barrel will come from them.

 

[Twinblade]

Quoted from him.

So I guess the private firm will be the integrator of this gun, everything minus the barrel will come from them.

Alpha ? That company works in the electronics domain. AESA modules, EW suite components, Nirbhay seeker and likes.

Yes, but the private comp is involved in the design stage or manufacturing stage somehow.

The involvement can be anything from design verification to simulation. Private sector firms have been involved in the MSMC/JVPC/Milaap project as well.

[pdf]http://www.zeusnumerix.com//public/downloads/ZeusNumerix_CFD_Noise_Estimation_Suppression_Automatic_Gun_PX03.pdf[/pdf]

From his tone, it sounds like small arms isnt even that important, didnt even mention multi cal rifle.

Small arms division is a very small division of ARDE. They have bigger projects at hand, namely glide bomb, penetrater bombs, ATAGS, Pinaka, tank ammunition etc things that are far more critical than a rifle. Besides, ARDE recently called out a tender for supply of MSMC parts, which coincided with the news of fresh round of trials, which indicates that they have probably taken the user input and done some modifications.

 

[arnabmit]

This is what DRDO always wanted, and practices to a large extent.

DRDO will develop systems out of subsystems developed by private sector, then give the system back to private sector for production.

Dr. Avinash Chander said "DRDO is not a competitor of private sector, DRDO rides above private sector"

What DRDO doesnt want to invest in and wants private sector to be capable of are things like FABs, CNC ops, Precision forging, making lenses, making silicone wafers etc.

DRDO expects Indian private sector to supply these, which DRDO can use to develop systems, develop prototypes, get them passed, then give the design back to the private sector to mass produce.

There is private involvement already. The guy who made this video -

Indian Multi Caliber Individual Weapon System (MCIWS) Prototype | Tune.pk

said in another forum that ALPHA DESIGN TECHNOLOGIES PVT. LTD. from Bangalore engineered the Multi Calbier Rifle in trials.

http://www.adtl.co.in/profile.html

 

[arnabmit]

I believe it was ARDE, which is one of the many establishments that come under the broad umbrella called DRDO.

Yes, ARDE it is, under the umbrella of DRDO.

 

[Shaitan]

Alpha ? That company works in the electronics domain. AESA modules, EW suite components, Nirbhay seeker and likes.

They make small arms optics as well.

ALPHA DESIGN TECHNOLOGIES PVT. LTD.
http://www.adtl.co.in/nvd.html
http://www.adtl.co.in/product.html

That pdf isnt working.

 

[Shaitan]

Besided ARDE recently called out a tender for supply of MSMC parts, which coincided with the news of fresh round of trials, which indicates that they have probably taken the user input and done some modifications.

You can post source?

 

[Twinblade]

You can post source?

It does not exclusively say its MSMC, but it is MSMC.
[pdf]http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/drdojsp/downloadtndr.jsp?tenderName=6471&McrId=ARDE*Armament%20Research%20&%20Development%20Establishment&p=ARDE15ATT081SPECS.pdf[/pdf]

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

No, AAC pilots carry AK or 9mm, MSMC will be replacing 9mm carbine under use by Army not only Officers but as well as JCO, Drivers etc ..



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Excess than 600rpm is wastage, MSMC is design to meet Armed forces requirement which is made by Armed forces, It is not design for civilian market or another army ..



=================

If they put an requirement than there will be following versions ..

Yes, but most modern SMGs have ROF far greater than 600rpm.
And keeping in mind the export ambitions of the present govt we shd also make weapons which are export worthy apart frm fulfilling our AFs' requirements.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

My experience say other wise so does any other service man in Infantry of any nation, That is logical and can be very attractive for export but as of now its design for our needs ..

Yes, but most modern SMGs have ROF far greater than 600rpm And keeping in mind the export ambitions of the present govt we shd also make weapons which are export worthy apart frm fulfilling our AFs' requirements.

 

[delta]

err....what's the status of the gun now? i still haven't seen it in the hands of the security forces.

 

[aliyah]

any pic ??? ........... ............... .....................

 

[vkp171083]

What will happen to our JVPC Program

 

[Indx TechStyle]

IDN TAKE: The Modern Sub Machine Carbine (MSMC) : Advanced And Lethal Carbine For Armed Forces

by Koustav K

The Modern Sub Machine Carbine (MSMC) submachine gun also known as “Joint Venture Protective Carbine (JVPC)” was born from the INSAS (Indian Small Arms System) program, which originally included three weapons - the 5.56mm INSAS assault rifle, the 5.56mm INSAS squad automatic / LMG, based on the rifle, and a compact carbine. The INSAS rifle and LMG are already in service with Indian armed forces.

The Modern Sub Machine Carbine / MSMC submachine gun is intended for Indian Special Operation troops, but it also can make a good Personal Defence Weapon for vehicle and gun crews and other non-infantry personnel operating in combat zones. MSMC is a replacement for aging second World War Sterling 9mm carbine, will be issued to Officers, JCO and drivers etc. who are manning the 9mm carbine in Army.

OFB Multi Caliber Individual Weapon System​

The MSMC submachine gun is a gas operated weapon, utilizing rotary bolt locking and a gas piston, located above the barrel. The receiver appears to be made from sheet steel, with outer polymer housing with integral pistol grip. The magazines are inserted into the pistol grip. Buttstock is of telescoped type. Safety / fire mode selector is ambidextrous and conveniently located above the trigger. Standard iron sights are complemented by the Picatinny rail, which can host a wide array of additional day and night sighting equipment.

Another unusual accessory for the MSMC submachine gun is the bayonet lug, which is located above the barrel, just in front of the receiver. The weight of the Carbine is 3 kg & length is 500mm. The other technologies that have been incorporated in the MSMC include a unique semi bullpup weapon feed system behind the trigger mechanism, noise reduction technology and the integration of laser spot designator for close quarter battle. The MSMC by having more compact, pistol-type layout, which also offers better balance and better manoeuvrability, especially in confined spaces. Army asked to do some improvements in the weapon. The two pin assembly, quick fitting suppressor and polymer magazines need some work. Scientists at ARDE and Small Arms Factories are working to make them even better.

The new round appears to be of same concept that experimental American Colt MARS, as it has bottlenecked case 30mm long, loaded with light, pointed bullet with steel penetrator core. The bullet weight is 2.6 gram and muzzle velocity from 300mm carbine barrel is listed as 650 m/s, resulting in muzzle energy value of 550 Joules - similar to modern pistol cartridges and can hit accurately to 200m. The cartridge, known as 5.56x30 MINSAS, offers effective range of about 200 to 300 meters, with good penetration against body armour. The aim was to defeat enemy soldiers protected with soft-body armour at a range of 200m.

The ammunition for MSMC was of a conventional type with the bullet cylindro-ogival for better ballistics. A steel insert has been introduced on the tip of the bullet to achieve better penetration power and it enhanced the ammunition performance to a level superior to that of its contemporaries. The early carbines for this round, known as MINSAS, were based on the INSAS rifle, lightened and scaled down for shortened round.

The Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) has developed the final version of the MSMC with the aid of Ordnance Factories. As of now, the Modern Sub Machine Carbine / MSMC submachine gun is in its final stages of trials by the Indian military. According to ARDE, the MSMC will be given to the Armed Forces for trials in various terrains. Several tests will be carried out on this new carbine and its induction is likely in less than a year once the trials are deemed satisfactory. The DRDO's Directorate of Quality, Reliability, and Safety has been placed in charge of tracking the weapon's progress. 50 MSMCs are scheduled to be issued for user trials in 2016. “Final trials are underway to ensure 99.7% reliability for the new carbine.” said an ARDE scientist.

Koustav K is an ardent fan of IDN and a keen defense enthusiast. This piece on the India's Advanced Assault Rifle was written exclusively for IDN. Views expressed are his own.
Admin - IDN

 

[Bornubus]

MP 9 is already replacing Sterling carbine in large numbers.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Limited numbers only for Ghataks, Large numbers cannot be archived via imports ..

MP 9 is already replacing Sterling carbine in large numbers.

 

[Prashant12]

DAC meeting for #MakeinIndia 4 DRDO JVP carbine.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Cross Posting
India Tests New Carbines

Pune-based Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE) is getting ready to offer indigenously developed Joint Venture Protective Carbine (JVPC) carbine for the Indian Army

The Indian Army is to use a variety of new generation carbines for its existing weaponry. The state-owned Pune-based Armaments Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) is already testing a 5.56 caliber carbine to replace existing Russians carbines. Simultaneously the Indian Army is also searching for carbines in the global market.

ARDE is developing a new Modern Sub-machine Carbine (MSMC), which will replace the Russian 9mm-caliber carbine currently used by the Indian Army and the Indian paramilitary forces.

“

Final trials are underway to ensure 99.7% reliability for the new carbine”, said an ARDE scientist. The MSMC is effective up to a range of 200 meters.

However, a senior Indian Army officer said that they would prefer to use carbines from overseas market and not depend solely on the homemade MSMC.

The New MSCMC

The MSMC was originally part of the Indian Small Arms System (INSAS) Program, undertaken by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), initiated in 1982 to provide an indigenous small arms weapons system for the Indian armed forces. A rifle, a light machine gun (LMG) and a carbine were eventually designed as part of the INSAS family.

According to DRDO, introduction of soft-body armour rendered the erstwhile 9 mm carbine, which was operational with the Indian Army, ineffective. This led to the development of the 5.56 mm MSMC.

The problem also lay with the concept of using the same ammunition for all three weapon systems, the LMG, rifle and the carbine. The 5.56 ammunition proved to be too heavy for the short range MSMC, giving a higher recoil and flash effect than was desirable.

The new MSMC features include: a semi bull-pup weapon feed system behind the trigger mechanism, retention of butt, fitted in housing configuration, noise-reduction technology using CFD analysis for development of silencers; reflex sight and passive night sight; and integration of laser spot designator on MSMC for close quarter battle.

Besides, the MSMC has a pistol grip, which allows single-hand firing capability; magazine feeding through pistol grip; retractable butt for better stability while firing; ambidextrous cocking; fire selector to suit left and right hand firers, and, a three-point sling for better carrying and maneuverability.

The ammunition for MSMC is of conventional type with the bullet cylindro-ogival for better ballistics as compared to a 9 mm round. A steel insert has been introduced in the tip of the bullet to achieve better penetration power.

Source>>

 

[pmaitra]

Can we please stick to MSMC in this thread?

 

[sthf]

Final trials are underway to ensure 99.7% reliability for the new carbine

That is sub par reliability. Roughly thrice as bad as M4 if open source figures are to be believed and M4 itself is not known for its reliability.

I hate to say this but maybe phoren maal is the way forward.